Questions about the Crescent's schedule

[Bill631]

Hello all,

I have a couple of questions regarding the Crescent and it's schedule.

Considering the lack of the Westbound service now from Jacksonville to NOL, I am curious if anyone can explain to me the logic of having the Crescent arrive in NOL at 7:10pm?

I am asking because this means there is no same-day connection for the Sunset Ltd, train #1, which originates in NOL 3 times a week. The late arrival also misses any connnections for any Westbound Greyhound busses. So, my question is, what is the main reason, considering it's route, that Amtrak chooses to have the Crescent depart NYC at 2:15pm, and arrive in NOL the next day at 7:10pm?

In general, it would seem that Amtrak would want to get trains into their final destination as early in the day as possible. I would take this train more often, but since I need to go to Houston, this means an overnight in NOL, which I don't always want to do.

Bill B)

 

[haolerider]

I think it has a lot to do with departure slots out of NYP, plus a convenient arrival time into ATL, since most of the passengers detrain in ATL.

 

[AlanB]

I think it has a lot to do with departure slots out of NYP, plus a convenient arrival time into ATL, since most of the passengers detrain in ATL.

Slots at NYP are always a concern, but in this case Amtrak could move the departure up to say 10:30 or 11:00 AM without too many problems.

Where it would create an issue is what you stated in the second part of your post, the calling time at Atlanta which is a huge market for Amtrak. An on time train currently calls in ATL at 8:30 AM. Moving up the departure out of NYP by 3 hours would mean arriving in ATL at 5:30 AM a terrible time for such a big market. Besides, a 5:10 PM arrival into NOL wouldn't help all that much connection wise.

 

[battalion51]

The other issue at stake here is what slots are available from the host railroad. Amtrak does not have free reign over when they run their trains, the host railroad plays a big role in when things move on their property. Equipment layovers and crew turns are also a concern in this equation. I do agree it's too bad that there is no connection between the Sunset and the CONO/Crescent, but it is what it is. :lol:

 

[haolerider]

Amtrak continues to try and move the arrival time just a bit earlier into New Orleans to make it a more viable short term trip from cities below Atlanta. The 7 pm arrival is better than in previous years when it was closer to 8 pm. There are passengers who take a one-night trip to NOL and like to get there in time to have an early dinner and then party all night on Bourbon Street - in fact some don't even bother with a hotel room and start the day with benigets at Cafe du Monde and then catch the Crescent back north.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Any long distance route on Amtrak today which just has one train used to have several. Thus giving a better choice, often operating at different times of day(perhaps exact opposites) , which would easily fill yours or any similar needs, and make better connections, and with even more trains.

What we have today are the routes and schedules which have survived. Further, back when there were more trains, there were even more needs to meet. For example, the passenger trains used to carry the U.S. mail, so there was a need for very early arrivals in some cities. There was also a need to schedule trains conveniently for business travel, i.e. lv 5 or 6 p.m. arrive next morning 8 or 9, etc.

Amtrak (new since 1971) lives today with what circumstances and budgeting allow.

Back "in the day" NYC to NOL service was like this:

The Southerner, route of today's Crescent, left NY about 4 pm got to NOL about 9 next night .

The train formerly known as the Crescent left NY about 2 p.m. got to NOL next afternoon about 4 p.m.(shorter route, ATl to NOL via Montgomery and Mobile).

Another train on the same route as the former-Crescent was the Piedmont Limited, left NYC about 10 p.m., I think, and got to NOL the second morning about 8 a.m. Good both for the mail and for the overnight ATl to NOL market.

The Pelican, via Roanoke, Bristol , Knoxville, Chattanooga, Birmingham, etc, left NY about 7 p.m. arrived NOL second morning about 6 a.m. (good for the mail).

A person could also ride the Birmingham Special, leave NYC about 11:30 a.m. , change next morning in BHM and arrive about 9 p.m. on the Southerner. This would be useful for people boarding at such intermediate stops(not on the major route through Atlanta) as Roanoke, Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga.

Allen made a good point for continuing today's schedule as is was the importance of Atlanta, and also Washington. Indeed, so much busness is just between WAS and ATL these days.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Well, if Amtrak continues it's obstinate refusal to restart the Sunset East of NOL, and if the pax count through ATL is really as high as is suggested, they could at least partially repair the damage by breaking Crescent into NOL-ATL and ATL-NYP, and adding a ATL-JAX leg. That would still leave southern Mississippi, southern Alabama, and northern and western Florida high and dry from Pensacola to just west of JAX, but it would at least reconnect the southwestern USA to the southeastern USA, including SAV, CHS, JAX, ORL, TPA, and MIA, without having to travel through Chicago or up to Washington to get there.

 

[had8ley]

Just a short blurp on the crew and equipment. Amtrak is able to maintain a train crew base in Meridian, MS that covers both directions~ both to Atlanta and New Orleans. The entire crew (NYP supplies the diner and lounge staff positions) is able to get adequate rest and the same equipment is serviced and sent back to NYP. The train "self-turns" itself before backing into NOUPT.

 

[George Harris]

To break the train at Atlanta would be highly counterproductive. A lot of the boarding/departures west and south of Atlanta are passengers to/from points in the northeast. Atlanta-Jacksonville would be nice, but the two lines that have fairly high speed tracks are heavily congested, and the route that is not heavily congested needs lots of work to operate at reasonable speeds. Part of the problem with the late arrival in New Orleans is the relatively slow run between Atlanta and Birmingham. Slightly over 4 hours for 165 miles. This relates to the fact that the major rebuilding that Southern did to their mainline in the ealy part of the last century did not get west of Austell GA. Most of the line between Atlanta and Birmingham is extremely curvey with speeds between 35 and 50 mph, and very little faster. The former Crescent route via West Point, Montgomery, and Mobile is as slow or slower than the route currently used.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

George Harris is so right about the ATl-BHM line being so slow and curvy. But from a pure selfish railfan point of view, man, I do enjoy those curves!! Seeing the train go around and around and around......

To elaborate upon that listing I gave a couple of posts above. To make the point about business being greater between WAS and ATL, note that, adding to that list, there were about three Southern Railway trains which did just that. The Peach Queen(thru pullmans from NY), the Washington Atlanta and New Orleans Express (never mind its name) and a nameless local.

Plus, competitor Seaboard ran its swank Silver Comet from NY and WAS to ATL and BHM, plus a couple of nameless locals.

Finally, those trainis which did go all the way to NOL, such as the Crescent and the Southernor, even back then shed some of their cars upon arrival southbound in ATL. Just as Amtrak did not so many years ago.

So, yep, as out of touch with the passenger train as today's market is, still the schedule which survived is seemingly quite viable.

I would like to see the northbound Crescent go through Atl about an hour earlier, I think it would get more dinner business in the diner. But that would mean leaving NOL too early.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for all the coments on this.

I realize "it is what it is" as far as the schedule is concerned, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

I haven't taken the Crescent since the hurricane, but I want to for my next trip down South.

In previous trips the train was always pretty full all the way to New Orleans.

I just wish it got there earlier in the day.

Oh well, I guess I'll just have to force myself to overnight in NOL, party on Bourbon Street, hit the casino at Harrah's, and eat some fabulous food.

Bill

 

[George Harris]

This whole discussion is a good example of why we should be striving to see two daily trains on most routes Amtrak serves. No matter what you do, you will always have some locations served at lousy times per day with one train a day.

My thought on where to start: Three trains New York to Miami, with having a late night departure and early second morning arrival at the end points. New York to Chicago needs more than one thorugh train a day. Here again three seems like a good number, mid-morning departure, early second morning arrival, later departure, mid morning arrival, and late evening departure, mid afternoon arrival. Would really be nice to see the speed possibilities reach the point that an early morning departure, late same day arrival would be possible. There ought to be enough people out there for the intermediate points with reasonable service to do this though both Buffalo and Pittsburg. Something similar should be done New York - Atlanta - New Orleans, with some trains south of Atlanta going through Birmingham and others through Montgomery.

 

[haolerider]

These comments are all true - however the reality is that unless there is a Lottery Winner at Amtak, who is willing to fund these additional trains and unless the host railroads agree to allow more Amtrak trains on their tracks, this is all just wishful thinking. Of course, everyone would like more frequency so there are not middle of the night arrivals and departures, but it will not happen in our life times.

Now having said that, the example of Illinois is front and center. They are willing to fund additional trains and are in the process of beginning three new additional routes. That is the way to do the short runs - state funding with Amtrak operations, but I don't see too many other states stepping up to the table to ask for and fund additional service.

 

[battalion51]

In a perfect world we'd have three or even four trains a day running each route with good equipment and competitive running times. However in all reality that's not going to happen any time soon. With discount airlines dominating the big markets and with so many airports so close to where a good deal of people live Amtrak is forced to serve the niche market (for the most part) and serve towns where airports are good distance away. Also complicating matters is that this is an Auto Nation (no plug for the company intended). Americans enjoy the freedom to go where they want when they want, and that is not likely to change any time in the future either. The national rail system is not going to grow any further from where it is now unless states start to get together and fund additional trains. If states work together to fund trains things could be done. Unfortunately that is not likely to happen since the states really never look beyond their borders to discover ways they can better serve their residents and (with help) their neighbors.

 

[had8ley]

I don't know if this suggestion will cause an uproar but here we go. I've noticed more and more catalogs in our mail box as of late. My wife swears she hasn't ordered them. Years ago the IC used to haul full baggage cars of Sears & Roebuck catalogs from Chicago to New Orleans. It really didn't matter what time the train arrived into New Orleans~ the catalogs were high and dry.

My point is this; the passenger trains survived for years based on mail service. Granted, Amtrak's doomed express business went absolutely no where to enhance the bottom line on revenue. But what IF some creative soul got enough committments from catalog and telephone directory distibutors BEFORE they instituted passenger service to accomodate the express business? Then maybe we could have two or even three trains a day on some routes. Heaven help us if Amtrak has to run three Sunsets over the UP each way every day but this is just a grass roots thought to enhance service to the traveling public.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Talking about mail on the trains, the Fall issue of "Classic Trains' is a must.

Many indepth articles about the whole mail business the RPO's (railway post office) cars, the sorting of letters enroute, the throwing the bag out at stations where the train did not stop, lifiting it from those same stations, the trains which were solid mail and express, etc..

There turns out to have been a whole culture to the mail clerk's way of life.I was oblivious to that though living during the last days of it. Having read the magazine, I appreciate the railway mail culture much more than I ever did at the time.

Said when the old guys no longer needed at the railroad were working in "stationary" facilities, their bodies would still have a barely detectable sway to them from years of balancing themselves on the train sorting mail. Said they knew geography and train numbers and schedules for the whole country like they knew their own first names, and were tested periodically about such knowledge.

Quite interesting.

 

[Guest]

Talking about mail on the trains, the Fall issue of "Classic Trains' is a must.
Many indepth articles about the whole mail business the RPO's (railway post office) cars, the sorting of letters enroute, the throwing the bag out at stations where the train did not stop, lifiting it from those same stations, the trains which were solid mail and express, etc..

There turns out to have been a whole culture to the mail clerk's way of life.I was oblivious to that though living during the last days of it. Having read the magazine, I appreciate the railway mail culture much more than I ever did at the time.

Said when the old guys no longer needed at the railroad were working in "stationary" facilities, their bodies would still have a barely detectable sway to them from years of balancing themselves on the train sorting mail. Said they knew geography and train numbers and schedules for the whole country like they knew their own first names, and were tested periodically about such knowledge.

Quite interesting.

While in DC, check out the Postal Museum next door to Union Station where they have one of these old railway post office cars on display and open for visitors to walk through.

 

[MrFSS]

Here's what some of those old RPO cars looked like.