SEPTA plans to scrap Key Card fare collection to smartphone system

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Fenway

Fenway

Lead Service Attendant
AU Supporting Member
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Feb 25, 2022
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MARC Rider said:
1. What do people without smartphones do to pay fares?
2. How will this affect the fare-free Senio Key Cards?
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Generally, an RFID-compatible card remains available. Some systems' gates also accept credit cards as direct payment.

There's no reason the system couldn't be designed to accept a free pass loaded to a phone or card. It might take some extra programming.
 
joelkfla said:
Generally, an RFID-compatible card remains available. Some systems' gates also accept credit cards as direct payment.

There's no reason the system couldn't be designed to accept a free pass loaded to a phone or card. It might take some extra programming.
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How on earth did SEPTA miss the boat on phones to begin with? The system went live in 2016?????
 
Having the ability to just pay directly with a contactless card would be very nice. I did that traveling in London and it is very convenient. People should be able to buy transit rides the same way as they buy anything else. This very common in Europe which seems to be moving toward a cashless society faster than we are. Of course they still need provisions for people who do not have contactless credit cars or smartphones.
 
AmtrakMaineiac said:
Having the ability to just pay directly with a contactless card would be very nice. I did that traveling in London and it is very convenient. People should be able to buy transit rides the same way as they buy anything else. This very common in Europe which seems to be moving toward a cashless society faster than we are. Of course they still need provisions for people who do not have contactless credit cars or smartphones.
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They have had the good old Oyster Card for the smartphone and credit card-less. Incidentally, London and New York use the same platform.
 
AmtrakMaineiac said:
Having the ability to just pay directly with a contactless card would be very nice. I did that traveling in London and it is very convenient. People should be able to buy transit rides the same way as they buy anything else. This very common in Europe which seems to be moving toward a cashless society faster than we are. Of course they still need provisions for people who do not have contactless credit cars or smartphones.
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I completely agree with you. Cashless payment method is quite convenient.
 
Cashless payment may be easy but it's also full of middlemen who all want a cut. Cash and checks can still be used as 1:1 payment options, but with cashless purchases we get to pay a consumer bank fee, a merchant bank fee, and one or more network/processing fees behind the scenes. I think there should be a law where US banks have to provide a running total of every hidden fee you ever paid to access your own money. Imagine getting a report in retirement age showing you blindly spent tens-of-thousands on cashless convenience. At least we get a bunch of perpetually devalued loyalty points for our trouble.

joelkfla said:
Some systems' gates also accept credit cards as direct payment.
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Few public transit systems make a profit or control their own pricing so taking credit cards directly can mean they eat 1% to 5% in processing fees.

AmtrakMaineiac said:
This very common in Europe which seems to be moving toward a cashless society faster than we are.
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Probably because their card use and processing fees are tiny compared to American fees and credit rates.
 
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Devil's Advocate said:
Probably because their card use and processing fees are tiny compared to American fees and credit rates.
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That is indeed a key factor. India for example has gone more cashless than the US in POS transactions, even though each transaction involves a tiny amount of transfer and even tinier fee. It is said that there are more cashless transactions in a year in India than there will be in the US in over 5 years. At any random roadside stall you can use bank to bank transfer applications using the RBI (Reserve Bank of India) mediated UPI (Universal Payment Interface) based Smartphone Apps like PayTM to pay for a cup of tea (around 15c or less when converted to US $) by simply reading a QR code displayed by each vendor and a tap on the phone.

Anyhow, for any turnstile fare collection someone has to pay the piper. If it is all done in house then the cost of it gets buried in the fare accounting. If it uses an instrument from a contractor then the cost becomes more visible. Just because there is no visible interface at which the cost becomes visible does not mean that there is no cost. The reason the vendors have gone to using cashless is because the cost of handling cash is non-trivial and sometimes pretty large.

One interesting aspect of India's move to cashless POS is that it is almost entirely based on QR Codes and not NFC. So even paper tickets continue to work as they now have a QR code on it, and is usable with the same reader as used for Smartphones. The emphasis is on reducing cost to the minimum instead of going for technical whizbang but at much higher unit cost.
 
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Devil's Advocate said:
Cashless payment may be easy but it's also full of middlemen who all want a cut. Cash and checks can still be used as 1:1 payment options, but with cashless purchases we get to pay a consumer bank fee, a merchant bank fee, and one or more network/processing fees behind the scenes. I think there should be a law where US banks have to provide a running total of every hidden fee you ever paid to access your own money. Imagine getting a report in retirement age showing you blindly spent tens-of-thousands on cashless convenience. At least we get a bunch of perpetually devalued loyalty points for our trouble.


Few public transit systems make a profit or control their own pricing so taking credit cards directly can mean they eat 1% to 5% in processing fees.


Probably because their card use and processing fees are tiny compared to American fees and credit rates.
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I just saw a YouTube about some people suing the US NPS because they don't accept cash for facility fees (i.e. admission) at some sites. One of the NPS' retorts was that the costs of handling and security risks connected with cash outweigh the network fees paid on card transactions. They also said said that the extra time needed to handle cash transactions could potentially lead to an increase in staffing to avoid backups at the gates.
 
joelkfla said:
One of the NPS' retorts was that the costs of handling and security risks connected with cash outweigh the network fees paid on card transactions. They also said said that the extra time needed to handle cash transactions could potentially lead to an increase in staffing to avoid backups at the gates.
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Who said cash needs to be handled by hand at the gate? A vending machine that exchanges cash for a card/token usable at the gate works just as well. No sticky fingers, cash registers, burglaries, or clogged gates required. Vending machines are not free but they're cheaper than extra labor and avoidable lawsuits.
 
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Devil's Advocate said:
Who said cash needs to be handled by hand at the gate? A vending machine that exchanges cash for a card/token usable at the gate works just as well. No sticky fingers, cash registers, burglaries, or clogged gates required. Vending machines are not free but they're cheaper than extra labor and avoidable lawsuits.
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The situation is normally a drive thru gate at a National Park. You'd have to set up a vending machine somewhere, in its own lane or to the side. But you still have to collect the cash from it and deal with fussy bill acceptors.

A better solution would have stores nearby sell gift cards. Same thing could be done for subway fares, preloaded cards.
 
alanh said:
The situation is normally a drive thru gate at a National Park. You'd have to set up a vending machine somewhere, in its own lane or to the side. But you still have to collect the cash from it and deal with fussy bill acceptors. A better solution would have stores nearby sell gift cards. Same thing could be done for subway fares, preloaded cards.
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Yeah, I did not know what NPS was actually referring to and neither did google without more context. Now that I know, selling cheap or same-cost entry cards in stores sounds fine. Personally I spend my money every which way, including cashless. I like having options and think cash should remain a viable option for people who need it. In many ways going cashless is bad for people on the margins who do not have the same structure and options as the rest of us.
 
Have no idea but the expense of using credit cards might be more than offset by a higher percentage of fares paid Vs, fare evasion??? I suspect that any agency doing such a study would try to hide the results?
 
This whole project is such an embarrassment. They have sunk nearly a quarter billion dollars into that mess. It’s hugely glitchy. It was meant to debut in 2013. It finally came to full implementation over COVID. The old analog system was far from perfect, but for the time and money sunk into this, SEPTA should have produced a world class fare collection system and a few other things, not at best a lateral move.
 
jis said:
They have had the good old Oyster Card for the smartphone and credit card-less. Incidentally, London and New York use the same platform.
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Yeah, Cubic is the vendor who runs a lot of cities systems, including here in Chicago. The problem is they only run them as well as the transit systems demand. In London it's great, and my understanding is that there are penalties for not meeting certain standards.

Here in Chicago (where the CTA board is largely made up of political cronies with no experience in transportation and none of them even ride the system) there is no real sense of accountability so it runs much worse than the Oyster card despite being the same company. The failure rate is much higher than London - tapping your card it it doesn't go, or being told you have insufficient fare despite having just put money on your card, for example.

One of the most annoying things, and something that has been complained about since Ventra started 11 years ago, is that when you scan your card there is no display to tell you how much money you have left on your stored value or time left on your pass. It's a simple, basic feature but important for those who do not have a credit card to connect to your card for auto reload, or for those of us that choose to load it with cash instead of registering our card (the tracking ability is creepy, that data is actually being subpoenaed now in divorce cases). The only way to find out how much money you have on your card is to stop at a Ventra vending machine in a station. It is also very tourist-unfriendly.

When I visit London I know how much I have left every time I tap the card. It seems the only reason they don't do it here is no one makes them.
 
jasminvirgelzaa72 said:
I wonder who needs cash so badly, can you link to this video? Thanks for the reply right away!
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I wonder why you need other customers to lose the ability to pay with cash so badly?

joelkfla said:
It was just a lawyer talking about the suit. It appeared to be some people complaining that they were being inconvenienced by being forced to use cards.
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I find it interesting how the two sides on this topic can be condensed to "Let people pay how they want (within reason)" and "Only let people pay my way."
 
Devil's Advocate said:
I wonder why you need other customers to lose the ability to pay with cash so badly?


I find it interesting how the two sides on this topic can be condensed to "Let people pay how they want (within reason)" and "Only let people pay my way."
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Thank you, DA. Very well said, and I agree with you completely.

I was getting ready to apply for my SEPTA senior key card (original expired before I got around to renewing it).

Does anyone here know, are the senior ones going away as well? If so, and using a credit card or a smartphone is the only way to pay, I won’t bother using SEPTA anymore. I’ll just walk if it’s a short distance or take Lyft if it’s longer. I do not care to be forced to pay a certain way, so they will not get my money.
 
Devil's Advocate said:
I find it interesting how the two sides on this topic can be condensed to "Let people pay how they want (within reason)" and "Only let people pay my way."
Click to expand...
Indeed these changes are more likely to take place if the right situation arises where people want to do something rather than being forced to do something.

In India the universal availability for paying for everything using UPI cashless contactless became available just as COVID was ramping up and people jumped at the facility since not may people really want to handle the filthy cash notes and coins if they can help it, even without COVID. It was sort of like wrist watches were replaced by pocket communication devices in a short period of time. This time it was money exchange using Camera and UPI App equipped handhelds. But of course no one is prevented from using cash. It may take longer as you stand in line waiting to get cash service. For UPI payment all you need to do is get the device to read a QR code posted by the vendor which can be done from quite a distance, so seldom requires standing in line.
Mystic River Dragon said:
Thank you, DA. Very well said, and I agree with you completely.

I was getting ready to apply for my SEPTA senior key card (original expired before I got around to renewing it).

Does anyone here know, are the senior ones going away as well? If so, and using a credit card or a smartphone is the only way to pay, I won’t bother using SEPTA anymore. I’ll just walk if it’s a short distance or take Lyft if it’s longer. I do not care to be forced to pay a certain way, so they will not get my money.
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The Key Card is actually a Mastercard Debit Card attached to the Wallet account. Most contactless payment systems allow designation of a card for special fare treatment like Senior Fare etc. So no matter what system is used I doubt that there will be no means to have something equivalent to the Senior Key Card. Go ahead and renew it and when the time comes I am sure SEPTA will let you know if you need to do anything differently to maintain your Senior status for their fare payment system.
 
jis said:
Indeed these changes are more likely to take place if the right situation arises where people want to do something rather than being forced to do something.

In India the universal availability for paying for everything using UPI cashless contactless became available just as COVID was ramping up and people jumped at the facility since not may people really want to handle the filthy cash notes and coins if they can help it, even without COVID. It was sort of like wrist watches were replaced by pocket communication devices in a short period of time. This time it was money exchange using Camera and UPI App equipped handhelds. But of course no one is prevented from using cash. It may take longer as you stand in line waiting to get cash service. For UPI payment all you need to do is get the device to read a QR code posted by the vendor which can be done from quite a distance, so seldom requires standing in line.

The Key Card is actually a Mastercard Debit Card attached to the Wallet account. Most contactless payment systems allow designation of a card for special fare treatment like Senior Fare etc. So no matter what system is used I doubt that there will be no means to have something equivalent to the Senior Key Card. Go ahead and renew it and when the time comes I am sure SEPTA will let you know if you need to do anything differently to maintain your Senior status for their fare payment system.
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I have my CC card in NYC’s system so that I can get the senior fare.
 
AmtrakBlue said:
I have my CC card in NYC’s system so that I can get the senior fare.
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Me too. But they let me keep my Senior Metrocard, too. I guess I can use it to use up the cash stored in the account.

One difference is that the SEPTA Senior fare is essentially free, so it would seem sort of silly to tap a credit card for a $0.00 fare. My current card is good until 2027, so I'll have to wait until then to see what's going to happen.
 
MARC Rider said:
Me too. But they let me keep my Senior Metrocard, too. I guess I can use it to use up the cash stored in the account.

One difference is that the SEPTA Senior fare is essentially free, so it would seem sort of silly to tap a credit card for a $0.00 fare. My current card is good until 2027, so I'll have to wait until then to see what's going to happen.
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You do need to somehow actuate the turnstile and verify that the fare that one is eligible to pay (possibly $0) is collected. Easiest way to do that is to use the same instrument as for non-zero fares to open the gates.
 

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