Rules regarding Diner doubling as a lounge

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Tlcooper44

Tlcooper44

Conductor
AU Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2021
Messages
1,072
Location
Boston/Hong Kong
I’m currently aboard the Empire Builder, and the train is, as predicted, packed.

The lounge is full with no seats in sight. I asked the Dining attendant if we could hang out at one of the empty tables, and he gave a frustrated and unequivocal no.

Is this common practice/rules? Or is it a train by train/crew by crew basis. On our zephyr trip last year, it was very ok for us to hang in the diner.
 
Enforcement of policies varies widely on Amtrak, but in general you can't hang out in the diner. For one thing, the crew has to set up, or has already set up, for the next meal. Also, the dining car staff works harder than anyone else on the train. From early in the morning to very late at night, they are dealing with customers. They get a few hours break between meals and need a little time off. Some of them slip off to unused rooms, but mostly they just unwind in the car.

The Rail Passenger Association is on a campaign to be extra nice to crew. They are just at the very edge of having to cancel trains, so we need to do our best to hang on to the ones we have.
 
Sounds like a crew-rule. Unless it's a COVID-thing. I was on the Builder in 2019 and the SSL was full of a raucous, noisy group. We went and sat in the diner, no trouble.
 
Tlcooper93 said:
I’m currently aboard the Empire Builder, and the train is, as predicted, packed.

The lounge is full with no seats in sight. I asked the Dining attendant if we could hang out at one of the empty tables, and he gave a frustrated and unequivocal no.

Is this common practice/rules? Or is it a train by train/crew by crew basis. On our zephyr trip last year, it was very ok for us to hang in the diner.
Click to expand...

When we were on the EB a few years ago pre-Covid, we never saw anyone except staff sitting in the diner except at meals. If the SSL was full, we checked the lower cafe or went back to our bedroom, where luckily we could see across the aisle and see both sides.
I suspect there is a new rule, in addition, to keep the staff from sharing space with the unevenly vaccinated and possibly symptomatic clients. If I were staff I would want that, wouldn't be surprised if it came from the union.
However, as I mentioned in another thread, I was kinda pissed to find, on the Cardinal, the staff keeping multiple unused tables Reserved for Crew in the larger part of the cafe car while the clients had to squish into the smaller part, where some booths don't even have windows. Come on Amtrak, these are once-in-a-lifetime trips for some riders. Windows and booths are our reason to live.
 
Fully agree about crew use of lounge space, especially on east coast cafe cars. It isn't unusual to see crew spread their stuff over two or three tables. Amtrak has never seen fit to keep employees from doing it. Now most cafe cars have a policy of only using the space while eating food purchased from the cafe. No more personal food allowed, and no hanging around shooting the breeze with other passengers. Just see how slowly you can drink a beer...
 
Brian Battuello said:
Fully agree about crew use of lounge space, especially on east coast cafe cars. It isn't unusual to see crew spread their stuff over two or three tables. Amtrak has never seen fit to keep employees from doing it. Now most cafe cars have a policy of only using the space while eating food purchased from the cafe. No more personal food allowed, and no hanging around shooting the breeze with other passengers. Just see how slowly you can drink a beer...
Click to expand...

Exactly, I do buy their food (good hot dogs actually) and drink coffee and beer all day. Well, one till 2 PM and the other after 4 PM. 🤣
 
One thing to remember - for a large portion of 2020 and earlier this year flexible dining was served on western trains. During that period they were a bit more laid back about people hanging out in the dining car. Now that they are back to traditional dining with the full table setups I’d expect it’s back to no hanging out in the diner. If you go there after dinner service is done you may find some crews don’t care if you grab a table - but during meal service expect diner to be dining only - with no guarantees outside of that. A price I’m happy to pay for the improved dining product.
 
lordsigma said:
One thing to remember - for a large portion of 2020 and earlier this year flexible dining was served on western trains. During that period they were a bit more laid back about people hanging out in the dining car. Now that they are back to traditional dining with the full table setups I’d expect it’s back to no hanging out in the diner. If you go there after dinner service is done you may find some crews don’t care if you grab a table - but during meal service expect diner to be dining only - with no guarantees outside of that. A price I’m happy to pay for the improved dining product.
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One thing to remember about Flex Dining -- bad as the food is, part of the deal is that sleeper passengers can use the diner as a lounge. This works best with the trains that have Viewliner 2 diners, but I had a good experience on the Capitol Limited with the Cross Country Cafe "Diner-Lounge" that was used by both coach and sleeper passengers, as they have removed (hopefully temporarily) the Sightseer Lounge. I also had a decent experience using the sleeper side of the Amfleet cafe car on the Cardinal, but that was back in November 2019, and I've seen postings here that since Covid, the staff has been a little more restrictive in non-meal lounge use.
 
lordsigma said:
One thing to remember - for a large portion of 2020 and earlier this year flexible dining was served on western trains. During that period they were a bit more laid back about people hanging out in the dining car. Now that they are back to traditional dining with the full table setups I’d expect it’s back to no hanging out in the diner. If you go there after dinner service is done you may find some crews don’t care if you grab a table - but during meal service expect diner to be dining only - with no guarantees outside of that. A price I’m happy to pay for the improved dining product.
Click to expand...
THIS! It’s not hard to understand, last year MANY chose to eat in their rooms and travel was down, and flex meals don’t require any table preparation. So few tables were being used and the ones that weren’t didn’t require anything from staff so they were free to use. Now, ESPECIALLY with packed trains and with traditional dining, they need to use every single table and all tables have to be setup for every meal. It’s really not about consistency or staff making up rules IMO, but common sense.
 
Brian Battuello said:
Fully agree about crew use of lounge space, especially on east coast cafe cars. It isn't unusual to see crew spread their stuff over two or three tables. Amtrak has never seen fit to keep employees from doing it. Now most cafe cars have a policy of only using the space while eating food purchased from the cafe. No more personal food allowed, and no hanging around shooting the breeze with other passengers. Just see how slowly you can drink a beer...
Click to expand...
The new Avelia Liberty cafe cars don't even have seating, just takeout counter and some standing space. Which is actually becoming the norm in Europe. I think the cafe cars on order from Siemens are supposed to have seating, but I also think they should include a conductor kiosk and a crew compartment. It'd be less confusing for passengers and at least look better than a random amount of off-limited tables.
 
It's just my opinion but it seems like the dining car staff could allow some sleeper passengers to use a couple booths at the lounge side of the diner when available rather than push everyone into a standing room only situation. That is not to say that I have ever seen them do this. If you board the Westbound Zephyr* in Denver you could easily be left without any available lounge seating through no fault of your own. A little compassion could go a long way here.

*typo corrected - thanks @PVD
 
Last edited:
Devil's Advocate said:
It's just my opinion but it seems like the dining car staff could allow some sleeper passengers to use a couple booths at the lounge side of the diner when available rather than push everyone into a standing room only situation. That is not to say that I have ever seen them do this. If you board the Westbound Zephyr* in Denver you could easily be left without any available lounge seating through no fault of your own. A little compassion could go a long way here.

*typo corrected - thanks @PVD
Click to expand...

agreed. I realize they need staging area space, but it seems at least half the tables (perhaps in non COVID times) could go towards an alternate sleeper lounge.
 
Tlcooper93 said:
I’m currently aboard the Empire Builder, and the train is, as predicted, packed.

The lounge is full with no seats in sight. I asked the Dining attendant if we could hang out at one of the empty tables, and he gave a frustrated and unequivocal no.

Is this common practice/rules? Or is it a train by train/crew by crew basis. On our zephyr trip last year, it was very ok for us to hang in the diner.
Click to expand...
I have never known of or seen a dining car crew allow lounge car passengers to spill into the diner, and I’ve got over 50 years of rail riding. It’s not train by train; it never happens. Now, there used to be diner lounges. My only diner lounge experience was on the Rock Island. Those cars had lounge chairs at one end. I assume if dinner was slow, they might have opened up a table, though I doubt that was a big problem on the Rock. In any event, what you experience is exactly what I would have expected.
 
toddinde said:
I have never known of or seen a dining car crew allow lounge car passengers to spill into the diner, and I’ve got over 50 years of rail riding. It’s not train by train; it never happens. Now, there used to be diner lounges. My only diner lounge experience was on the Rock Island. Those cars had lounge chairs at one end. I assume if dinner was slow, they might have opened up a table, though I doubt that was a big problem on the Rock. In any event, what you experience is exactly what I would have expected.
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That seems to be what the case is. I guess my experiences have been rare because this is the first time I have not been able to use the diner as a lounge.
 
On east coast trains they allow sleeping car passengers to sit in the diner outside of meal times. This is part of the flexible dining thing.

Since most west coast trains have sightseer lounge cars I’m pretty sure that even when flex ding was in practice passengers did not sit in the diner. On my trips the trains were not that crowded so sitting in the lounge car was east to do.

Had the lounge car been crowded it never would have occurred to me to even ask because I’m used to the policy of no passengers between meal times.
 
I've been in the diner after hours quite a few times. But I also was somewhat an invited guest because of my PV work and we would talk shop most of the time.

The best time though was before my PV days. The Auto Train running behind my Silver Star had a motor fail so they pulled one of the three off the Silver Star in Rocky Mount and they let a few of us hang out there in while the lights were out. We had the emergency flares lit, and had a small party with like six people and the diner crew. Drinks and card games. It was quite fun.
 
Cal said:
THIS! It’s not hard to understand, last year MANY chose to eat in their rooms and travel was down, and flex meals don’t require any table preparation. So few tables were being used and the ones that weren’t didn’t require anything from staff so they were free to use. Now, ESPECIALLY with packed trains and with traditional dining, they need to use every single table and all tables have to be setup for every meal. It’s really not about consistency or staff making up rules IMO, but common sense.
Click to expand...
I think it is even more than consistency. It's also about cleanliness, sanitation, and extra work.

What's going to stop a passenger sitting in the diner instead of or because there is no room in the SSL from messing things up. From using the napkin or the cutlery, to playing around with thins, spilling their own food or drinks, and leaving the tables in anything but the pristine setup (and I have always found the setup to be excellently done), were I to be the person who set it up, I'd be unhappy with how some people leave things. Worse, they might use the cutlery then put it back in the napkin unsanitized. Or their presence means the seats and tables may not be safe for the diner customer who expected Covid cleanliness.

Ever sit at a sticky table or on a sticky seat? You blame the server for not cleaning it instead of some pig for dirtying it because they did so after it was cleaned.

The same thing doesn't apply to "flex diners" which are probably unsanitary because the previously consumed "food" made it so and there is no such thing as cleaned cutlery or napkins or tablecloths.
 
We may be having some mixups of terms, or at least I am. I am envisioning three different things when I hear "diner" vs "dining car" vs "cafe car." Not sure what people mean by "diner" or "lounge car." The SSL (sightseer lounge) is the fabulous viewing car in the West, with booths and lounge chairs, but doesn't have food on the upper level, just in the cafe (I think they call it) on the lower level.

My gripe has been with the Cafe Car (eastern type) that is split into two booth areas with the self-serve Cafe in the middle. This is what we had recently on the Cardinal, and is on most of the NEC trains. The Amtrak crew should sit on the side that doesn't have windows for all the booths and seems to be smaller. Right now, they have the good side, and they aren't using all of it. I'm guessing they're less interested in looking at and photographing the scenery than the travelers are. Let us have the windows, and give us more booths.
 
It all comes down to customer service vs. crew convenience. It makes sense to allow passengers to use the dining car space in between meal services and I would argue that the diner SHOULD be used as an upscale sleeper lounge during those times.

But obviously it’s easier for the crew if they don’t allow passengers to use the space.
 

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