Proposals for Restored Gulf Coast Service

[A Voice]

It does not make any sense to start a three times a week service when it is funded by the local folks. That is what you get by extending the Sunset. Everyone that is involved in planning this that I have talked to is firmly opposed to this idea. The restored service will be a daily service.

This was my point earlier. Until something is done about that hitch at Pensacola, by restoring pre-Katrina service, you might as well walk where you're going. I apologize to the folks in west Florida but I'm not the one that laid the tracks. The only people who benefited from the eastern half of Sunset were the few people who had the time to make a very leisurely trip between New Orleans and Jacksonville. I agree that train service along the coast needs to return incrementally. Bootstrapped back into service. The logical way to do this is with some sort of service between Mobile and New Orleans on an at least daily basis. One problem is with state and local funding. People, in the rest of the country have no idea how difficult it is to find a few million dollars to spare in the Mississippi state budget.

I'm not sure what the final solution will be. Politically, it's impossible to bypass Pensacola but it's a practical impediment to the service, without some new trackage.

New trackage isn't going to happen, nor is it necessary; That's little more than a fantasy (at least for passenger service). Sure, in theory a dedicated, direct, high-speed passenger only line would be great, but we aren't even getting a new route in the Northeast Corridor. You have to consider the bigger picture. Remember that while the route (and perhaps schedule) isn't ideal for local passengers, they aren't the only consideration; It is much less of an impediment for through passengers travelling from west of New Orleans to/from Florida.

Again, nobody is proposing a restoration of pre-Katrina service (an eastern extension of the Sunset Limited). What is under consideration is either an eastern extension of the City of New Orleans (to Florida) or a stand-alone Mobile to New Orleans train (both daily). While an incremental approach is normally the correct one, in this case the costs are reasonable enough for a long-distance train extension that should arguably be the first step. Should the local train option be chosen, it will have to be state funded under current law, and you still have that Mobile to Jacksonville gap.

 

[jis]

Once we decide to return from the fantasy-land of anyone building any new trackage to go around Pensacola or whatever, and bother to read the actual proposal we will come to realize that what is most likely to happen is a New Orleans to Orlando service, either as an extension of the CONO or as a standalone daily service. It will be funded by a mix of federal appropriation and some local funding (latter mainly for establishing and maintaining the necessary en route stations. The Wicker-Booker effort in Senate is the one that will eventually lead to funding this if anything materializes at all. Absent some federal funding this is not going to happen. At present its chances look pretty good even after the election.

The Mobile to New Orleans train options has the worst financial performance of them all, so will happen only if the entire lot is funded by the states, which they won't, is the current prognostication.

No matter what, the service between New Orleans and Jacksonville will be a service at a leisurely pace, and no one that is actually working on getting it going views Pensacola as an impediment. It ain't gonna be 110mph or 125mph blazing fast service.It will be a 60-79mph service on not the ideal straight route (since that does not exist) The proposed timetables are available in the Southern Rail Commission sponsored study done by Amtrak, and those working on the proposed restoration are quite comfortable with those.

But as they say, you can't tell for sure until the fat lady sings.

 

[Don Newcomb]

One thing that any proposal needs to take into account is the coordination (or lack thereof) of train schedules at New Orleans.

This is the current situation

AV DP

CONO 0934 1345

Crescent 1932 0700

Sunset 2140 0900

If these schedules hold, the only passengers who will be able to continue from New Orleans to the Gulf Coast and return by the same route, without an overnight stay in New Orleans, will be those on the CoNO. No one could arrive on the Sunset from, say, Houston and continue to Biloxi, without staying overnight in New Orleans. No one can currently travel from Houston to Jackson, MS by train without an overnight stay in New Orleans. I'm not sure if one can get from Atlanta to Houston without an overnight lay-over someplace. Same for traveling from Birmingham to Biloxi.

Would continuation of CoNO to Mobile be better than what's currently offered? Yes, marginally. I could maybe take the train to visit family in Nebraska, but I'll still have to drive to Hattiesburg (or Picayune) to catch the Crescent to any points northeast. What would be ideal is if all three trains managed to be in NOLA at the same time but that privilege has been accorded to Chicago.

 

[jis]

Indeed. Sunset Limited was eliminated as a contender because it does not provide Daily Service and it as well as the Crescent provide for very unattractive timings at the west end of the route - specially between New Orleans and Mobile. After that all the combinations of local service (New Orleans - Mobile) and LD service were considered and the CONO connection was found to be financially the most viable, requiring least amount of subsidy. Hence the first choice of CONO run through.

The other thing going for the CONO continuation is that it provides for a single seat ride from Chicago to Florida - not the most ideal one but one of sorts.

The "ideal" of getting all trains to arrive into New Orleans in the morning and depart in the afternoon is not realizable due to scheduling constraints that their other end, and equipment turns impose.

 

[Steve4031]

The CNO does not arrive at 9:34. It is in the afternoon after 58 departs.

 

[jis]

The CNO does not arrive at 9:34. It is in the afternoon after 58 departs.

Actually I have no idea what numbers he is quoting. The arrivals and departures from the proposal are:

South/East bound

New Orleans a: 3:32pm, d: 5:00pm

West/North bound

New Orleans a: 9:30am d: 1:45pm


The arrival from Chicago and departure to Chicago remain substantially unchanged.

 

[Don Newcomb]

The CNO does not arrive at 9:34. It is in the afternoon after 58 departs.

I read the wrong column. CNO arrives New Orleans at 1532. However, this does not change the fact that both the Sunset and Crescent depart New Orleans before the CNO arrives. The Sunset and Crescent both arrive in New Orleans after the CNO has departed. The way I read this, anyone who wants to change trains in New Orleans will be in for an overnight lay-over there. (No?) This pretty much squashes the idea of any practical utility to rail travel in the Gulf South. Unless you want to go to or from Chicago, it's not much use. If I'm wrong, please tell me how I'd get from Houston to Biloxi by train or maybe Houston to Atlanta.

I understand that, as has been mentioned, to get Federal funding, the restored service has to be a continuation of some existing long-distance route. So, this may be the best option. It just does not seem to be a very good option.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

One thing that any proposal needs to take into account is the coordination (or lack thereof) of train schedules at New Orleans.

This is the current situation

AV DP

CONO 0934 1345

Crescent 1932 0700

Sunset 2140 0900

If these schedules hold, the only passengers who will be able to continue from New Orleans to the Gulf Coast and return by the same route, without an overnight stay in New Orleans, will be those on the CoNO. No one could arrive on the Sunset from, say, Houston and continue to Biloxi, without staying overnight in New Orleans. No one can currently travel from Houston to Jackson, MS by train without an overnight stay in New Orleans. I'm not sure if one can get from Atlanta to Houston without an overnight lay-over someplace. Same for traveling from Birmingham to Biloxi.

Would continuation of CoNO to Mobile be better than what's currently offered? Yes, marginally. I could maybe take the train to visit family in Nebraska, but I'll still have to drive to Hattiesburg (or Picayune) to catch the Crescent to any points northeast. What would be ideal is if all three trains managed to be in NOLA at the same time but that privilege has been accorded to Chicago.

If by Northeast you meant Atlanta or Charlotte, than the gulf coast train will not help with that. However, if you meant the Northeastern US, transfers will be available in Jacksonville to the Silver trains.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

One thing that any proposal needs to take into account is the coordination (or lack thereof) of train schedules at New Orleans.

This is the current situation

AV DP

CONO 0934 1345

Crescent 1932 0700

Sunset 2140 0900

If these schedules hold, the only passengers who will be able to continue from New Orleans to the Gulf Coast and return by the same route, without an overnight stay in New Orleans, will be those on the CoNO. No one could arrive on the Sunset from, say, Houston and continue to Biloxi, without staying overnight in New Orleans. No one can currently travel from Houston to Jackson, MS by train without an overnight stay in New Orleans. I'm not sure if one can get from Atlanta to Houston without an overnight lay-over someplace. Same for traveling from Birmingham to Biloxi.

Would continuation of CoNO to Mobile be better than what's currently offered? Yes, marginally. I could maybe take the train to visit family in Nebraska, but I'll still have to drive to Hattiesburg (or Picayune) to catch the Crescent to any points northeast. What would be ideal is if all three trains managed to be in NOLA at the same time but that privilege has been accorded to Chicago.

First things first, get the NOL-ORL or NOL-JAX running again.

But absolutely the lack of connectivity in NOL is a IMO a big problem restricting the effectiveness of Amtrak. You should be able to get from Florida to Texas without an overnight stay and without having to go to Chicago (even if the CONO extends to Florida and you can do CONO/TE going all the way north to Chicago to go all the way south is a waste of time).

My SL reschedule proposal: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/65927-proposal-for-extending-crescent-to-sas-improving-te-schedule/?p=640928

The privilege of a same day transfer should not be limited to just Chicago. It works well for cities with good access to Chicago but not for others. Plus, you can escape the gridlock/hassles going into CHI. In the old days of the National Limited, you can make the change at KCY. Ideally if the Cresent/CONO and SL line up NOL can be the second Chicago. Or if you do the Crescent Star maybe Dallas or Ft. Worth could be the second Chicago.

 

[west point]

One possible solution for the Crescent. Run a dedicated thruway ( not the dog ) Hattiesburg - Gulfport connecting to the NOL - JAX - ORL train. The Jackson section thruway on the dog would not be needed once passengers could connect in NOL - FL. Although not ideal with a thruway bus in the middle it would allow persons from Greenville - Spartanburg - ATL - BHM - Meridian - Hattiesburg to travel mostly by train to Florida. That would eliminate the gosh awful BHM - ATL - CLT ( change trains ) - Raleigh ( change trains ) - JAX / FL.

Only if UP / BNSF would allow speed up of Sunset east of SAS could passengers connect to CNO Florida. Another possibility would be for NOL east Passengers off the SL would be a thruway Houston - NOL ? HOU - NOL is ~350 road miles so a 6-1/2 hour thruway bus instead of 9-1/2 hour SL.-

 

[Don Newcomb]

New trackage isn't going to happen, nor is it necessary; That's little more than a fantasy (at least for passenger service). Sure, in theory a dedicated, direct, high-speed passenger only line would be great, but we aren't even getting a new route in the Northeast Corridor. You have to consider the bigger picture. Remember that while the route (and perhaps schedule) isn't ideal for local passengers, they aren't the only consideration; It is much less of an impediment for through passengers travelling from west of New Orleans to/from Florida.

Again, nobody is proposing a restoration of pre-Katrina service (an eastern extension of the Sunset Limited). What is under consideration is either an eastern extension of the City of New Orleans (to Florida) or a stand-alone Mobile to New Orleans train (both daily). While an incremental approach is normally the correct one, in this case the costs are reasonable enough for a long-distance train extension that should arguably be the first step. Should the local train option be chosen, it will have to be state funded under current law, and you still have that Mobile to Jacksonville gap.

I understand about the trackage but was only trying to point out that a shortcut from Bay Minette to somewhere north of Cantonment would make Pensacola a little more rational.

While it has been stated repeatedly that restoration of pre-Katrina service is not an option, several members here seem to have a hard time accepting that.

First things first, get the NOL-ORL or NOL-JAX running again.

But absolutely the lack of connectivity in NOL is a IMO a big problem restricting the effectiveness of Amtrak. You should be able to get from Florida to Texas without an overnight stay and without having to go to Chicago (even if the CONO extends to Florida and you can do CONO/TE going all the way north to Chicago to go all the way south is a waste of time).

My SL reschedule proposal: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/65927-proposal-for-extending-crescent-to-sas-improving-te-schedule/?p=640928

The privilege of a same day transfer should not be limited to just Chicago. It works well for cities with good access to Chicago but not for others. Plus, you can escape the gridlock/hassles going into CHI. In the old days of the National Limited, you can make the change at KCY. Ideally if the Cresent/CONO and SL line up NOL can be the second Chicago. Or if you do the Crescent Star maybe Dallas or Ft. Worth could be the second Chicago.

From what everyone says, NOL-JAX is not an option. I'm glad we could get the lack of NOL connections into the discussion. From my point of view, this is one of the most serious issues with passenger rail service in the Southeast.

One possible solution for the Crescent. Run a dedicated thruway ( not the dog ) Hattiesburg - Gulfport connecting to the NOL - JAX - ORL train. The Jackson section thruway on the dog would not be needed once passengers could connect in NOL - FL. Although not ideal with a thruway bus in the middle it would allow persons from Greenville - Spartanburg - ATL - BHM - Meridian - Hattiesburg to travel mostly by train to Florida. That would eliminate the gosh awful BHM - ATL - CLT ( change trains ) - Raleigh ( change trains ) - JAX / FL.

Only if UP / BNSF would allow speed up of Sunset east of SAS could passengers connect to CNO Florida. Another possibility would be for NOL east Passengers off the SL would be a thruway Houston - NOL ? HOU - NOL is ~350 road miles so a 6-1/2 hour thruway bus instead of 9-1/2 hour SL.-

I'm still trying to sort out most of what you're proposing but if there's no NOL-JAX train, I'm not sure how it would work. Yes, it would be nice if there were a way to get the schedules in NOL to match up better.

Sorry if I got any quotes wrong. I'm still getting used to this forum's quoting and editing system.

 

[Steve4031]

This same day connection is difficult to accomplish with the crescent and sunset limited. If the crescent arrives early enough in New Orleans to connect to 1, then it would be passing through Atlanta in the middle of the night. If the schedule for 1 is changed to later, the connection to the coast starlight in LA is broken.

 

[Don Newcomb]

This same day connection is difficult to accomplish with the crescent and sunset limited. If the crescent arrives early enough in New Orleans to connect to 1, then it would be passing through Atlanta in the middle of the night. If the schedule for 1 is changed to later, the connection to the coast starlight in LA is broken.

Yep. People care about Chicago and L.A. No one cares about NOL, so we don't bother getting the connections to sync there. Low usage of Amtrak in NOL then becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. Small wonder that Amtrak ditched the NOL-JAX run at the first convenient opportunity.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak has an entire system of trains that connect in practically every city where a useful connection can happen. In order to orchestrate that, there has to be a city where they don't. Given its night life, and its relatively small ridership, New Orleans is the one chosen for non working connections.

Which honestly makes sense.

 

[Eric S]

I think it's a bit over the top to say that no one cares about NOL - rather that with only one train a day (or less), it's not really possible to make connections on the NOL end and the other (CHI, LAX, various NEC points) ends as well.

I haven't toyed around with the schedules for these trains the way some have, so I can't say for sure, but I'd imagine it's difficult if not impossible to come up with a set schedules that make connections in NOL and still maintain various other connections in CHI, LAX, and elsewhere, and also keep decent times at (some or most) major en-route markets (whether ATL, MEM, or others).

 

[Don Newcomb]

Amtrak has an entire system of trains that connect in practically every city where a useful connection can happen. In order to orchestrate that, there has to be a city where they don't. Given its night life, and its relatively small ridership, New Orleans is the one chosen for non working connections.

Which honestly makes sense.

I wonder if there is anyone here (besides me) who lives within 100 miles of NOL?

 

[jis]

Ultimately it will be a competition between how much revenue accrues from Sunset to Coast Starlight Connection in LAX vs. Sunset to other trains connection at NOL on the one hand for rescheduling the Sunset, and on the other hand the revenue from beyond New York passengers on the Crescent vs. those transferring from the Crescent to other trains at NOL, and the potential loss of Atlanta ridership due to oh-dark thirty time at Atlanta that is the consequence of rescheduling the Crescent to make the connections in NOL. My bet is that connections at NOL will be sacrificed.

 

[A Voice]

New trackage isn't going to happen, nor is it necessary; That's little more than a fantasy (at least for passenger service). Sure, in theory a dedicated, direct, high-speed passenger only line would be great, but we aren't even getting a new route in the Northeast Corridor. You have to consider the bigger picture. Remember that while the route (and perhaps schedule) isn't ideal for local passengers, they aren't the only consideration; It is much less of an impediment for through passengers travelling from west of New Orleans to/from Florida.

Again, nobody is proposing a restoration of pre-Katrina service (an eastern extension of the Sunset Limited). What is under consideration is either an eastern extension of the City of New Orleans (to Florida) or a stand-alone Mobile to New Orleans train (both daily). While an incremental approach is normally the correct one, in this case the costs are reasonable enough for a long-distance train extension that should arguably be the first step. Should the local train option be chosen, it will have to be state funded under current law, and you still have that Mobile to Jacksonville gap.

I understand about the trackage but was only trying to point out that a shortcut from Bay Minette to somewhere north of Cantonment would make Pensacola a little more rational.

While it has been stated repeatedly that restoration of pre-Katrina service is not an option, several members here seem to have a hard time accepting that.

First things first, get the NOL-ORL or NOL-JAX running again.

But absolutely the lack of connectivity in NOL is a IMO a big problem restricting the effectiveness of Amtrak. You should be able to get from Florida to Texas without an overnight stay and without having to go to Chicago (even if the CONO extends to Florida and you can do CONO/TE going all the way north to Chicago to go all the way south is a waste of time).

My SL reschedule proposal: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/65927-proposal-for-extending-crescent-to-sas-improving-te-schedule/?p=640928

The privilege of a same day transfer should not be limited to just Chicago. It works well for cities with good access to Chicago but not for others. Plus, you can escape the gridlock/hassles going into CHI. In the old days of the National Limited, you can make the change at KCY. Ideally if the Cresent/CONO and SL line up NOL can be the second Chicago. Or if you do the Crescent Star maybe Dallas or Ft. Worth could be the second Chicago.

From what everyone says, NOL-JAX is not an option. I'm glad we could get the lack of NOL connections into the discussion. From my point of view, this is one of the most serious issues with passenger rail service in the Southeast.

One possible solution for the Crescent. Run a dedicated thruway ( not the dog ) Hattiesburg - Gulfport connecting to the NOL - JAX - ORL train. The Jackson section thruway on the dog would not be needed once passengers could connect in NOL - FL. Although not ideal with a thruway bus in the middle it would allow persons from Greenville - Spartanburg - ATL - BHM - Meridian - Hattiesburg to travel mostly by train to Florida. That would eliminate the gosh awful BHM - ATL - CLT ( change trains ) - Raleigh ( change trains ) - JAX / FL.

Only if UP / BNSF would allow speed up of Sunset east of SAS could passengers connect to CNO Florida. Another possibility would be for NOL east Passengers off the SL would be a thruway Houston - NOL ? HOU - NOL is ~350 road miles so a 6-1/2 hour thruway bus instead of 9-1/2 hour SL.-

I'm still trying to sort out most of what you're proposing but if there's no NOL-JAX train, I'm not sure how it would work. Yes, it would be nice if there were a way to get the schedules in NOL to match up better.

Sorry if I got any quotes wrong. I'm still getting used to this forum's quoting and editing system.

Again, extension of the City of New Orleans to Orlando will restore train service to the entire New Orleans to Jacksonville segment. That is not the only proposal on the table, a short distance state-funded train to Mobile is another option, but the extension to Florida seems the most likely as it arguably produces the greatest benefits for the (federal) subsidy required.

 

[JoeBas]

Amtrak has an entire system of trains that connect in practically every city where a useful connection can happen. In order to orchestrate that, there has to be a city where they don't. Given its night life, and its relatively small ridership, New Orleans is the one chosen for non working connections.

Which honestly makes sense.

I wonder if there is anyone here (besides me) who lives within 100 miles of NOL?

I live in Houston. A city about 6x bigger than NOL. With 1/6 the train service, as things stand now.

So you'll have to forgive me while I go break out the world's smallest violin...

 

[A Voice]

One possible solution for the Crescent. Run a dedicated thruway ( not the dog ) Hattiesburg - Gulfport connecting to the NOL - JAX - ORL train. The Jackson section thruway on the dog would not be needed once passengers could connect in NOL - FL. Although not ideal with a thruway bus in the middle it would allow persons from Greenville - Spartanburg - ATL - BHM - Meridian - Hattiesburg to travel mostly by train to Florida. That would eliminate the gosh awful BHM - ATL - CLT ( change trains ) - Raleigh ( change trains ) - JAX / FL.

Only if UP / BNSF would allow speed up of Sunset east of SAS could passengers connect to CNO Florida. Another possibility would be for NOL east Passengers off the SL would be a thruway Houston - NOL ? HOU - NOL is ~350 road miles so a 6-1/2 hour thruway bus instead of 9-1/2 hour SL.-

The real solution is, of course, more than one train a day on the route(s). It is really hard to advocate for that, however, when we haven't even taken the simpler and (relatively) low cost initial steps of making tri-weekly trains daily and restoring some "bones" (routes) cut previously from Amtrak's already too skeletal national system.

 

[Gulfwind2]

The Southern Rail Commission is actively pursuing a state-funded train from New Orleans to Mobile departing NOL daily at 0800 and returning from Mobile after the close of the business day. The goal is for this pocket-sized state train (The 3rd Amtrak incarnation of the Gulf Coast Limited) to run with a daily extension of the City Of New Orleans, which will drop part of its consist in New Orleans each day for servicing whilst an abridged portion of the consist will proceed to Orlando & be serviced at the Sanford Auto Train turning facility. The weak link of this plan is the Orlando extension of the CoNO. It is seeing substantial difficulty becoming reality predictably due to CSX's resistance to adding passenger service, particularly on the non-signaled trackage between Flomaton and Tallahassee.

 

[jis]

Gulfwind. Thanks for the update.

 

[west point]

In the short term Amtrak's lack of equipment is making all discussions of solving the problems of NOL very difficult. For example this past Thanksgiving Amtrak pulled every car ( and LOCOS ) possible from maintenance and put them on the road. If cars during slack times are assigned to a Sunset east ( CNO ) they are not available to beef up rush time trains on Amtrak. Another factor is that in very cold weather times Horizons have to be removed from Midwest trains. So the idle equipment has to be assigned to those trains. The ability for some persons to travel on holidays has an unknown effect on those persons to schedule train travel at other times ?

Amtrak cannot maintain the rush time availability year around due to maintenance assignments. Obviously much more equipment is the answer. IMHO to effect the following Amtrak will need an additional 50 - 75 sleeper mix of V-2 sleepers and Superliner sleepers. As well a LD V-2 coach order of at least 200. These numbers allow for no retirements of any cars.

Once Horizons are replace out of CHI and are assigned to a Sunset, east of San Antonia (SAS) and possibly some to southern California scheduling then becomes possible.

A first step might be running SAS - JAX/ORL. That way Crescent and CNO passengers can connect. Still have problem of sleepers space but Horizon will displace at least a couple sleepers or a transition. Then thru cars could be scheduled on both Crescent and Sunset from SAS. If ORL - NOL arrives at NOL by 0500 then passengers could connect the other way. Would thru passengers like the long layover in NOL ? who knows ?

All this will require at least another 10 operable locos.

 

[jis]

There will be no SAS - JAX - ORL. The timings are not acceptable to the NOL - JAX users who are the primary sponsors of the service. So just keep dreaming. Additionally any timing that causes one to lose the same day turn of equipment in Orlando adds the need for one more incremental consist which makes it that much harder to find the equipment.

The basic incremental need for the CONO extension as proposed is 2 Coach-Baggage, 2 Sleepers and 2 CCCs + 2 P42s. Amtrak already claims that they can find that equipment. The only issue right now is negotiation with CSX.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

It doesn't surprise me CSX is slowing the progress of the restoration of City of New Orleans extension. You would think they would remember that Amtrak never discontinued the route east of New Orleans.