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boyce
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I rode a train in 1961 from Mobile, Alabama to college in Auburn, Ala. Would this be the Southern Pacific or ?
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The railroad from Montgomery to Auburn (Go Tigers?) was the Western Railway of Alabama. It owned trackage from West Point, GA to Montgomery. Between Atlanta and West Point, the tracks were owned by the Atlanta and West Point Rail Road. Together, those two lines operated passenger trains between Montgomery and Atlanta under the name of "The West Point Route" (sounds a little like a west shore Hudson River service in NY, but in this case West Point means Georgia).boyce said:
Although the Southern Railway operated the Cresent over these same tracks, the Cresent did not stop in Auburn. It is likely that you used one of the jointly-operated West Point Route trains.
The Crescent Limited, which began operating in 1926, ran from NY to NO via Atlanta, Montgomery and Mobile, that is the Atlanta & West Point RR from ATl to Montgmery, and the L&N from Montgomery to Mobile and New Orleans. (Pennsylvania, NY to WAS, Southern from WAS to ATL)
In 1941 the new streamlined Southerner was placed in operation . It ran from NY to ATL and NO, via Birmingham ,Tuscaloosa and Meridian.It was an all coach train. It was Pennsylvania NY to WAS and Southern from WAS all the way to NO.
In 1949 the Crescent dropped the name "Limited" and became simply The Crescent and it was re-equipped as a streamliner, still using the route described above.It had pullmans NY to NO but coaches only from ATL to NO. Coaches later were added NY to WAS and WAS to Charlotte.
In 1949 new pullmans were added to the Southerner, but they only operated as far south as BHM. Thus, neither train had both coaches and pullmans all the way from NY to NO.
NOTE: There were other trains between these points besides the Crescent and the Southerner---but they were the two streamliners, thus, the premier trains of the routes.
In about 1970, the Southern Railroad was no longer able to operate both streamliners, had to delete one. They did this by "combining the identities" that is, recreating a "new" train which would include features of each former streamliner.
This "new" train had, for the first time, BOTH through coaches and pullmans all the way from NY to NO on the same train.It used the schedule of the southbound Crescent and the schedule of the northbound Southerner(which, n.b., was much faster than the Crescent).
For a route, it used the route of the former Southernor, that is, via BHM ,Tuscaloosa, and Meridian. It did not use the former Crescent route(Montgomery and Mobile) since there was still another train, the Piedmont Liimited, on that route. Better to have one train, the Piedmont, via Mont and Mobile and one train, the "new" one via BHM and Meridian, than two on one route and none on the other.
So, what to call this "new" train? It was called the Southern Crescent.A name which was SUPPOSED to evoke memories of the former Southerner, as well as of the former Crescent. In fact, nobody understood it that way at all. It was thought that"Southern" referred to the railroad, or to the region, or to some out of date "Dixie" type of politically incorrect pride.
It was called Southern Crescent from about 1970 to 1979, when Amtrak took it over, and dropped the word "Southern". Thus the train which really had more in common with the Southerner, (i.e. routing and northbound schedule)wound up with the Crescent's name
So, in 1961 you would have ridden either the Crescent or the Piedmont Limited on the trip you describe. I do not specificlally remember whether they stopped in Auburn or, not, I could look that up tonight.Obviously at least one of them stopped there, or you would not have been able to board it !! The train which, at that time, was going via BHM and Meridian was the Southerner.
Hope this helps.
Incidentally NONE of this is to be confused with the train, much later, under Amtrak, called the Gulf Breeze which branched off the Crescent at BHM and ran to Montgomery and Mobile.
In 1941 the new streamlined Southerner was placed in operation . It ran from NY to ATL and NO, via Birmingham ,Tuscaloosa and Meridian.It was an all coach train. It was Pennsylvania NY to WAS and Southern from WAS all the way to NO.
In 1949 the Crescent dropped the name "Limited" and became simply The Crescent and it was re-equipped as a streamliner, still using the route described above.It had pullmans NY to NO but coaches only from ATL to NO. Coaches later were added NY to WAS and WAS to Charlotte.
In 1949 new pullmans were added to the Southerner, but they only operated as far south as BHM. Thus, neither train had both coaches and pullmans all the way from NY to NO.
NOTE: There were other trains between these points besides the Crescent and the Southerner---but they were the two streamliners, thus, the premier trains of the routes.
In about 1970, the Southern Railroad was no longer able to operate both streamliners, had to delete one. They did this by "combining the identities" that is, recreating a "new" train which would include features of each former streamliner.
This "new" train had, for the first time, BOTH through coaches and pullmans all the way from NY to NO on the same train.It used the schedule of the southbound Crescent and the schedule of the northbound Southerner(which, n.b., was much faster than the Crescent).
For a route, it used the route of the former Southernor, that is, via BHM ,Tuscaloosa, and Meridian. It did not use the former Crescent route(Montgomery and Mobile) since there was still another train, the Piedmont Liimited, on that route. Better to have one train, the Piedmont, via Mont and Mobile and one train, the "new" one via BHM and Meridian, than two on one route and none on the other.
So, what to call this "new" train? It was called the Southern Crescent.A name which was SUPPOSED to evoke memories of the former Southerner, as well as of the former Crescent. In fact, nobody understood it that way at all. It was thought that"Southern" referred to the railroad, or to the region, or to some out of date "Dixie" type of politically incorrect pride.
It was called Southern Crescent from about 1970 to 1979, when Amtrak took it over, and dropped the word "Southern". Thus the train which really had more in common with the Southerner, (i.e. routing and northbound schedule)wound up with the Crescent's name
So, in 1961 you would have ridden either the Crescent or the Piedmont Limited on the trip you describe. I do not specificlally remember whether they stopped in Auburn or, not, I could look that up tonight.Obviously at least one of them stopped there, or you would not have been able to board it !! The train which, at that time, was going via BHM and Meridian was the Southerner.
Hope this helps.
Incidentally NONE of this is to be confused with the train, much later, under Amtrak, called the Gulf Breeze which branched off the Crescent at BHM and ran to Montgomery and Mobile.
Boyce, you brought back memories for me. I hope my answer to the above question was not too long.
That confusion about routes and train names re: the Crescent comes up from time to time and I think the best way to explain it is to tell the whole story.
But the memory it brings up is this: my first time to eat in a dining car by myself was on the A&WP Crescent from Montgomery to Atlanta. I do not remember how old I was. I proudly announced to the waiter, "I am leaving you an eight cent tip". I then changed trains in Atlanta and ate dinner that night from ATl to Chattanooga. I knew that since my dinner had cost more, I should tip more. So, to that waiter, I proudly announced "I am leaving you a 13 cent tip". Fortunately both waiters understood that I was a kid and did not know any better.
I do not remember what an appropriate tip would have been at that time, but of course it would have been much more than 8 cents or 13 cents.
That confusion about routes and train names re: the Crescent comes up from time to time and I think the best way to explain it is to tell the whole story.
But the memory it brings up is this: my first time to eat in a dining car by myself was on the A&WP Crescent from Montgomery to Atlanta. I do not remember how old I was. I proudly announced to the waiter, "I am leaving you an eight cent tip". I then changed trains in Atlanta and ate dinner that night from ATl to Chattanooga. I knew that since my dinner had cost more, I should tip more. So, to that waiter, I proudly announced "I am leaving you a 13 cent tip". Fortunately both waiters understood that I was a kid and did not know any better.
I do not remember what an appropriate tip would have been at that time, but of course it would have been much more than 8 cents or 13 cents.
Boyce, I checked the old timetables last night and both the Crescent and Piedmont Limited(A&WP version of each) stopped in Auburn , Ala. If you remember a daylight trip you were probably on the Crescent, original historical route and version....if you traveled at night you would have been on the Piedmont.
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Veleka
Guest
Hi, Bill Haithcoat, if you are still in this group, I need a couple of answers about the Piedmont Limited for something I am writing. If Bill is no longer here, does anyone else know where I could find out what time the Piedmont left Penn Station on May 22, 1951? Also, was it strictly coach or were there sleeping cars, too, at that time? If so, what kind of sleeping cars? What time did the Piedmont arrive in New Orleans? I'd like to know a lot more, but that would suffice. Is there a book on this?
Thanks for any help you can give.
Veleka
I am still here---just now made a fool of myself by answering an old question. Anyway, I am up to speed now and will be glad to give you an answer tomorrow.
It is very possible that I will have a Southern timetable for that period. I can tell you the Piedmont may have left NYC about 9 p.m.I am hazy about that but I seem to think it left WAS about 3 a.m so that might make sense. It did not have through coaches, coach had to change cars in WAS. It did have pullmans from NYC to veraious destinations, some streamlined 10-6's or 14-4's(fourteen roomettes, four double bedrooms) and some heavyweight. They went to several destinations, probably only one or two all the way to NOL.
I will be very glad to gvie you detailed info tomorrow. Its arrival in NOL was about 7:50 a.m.second morning out as I recall.
Somehow I mis-read my panel and attempted to answer the original question from three years ago. Sorry about that.
I can help you a lot tomorrow. The Piedmont Limited was largely a heavy weight train but had some lightweight sleepers, as noted above. It had a lounge -coach which I always throught was probably lightweight. Some coaches were modernized. The diner was probably modernzied, not sure. A basic mix of cars. NOTE; A modernzied car is a heavyweight which has been rebuilt in various ways to resemble a streamlined car, both inside and out..
It played second fiddle to the Crescent.
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I just happened to have a Southern timetable handy from February, 1953. The Piedmont Ltd left New York at 10:15PM, stopped in Washingto from 2:10-2:40AM, Charlotte 12:10-12:20PM, Atlanta 6:30PM-7:15PM, Montgomery 10:40-11:10PM, Mobile 4:10AM, arrive New Orleans 8:05AM at Canal Street Station. Carried 2 sleepers NewYork-New Orleans, 1 sleeper Wasington to New Orleans, Sleeper New York-Mobile, Sleeper New York- Charlotte, Sleeper Atlanta-New Orleans, Diner Monroe-Atlanta, Atlanta New Orleans, Lounge Coach Wasington-Atlanta and Coaches between all points.
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Guest
Guest
I don't have my timetables handy, but in the 1950's northbound the Piedmont left New Orleans at about 5:15 pm combined with the Gulf Wind to New Orleans, splitting at Flomaton AL, around 11;00 pm, through Montgomery about 1:00 am, arrived Atlanta about 8:00 am, left at about 9:00 am, arrived Washington about 1:00 am and arrived New York City about 6:00 the following morning. The Piedmont and Carolina Special both directions made connections in all directions stops in Spartanburg SC at about 2:00 pm.
The Crescent left New Orleans at 11:00 pm, later backed up to about 9:00 pm and combined with the Pan American, got to Montgomery at abotu 6:00 am, Left Atlanta at about 1:00 pm, arrived Washington about 3:30 am and New York at around 8:00 am. No coaches north of Atlanta. Coach Passenger could take the Peach Queen. Sometime around 1960, the Augusta Special was combined with the Crescent. After that, it was "No coaches between Charlotte and Atlanta."
The Crescent left New Orleans at 11:00 pm, later backed up to about 9:00 pm and combined with the Pan American, got to Montgomery at abotu 6:00 am, Left Atlanta at about 1:00 pm, arrived Washington about 3:30 am and New York at around 8:00 am. No coaches north of Atlanta. Coach Passenger could take the Peach Queen. Sometime around 1960, the Augusta Special was combined with the Crescent. After that, it was "No coaches between Charlotte and Atlanta."
Looks like your questions have largely been answsered.
But you did ask what kind of sleepers, I am going to answer that in a second.
First I want to correct my earlier idea that the Piedmont Limited had several streamlined cars on it--it did, later--but ini 1951 not all of them had been delivered. Southern had just ordered a whole batch of streamlined equipment and it had not all be delivered yet. So, I guess the only streamlined car on it was the lounge-coach, if that.
As to sleepers: here are the abbrevations:
S = sections(upper and lower semi-private berths )
Dr = drawing room,
C = compartment
dbr = double bedroom
Here, from the March 4, 1951 SOU timetable, shows:
NYC-CHarlotte 10S Dr 2C
NYC-Mobile 10S Dr 2C
NYC-NOL 8S 5 DBR
NYC-NOL 10S DR 2C
WASh-NOL 10S Lounge
ATL-NOL 12S Dr
Keep in mind that to get the complete picture of a given train in the pre-Amtrak days you had to have date-matching timetables from EACH railroad. For this, it would be the Pennsylvania from NYC to WAS; the Southern from WAS to ATL, the Atlanta and West Point from ATl to Montgomery and the Louisvlle & Nashville from Montogmery to NOL. My weaksest link is in A&WP timetables, I have a very few of them; quite a bit of the others. An example fo what I mean would be that the L&N timetable would not show that NYC-Charllotte sleeper, since it did not venture onto L&N rails.
If we have not answsered all your questions ( you mentioned something about great detail) please ask again. If you need to know something like the time it made every single stop, etc, you could e-mail me and I could xerox some of this and send it to you by snailmail.
Another person gave you the consist out of his timetable and mentioned the coaches. You will note the timetable does not say how many coaches. This is because the Piedmont was not a reserved seat train. Timetables usually only listed the exact number of coaches(and the number of seats ini them) when seats were reserved. But I would think that it had about 3 or 4 coaches from WAS to NOL, one or two WAS to ATl. North of Wash no telling since those would have been largely used to people traveling within thie corrider.
Between NYC and WAS it would not be considered JUST the Piedmont Limited, it probably was really a local NYC-WAS train with through cars for delivery to the Piedmont Limited and probably various other trains to points south., and not just for the Southern Railroad, maybe some Seaboard, ACL, etc.
Last but not least, probably 4 or 5 head end cars, i.e. various types of mail cars..
But you did ask what kind of sleepers, I am going to answer that in a second.
First I want to correct my earlier idea that the Piedmont Limited had several streamlined cars on it--it did, later--but ini 1951 not all of them had been delivered. Southern had just ordered a whole batch of streamlined equipment and it had not all be delivered yet. So, I guess the only streamlined car on it was the lounge-coach, if that.
As to sleepers: here are the abbrevations:
S = sections(upper and lower semi-private berths )
Dr = drawing room,
C = compartment
dbr = double bedroom
Here, from the March 4, 1951 SOU timetable, shows:
NYC-CHarlotte 10S Dr 2C
NYC-Mobile 10S Dr 2C
NYC-NOL 8S 5 DBR
NYC-NOL 10S DR 2C
WASh-NOL 10S Lounge
ATL-NOL 12S Dr
Keep in mind that to get the complete picture of a given train in the pre-Amtrak days you had to have date-matching timetables from EACH railroad. For this, it would be the Pennsylvania from NYC to WAS; the Southern from WAS to ATL, the Atlanta and West Point from ATl to Montgomery and the Louisvlle & Nashville from Montogmery to NOL. My weaksest link is in A&WP timetables, I have a very few of them; quite a bit of the others. An example fo what I mean would be that the L&N timetable would not show that NYC-Charllotte sleeper, since it did not venture onto L&N rails.
If we have not answsered all your questions ( you mentioned something about great detail) please ask again. If you need to know something like the time it made every single stop, etc, you could e-mail me and I could xerox some of this and send it to you by snailmail.
Another person gave you the consist out of his timetable and mentioned the coaches. You will note the timetable does not say how many coaches. This is because the Piedmont was not a reserved seat train. Timetables usually only listed the exact number of coaches(and the number of seats ini them) when seats were reserved. But I would think that it had about 3 or 4 coaches from WAS to NOL, one or two WAS to ATl. North of Wash no telling since those would have been largely used to people traveling within thie corrider.
Between NYC and WAS it would not be considered JUST the Piedmont Limited, it probably was really a local NYC-WAS train with through cars for delivery to the Piedmont Limited and probably various other trains to points south., and not just for the Southern Railroad, maybe some Seaboard, ACL, etc.
Last but not least, probably 4 or 5 head end cars, i.e. various types of mail cars..
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V
Veleka
Guest
Thank you, Mr. Haithcoat, and the other kind person. Let me tell you what my interest is.
I'm writing a novel, and in one of the first chapters my eight-year-old heroine, Jenica, is taken from her bed in Manhattan the night her mother is murdered. She is put on a night train and sent to New Orleans.
I've been doing my best to research this since all I actually know about trains is that I love to ride them, and what I was told was that the only train that would work for May 22, 1951, is the Piedmont.
So here is what I would dearly love to know: the exact time (if possible) of when Jenica would be boarding that train. How soon after she boards would the train leave the station? I was told it had to be Penn and not Grand Central. Who would be on her car? A conductor? Someone else to turn down the beds or something?
She and her nanny are to spend the night on the train. Her father is a man like William Paley, founder of CBS. They have a lot of money. So what would be the best they could buy on the Piedmont and what would it look like? Would it be private?
How much would all this cost?
Her half-brother travels with them, but he just drops them off. I have him going to a club car and then to his own quarters on the train later, only seeing Jen for breakfast the next day. How good was the food? Would they use real silverware or just flatware?
I have a scene in the middle of the night (maybe just after they leave Washington?) where Jen wakes and leaves her private compartment (if she can have such a thing). She finds the conductor in the hall. Don't know what the travel space from the front of a car to the back of a car is called, so I'm calling it a hall until someone can correct me. Anyway, in the scene I had the conductor have a small galley in the wall of the car where he can heat up some milk for her right on her car. Was that possible? Or would he have to go somewhere else to get the milk? Then I have her break down and cry and I have him hold her and comfort her. Would that be possible? When I read this to a friend (a young friend), she thought that no strange man could get away with that, but I think in 1951 all adults were considered sort of safe. At least adults in a responsible job like conductor. Please correct me if the conductor would not have done this.
What is a "consist"? It's not in the dictionary.
I am really grateful for any and all information. To make this scene as authentic as possible so that a reader can relax and really go back in time, I need help!! Do you know of any DVDs I could get at Amazon that would show me what this train would look like?
Veleka
I'm writing a novel, and in one of the first chapters my eight-year-old heroine, Jenica, is taken from her bed in Manhattan the night her mother is murdered. She is put on a night train and sent to New Orleans.
I've been doing my best to research this since all I actually know about trains is that I love to ride them, and what I was told was that the only train that would work for May 22, 1951, is the Piedmont.
So here is what I would dearly love to know: the exact time (if possible) of when Jenica would be boarding that train. How soon after she boards would the train leave the station? I was told it had to be Penn and not Grand Central. Who would be on her car? A conductor? Someone else to turn down the beds or something?
She and her nanny are to spend the night on the train. Her father is a man like William Paley, founder of CBS. They have a lot of money. So what would be the best they could buy on the Piedmont and what would it look like? Would it be private?
How much would all this cost?
Her half-brother travels with them, but he just drops them off. I have him going to a club car and then to his own quarters on the train later, only seeing Jen for breakfast the next day. How good was the food? Would they use real silverware or just flatware?
I have a scene in the middle of the night (maybe just after they leave Washington?) where Jen wakes and leaves her private compartment (if she can have such a thing). She finds the conductor in the hall. Don't know what the travel space from the front of a car to the back of a car is called, so I'm calling it a hall until someone can correct me. Anyway, in the scene I had the conductor have a small galley in the wall of the car where he can heat up some milk for her right on her car. Was that possible? Or would he have to go somewhere else to get the milk? Then I have her break down and cry and I have him hold her and comfort her. Would that be possible? When I read this to a friend (a young friend), she thought that no strange man could get away with that, but I think in 1951 all adults were considered sort of safe. At least adults in a responsible job like conductor. Please correct me if the conductor would not have done this.
What is a "consist"? It's not in the dictionary.
I am really grateful for any and all information. To make this scene as authentic as possible so that a reader can relax and really go back in time, I need help!! Do you know of any DVDs I could get at Amazon that would show me what this train would look like?
Veleka
V
Veleka
Guest
P.S. At this site...
http://hometown.aol.com/chirailfan/stbcnor.html
... it seems they are telling when the Piedmont train would leave New Orleans but not when it would leave New York.
http://hometown.aol.com/chirailfan/stbcnor.html
... it seems they are telling when the Piedmont train would leave New Orleans but not when it would leave New York.
V
Veleka
Guest
http://www.geocities.com/~sou-ry/nt-waexp.htm
Here is something else about the Piedmont, except I don't know what it means.
Here is something else about the Piedmont, except I don't know what it means.
I am at work so will just answer a few things now....will try to answer more later.
I know that somebody gave you the northbound schedule but you were given the s.b. also, if you double check.
Just a few points. Yes, it would have to be Penn Station. A porter(as they were called then, sleeping car attendant now) would turn down the beds. I gave you a consist and it showed drawing rooms and compartments, double bedrooms and sections. The drawing room is the msot expensive, in that order. The word "consist'(accent on first sylalble: CON-sist) is the listng of the numbers and types of cars on a train.I have seen some dictionaries recognize the term. but not all.
Note that the Piedmont Limited spent TWO nights going from NYC to NOL. If it must be in one night, you would have to use some other trains llike the Crescent departing NYC 2.55 p.m. of or the Southerner deparrting 4:35 p.m..
Yes, it would be real silverware. No there would not (then) be a galley for heaitng milk in your sleeper unless it might be in the 10 section lounge (next door, not the same car) which was put on in Washington that I gave you in that consist. Barrinig that, it would be done in the diner, not put on until Monroe, Va. at 6:30 a.m. Pre-Amtrak sleeping cars did not provide ice, coffee, juice etc stocked at one end of the sleeper as they do now. It would have to come from a diner or lounge, or possilbly in this case the sleeper lounge put on in Washington).
Boarding at Penn Station seems like it usually takes about 20 minutes, no way of telling, no strict regimen.
I can work up the cost later.
This is the schedule from an April 29, 1951 L&N timetable. Lv NYC 10:15 p.m. Wash 2.10 a.m. and leave 2.40, Altanta, 6.30 p.m. t0 7:15, NOL next morning at 8.05. I think this is almost exactly what another person has already given you.
It is hard for my 62 year old eyes to read that reverse type on an equipment consist but it looks llike it is describing the Washingotn Altanta New Orleans express, not the Piedmont Limited.
We will talk more.
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Oh yes, I overlooked your questions about privacy. Yes, all the sleeping cars rooms I listed to you severql days ago are private rooms with beds and lavatory and toilet. But the term "sections" though refers to the semi priate upper and lower beds protected only by a green curtain, not a door.
Your heroine would definately be in a drawing room, the most expensive of the private rooms on that train. Look back at the sleeping car descriptions I gave you last week, the numbers and types of room in each car.
I think the presence of that 10 section lounge car added in Washington will help support your story line. That as to heating the milk. Only thing, the porter or conductor would have to go from the New York sleeper they boarded into an adjoining sleeper hooked on in WAS, rather than just "down the hall" in the same sleeper.
The 10 Section lounge sleeper is a combination car, 10 sections at one end, a lounge at the other. Not unusual back then.
Your heroine would definately be in a drawing room, the most expensive of the private rooms on that train. Look back at the sleeping car descriptions I gave you last week, the numbers and types of room in each car.
I think the presence of that 10 section lounge car added in Washington will help support your story line. That as to heating the milk. Only thing, the porter or conductor would have to go from the New York sleeper they boarded into an adjoining sleeper hooked on in WAS, rather than just "down the hall" in the same sleeper.
The 10 Section lounge sleeper is a combination car, 10 sections at one end, a lounge at the other. Not unusual back then.
The cost would have been about $145 one way , a lot of money in those days. The conductur might do better tapping her on the shoulder, not hugging. Hugging would work best by a stewardess (being of he same sex) , but the Piedmont Limited did not have such. Conductors and stewardesses were normally white people throughout the country; porters were normally Black people throughout the country and a hug would not likely happen anywhere in the country esp. with the porter.
I am sure the lounge car would not be open for normal service, still a conductor or porter might have taken such a warming on as a thoughtful gesture.
I do not know if the train had a club car(club car and lounge were the same thing usually in thsoe days) from NYC to WASH. that would be in the Pennsylvania R.R. timetable and I am not sure if I have one for 1951.
The Piedmont Limtied was a very ordinary train not particulary photogenic. I probably have some shots in books of trains taht look at least something like it from that time period.
Would be glad to send you xerox copies of that and the timetable. Also descriptions of the sleeping car rooms and illustrations of what they would look like.
Keep in mind that nothing from today on Amtrak would help you, as Amtrak did not begin until 1971, 20 years afer your time frame. So, Amtrak accommodations, etc, would not work, strictly speaking though they would give you an idea.
Let me know. just e-mail me.
I am sure the lounge car would not be open for normal service, still a conductor or porter might have taken such a warming on as a thoughtful gesture.
I do not know if the train had a club car(club car and lounge were the same thing usually in thsoe days) from NYC to WASH. that would be in the Pennsylvania R.R. timetable and I am not sure if I have one for 1951.
The Piedmont Limtied was a very ordinary train not particulary photogenic. I probably have some shots in books of trains taht look at least something like it from that time period.
Would be glad to send you xerox copies of that and the timetable. Also descriptions of the sleeping car rooms and illustrations of what they would look like.
Keep in mind that nothing from today on Amtrak would help you, as Amtrak did not begin until 1971, 20 years afer your time frame. So, Amtrak accommodations, etc, would not work, strictly speaking though they would give you an idea.
Let me know. just e-mail me.
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Bill - I have a 1949 PRR table if that helps. Tell me what we're looking for and I can scan it and put it in the thread.
Tom
Thanks for the offer but you probably will not find it. That is because PRR printed its "southern" info, i.e. trains to Forida, New Orleans, etc on the various railroads in a special small timetable all its own....these trainsi were not listed in the big thick timetable.
Sort of like the way Amtrak used to print a National timetable and a N.E. corrider timetable separately.
Yours does list the South Wind, out of Chicago, but not the NYC trains to the south, at least that is the case with all I have ever seen.
You're right! Guess that's why I couldn't find anything. I'll tell you, though, PRR sure ran a lot trains between NYP and WAS, every hour on the half-hour. That was a lot of equipment!
As Bill stated, the PRR did not include the trains that operated south of Washington, DC in their regular New York to Washington timetables because those trains usually only stopped to received passengers for points beyond Washington, DC at stops between New York and Washington, DC. I noticed that the PRR train number for the Piedmont LTD in that era was #141 southbound. This train also carried through cars of RF&P/ACL/FEC's Havana Special between New York and Washington which carried quite a number of through Pullman sleeping cars, as well, so it must have been a fairly long train. The schedule of the southbound Piedmont LTD from New York to New Orleans did not change very much between 1947 and 1957 in the various schedules I looked at. Many of the long distance trains were impacted when the airlines started using the first jets in the late 1950s that made longer trips by air more compfortable. The number of Pullman sleeping car lines on trains like the Piedmont LTD started to decrease drastically from the late 1950s to the early 1960s.
I,too, was able lto look into some old tiemtables at home last night (my computer is at work, that is why I am often not able to answer things on the spot), and also found it to be #141 from NYC to WAS and found it did not seem to have either a diner or a lounge. Makes sense, since 10:15 is kind of late to START up food/beverage service. Had the train been traveling from Boston, for example, the diner and lounge oculd still be booming at 10 p.m., but not for a train beginning at that timie. Would have to close so soon after departure, not worth the trouble.
So, no club-lounge for her half brother to retire to.
I am not an expert on motive power but I offer this. The locomotive from NYC to WAS woudl be one of the grand old GG1's. (look them up on the net). They were the fast and furious electic locmotives of the Pennsylvania RR for that era,indeed for many, many years. The PL was carried by diesel wouth of Washington, no steam for it in 1951.
I menitoned in an above post that the Piedmont was a very ordinary train---yep, by 1951 it was. That is not to say it may have had a better reputation back inthe 20's and 30's before streamliining (i.e. the Southerner and the re-quipped Crescent) was invented. I don't really know. It could be possible, I supppose, to speak of it as having a certain "faded glory".
So, no club-lounge for her half brother to retire to.
I am not an expert on motive power but I offer this. The locomotive from NYC to WAS woudl be one of the grand old GG1's. (look them up on the net). They were the fast and furious electic locmotives of the Pennsylvania RR for that era,indeed for many, many years. The PL was carried by diesel wouth of Washington, no steam for it in 1951.
I menitoned in an above post that the Piedmont was a very ordinary train---yep, by 1951 it was. That is not to say it may have had a better reputation back inthe 20's and 30's before streamliining (i.e. the Southerner and the re-quipped Crescent) was invented. I don't really know. It could be possible, I supppose, to speak of it as having a certain "faded glory".
V
Veleka
Guest
Mr. Haithcoat,
Forgive my repeating myself. It's like I'm trying to learn a new language since I know absolutely nothing about trains, and I don't always get a mental picture of what you are saying since I don't know the abbreviations and such.
What I have gleaned so far is that the Piedmont, which is the name of a train on the Southern Railroad system, left Pennsylvania Station on 34th Street and Eighth Avenue at 10:15 p.m. on May 22, 1951. Two days later on May 24 it arrived in New Orleans at 8:05 a.m. at an L & N Station called the Canal Street Station that no longer exists.
You wrote: (Carried 2 sleepers NewYork-New Orleans). I think this means there were only two sleeper compartments? Or only two cars on the whole train? If it's actually cars, would you know how many sleeper compartments there were per car? And is the space people walk through outside of these compartments called a "hall" or a "corridor"? And is the sleeping compartment called a Pullman or is the whole car called a Pullman?
Jenica's brother would have bought her space in whatever the best accommodations were for whatever it cost since they were rich, but I want her brother to be on another sleeper car if possible so she will be left alone with only her nanny to comfort her.
Also, there is one dining car put on the train at Atlanta. I'm wondering how they ate on the morning of May 23? I ask because your notes say "Diner Monroe-Atlanta, Atlanta New Orleans, Lounge Coach Wasington-Atlanta and Coaches between all points." I am interpreting this to mean that a lounge car is put on in Washington at 2 a.m., but there was no lounge car from New York to D.C.
Regarding the "Coaches between all points," does that mean people have to vacate their sleepers and sit in coaches for part of the journey?
Regarding the porter and conductor: the conductor would not pass through and see her in the hall? Only the porter? Where does the conductor ride between stations? Where do the porters ride? I heard there was only one conductor but lots of porters.
Would the train have medical personnel such as a nurse on a train?
You wrote, "The Piedmont Limited was largely a heavy weight train but had some lightweight sleepers." What's the difference between a car that is heavy weight or light weight? You wrote, "A modernzied car is a heavyweight which has been rebuilt in various ways to resemble a streamlined car, both inside and out." What is "streamlined"?
You wrote: "Keep in mind that to get the complete picture of a given train in the pre-Amtrak days you had to have date-matching timetables from EACH railroad. For this, it would be the Pennsylvania from NYC to WAS; the Southern from WAS to ATL, the Atlanta and West Point from ATl to Montgomery and the Louisvlle & Nashville from Montogmery to NOL. My weakest link is in A&WP timetables, I have a very few of them; quite a bit of the others. An example fo what I mean would be that the L&N timetable would not show that NYC-Charllotte sleeper, since it did not venture onto L&N rails."
I didn't understand about the date-matching. Does what you wrote above mean people have to get off the train and change trains like you have to change airplanes?
I don't need to know about every stop since Jen is too little to care about such things. She just doesn't know where she is going or why.
You wrote: "Another person gave you the consist out of his timetable and mentioned the coaches. You will note the timetable does not say how many coaches. This is because the Piedmont was not a reserved seat train. Timetables usually only listed the exact number of coaches(and the number of seats ini them) when seats were reserved. But I would think that it had about 3 or 4 coaches from WAS to NOL, one or two WAS to ATl. North of Wash no telling since those would have been largely used to people traveling within thie corrider."
I didn't see this. I have copied the entire page from the Web site and didn't find this on this page:
http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?...&qpid=86386
I think what this means is that there were three or four cars that were coach cars.
You wrote: "Between NYC and WAS it would not be considered JUST the Piedmont Limited, it probably was really a local NYC-WAS train with through cars for delivery to the Piedmont Limited and probably various other trains to points south, and not just for the Southern Railroad, maybe some Seaboard, ACL, etc."
What I think this means is that different railroad companies would calll the train different names, depending on how many cars they owned that were attached to the Piedmont.
You wrote: "I gave you a consist and it showed drawing rooms and compartments, double bedrooms and sections. The drawing room is the msot expensive, in that order." I could not find your consist on this page, but that I can have it is enough. Would there be a drawing room with compartment on another sleeper car for her brother, or are all those kinds of compartments only on the same car?
You write that the "10 Section lounge sleeper is a combination car, 10 sections at one end, a lounge at the other. Not unusual back then." Is a "section" a sleeping compartment?
Why is there a difference between a sleeper lounge (put on in D.C.) and a daytime lounge? A lounge is a club car, right?
You wrote: "It is hard for my 62 year old eyes to read that reverse type on an equipment consist but it looks llike it is describing the Washingotn Altanta New Orleans express, not the Piedmont Limited."
So when the train leaves New York, it is a local? And at D.C. it's becomes the New Orleans express? It is never called the Piedmont Limited? I don't really care about that except it's such a nice name and people know that train.
Re my sobbing heroine, would a conductor just be passing through her car when she's in the corridor/hall? When does he sleep? Could he kneel down and pat her and she would throw herself on his shoulder? Would he then disengage her? I didn't think there was that much of a sense of impropriety back then with a father figure sort of person comforting a child. If there was, then I could have him disengage by offering her a glass of warm milk. Would her let her go with him while he fixed it?
You wrote: "Would be glad to send you xerox copies of that and the timetable. Also descriptions of the sleeping car rooms and illustrations of what they would look like." That would be fantastic! Is there a way to give you my e-mail without posting it?
Thanks SOOOOO much! Finding you and this list was a godsend.
Veleka
Forgive my repeating myself. It's like I'm trying to learn a new language since I know absolutely nothing about trains, and I don't always get a mental picture of what you are saying since I don't know the abbreviations and such.
What I have gleaned so far is that the Piedmont, which is the name of a train on the Southern Railroad system, left Pennsylvania Station on 34th Street and Eighth Avenue at 10:15 p.m. on May 22, 1951. Two days later on May 24 it arrived in New Orleans at 8:05 a.m. at an L & N Station called the Canal Street Station that no longer exists.
You wrote: (Carried 2 sleepers NewYork-New Orleans). I think this means there were only two sleeper compartments? Or only two cars on the whole train? If it's actually cars, would you know how many sleeper compartments there were per car? And is the space people walk through outside of these compartments called a "hall" or a "corridor"? And is the sleeping compartment called a Pullman or is the whole car called a Pullman?
Jenica's brother would have bought her space in whatever the best accommodations were for whatever it cost since they were rich, but I want her brother to be on another sleeper car if possible so she will be left alone with only her nanny to comfort her.
Also, there is one dining car put on the train at Atlanta. I'm wondering how they ate on the morning of May 23? I ask because your notes say "Diner Monroe-Atlanta, Atlanta New Orleans, Lounge Coach Wasington-Atlanta and Coaches between all points." I am interpreting this to mean that a lounge car is put on in Washington at 2 a.m., but there was no lounge car from New York to D.C.
Regarding the "Coaches between all points," does that mean people have to vacate their sleepers and sit in coaches for part of the journey?
Regarding the porter and conductor: the conductor would not pass through and see her in the hall? Only the porter? Where does the conductor ride between stations? Where do the porters ride? I heard there was only one conductor but lots of porters.
Would the train have medical personnel such as a nurse on a train?
You wrote, "The Piedmont Limited was largely a heavy weight train but had some lightweight sleepers." What's the difference between a car that is heavy weight or light weight? You wrote, "A modernzied car is a heavyweight which has been rebuilt in various ways to resemble a streamlined car, both inside and out." What is "streamlined"?
You wrote: "Keep in mind that to get the complete picture of a given train in the pre-Amtrak days you had to have date-matching timetables from EACH railroad. For this, it would be the Pennsylvania from NYC to WAS; the Southern from WAS to ATL, the Atlanta and West Point from ATl to Montgomery and the Louisvlle & Nashville from Montogmery to NOL. My weakest link is in A&WP timetables, I have a very few of them; quite a bit of the others. An example fo what I mean would be that the L&N timetable would not show that NYC-Charllotte sleeper, since it did not venture onto L&N rails."
I didn't understand about the date-matching. Does what you wrote above mean people have to get off the train and change trains like you have to change airplanes?
I don't need to know about every stop since Jen is too little to care about such things. She just doesn't know where she is going or why.
You wrote: "Another person gave you the consist out of his timetable and mentioned the coaches. You will note the timetable does not say how many coaches. This is because the Piedmont was not a reserved seat train. Timetables usually only listed the exact number of coaches(and the number of seats ini them) when seats were reserved. But I would think that it had about 3 or 4 coaches from WAS to NOL, one or two WAS to ATl. North of Wash no telling since those would have been largely used to people traveling within thie corrider."
I didn't see this. I have copied the entire page from the Web site and didn't find this on this page:
http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?...&qpid=86386
I think what this means is that there were three or four cars that were coach cars.
You wrote: "Between NYC and WAS it would not be considered JUST the Piedmont Limited, it probably was really a local NYC-WAS train with through cars for delivery to the Piedmont Limited and probably various other trains to points south, and not just for the Southern Railroad, maybe some Seaboard, ACL, etc."
What I think this means is that different railroad companies would calll the train different names, depending on how many cars they owned that were attached to the Piedmont.
You wrote: "I gave you a consist and it showed drawing rooms and compartments, double bedrooms and sections. The drawing room is the msot expensive, in that order." I could not find your consist on this page, but that I can have it is enough. Would there be a drawing room with compartment on another sleeper car for her brother, or are all those kinds of compartments only on the same car?
You write that the "10 Section lounge sleeper is a combination car, 10 sections at one end, a lounge at the other. Not unusual back then." Is a "section" a sleeping compartment?
Why is there a difference between a sleeper lounge (put on in D.C.) and a daytime lounge? A lounge is a club car, right?
You wrote: "It is hard for my 62 year old eyes to read that reverse type on an equipment consist but it looks llike it is describing the Washingotn Altanta New Orleans express, not the Piedmont Limited."
So when the train leaves New York, it is a local? And at D.C. it's becomes the New Orleans express? It is never called the Piedmont Limited? I don't really care about that except it's such a nice name and people know that train.
Re my sobbing heroine, would a conductor just be passing through her car when she's in the corridor/hall? When does he sleep? Could he kneel down and pat her and she would throw herself on his shoulder? Would he then disengage her? I didn't think there was that much of a sense of impropriety back then with a father figure sort of person comforting a child. If there was, then I could have him disengage by offering her a glass of warm milk. Would her let her go with him while he fixed it?
You wrote: "Would be glad to send you xerox copies of that and the timetable. Also descriptions of the sleeping car rooms and illustrations of what they would look like." That would be fantastic! Is there a way to give you my e-mail without posting it?
Thanks SOOOOO much! Finding you and this list was a godsend.
Veleka
V
Veleka
Guest
I didn't see these two posts, so I sent my long one with a LOT of questions! Here's a few more:
Is "Pennsylvania R.R. timetable" the same thing as "PRR"? I no longer have a Monopoly game, but aren't some of these trains in that game?
I will look up the GG1's. Was it anything like the train in "Back To The Future III? Was there smoke? Did diesel make smoke? Or was that smoke actually steam?
Raises another thought: I believed that engines ran on coal like in the movies. Isn't diesel some type of gasoline?
Veleka
jg greenwood
Train Attendant
- Joined
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In the early to mid-50's I traveled from East Saint Louis, IL. to Atlanta, GA. via passenger train. IIRC, I left from the old L&N yard in ESTL. Any of our passenger experts have a clue as to what train this was? I appreciate anyone filling in the blanks.........
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Interesting facts and notes in old railroad magazines
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