Should Congress mandate Amtrak OTP?

[Sam Damon]

The title says it all.

Certainly in defense of the freight railroads it must be said they are handling more traffic with less trackage and less people than at any other time in their history. In that context, America's railroads are impressive.

Having said that, I have to say this. Even though passenger traffic has the potential to disrupt the freight railroads' operations to an extent, they are (with the apparent exemptions of BNSF, CP, and what used to be IC -- now CN) doing the nation a disservice by running Amtrak as they are. More and more Americans want a ground transportation alternative. They are not stupid. There have been enough horror stories promoted in the mass media concerning Amtrak's OBS service (or lack thereof) and OTP to keep them away.

The OBS problems Amtrak has are being addressed, perhaps not as quickly as those posting here may like, but keep in mind Amtrak is a far-flung company that has experienced waves of leadership changes over the past dozen or so years. But the OTP issues are a different matter. Amtrak only has the contracts with the freight railroads to haggle over. What OTP provisions are in those contracts we can only guess at this point. Even so, it is quite clear they are not satisfactory, as certain railroads seem to be taking their cues from the old Commodore: "The public be d@%&ed!"

IMO, the honorable thing to do is for UP, CSX, and NS to do would be to run Amtrak on time, and send Congress the bill.

Let the debate begin.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

As I understand it, the price of the freight railroads being able to unload the passengers services was the freight railroads' agreement to expedite Amtrak. Why should they be basically rewarded for not honoring what they agreed to do? That allows them to hold Amtrak OTP hostage for ransom just as Amtrak seems to be doing with Sunset East of NOL, trying to extort money from LA, MS, AL, and FL before they will agree to resume Sunset. I think that Congress ought to allow Amtrak , AND all of the individual passengers that have been and are being greatly inconvenienced and disrupted by the failure of the freight RRs to honor their obligations, to obtain realistic financial damages from the freight railroads for the delays that result. Paying the freight RRs to honor the OTP obligation rewards them for their dishonorable behavior.

 

[RailFanLNK]

Almost every person I have talked to or tried to "talk into" taking Amtrak has told me about "its never on time". They never know the reason why (host railroads) but to me, this one thing keeps the trains from being utilized so much more than they are. Sometimes, the hoops you have to jump to take the train due to the OTP is pain for people too. In LNK, if I want to take the #6 to CHI it could be here at 5am or it could be noon. That is a large "hoop" to jump through if you are just wanting to take Amtrak for the first time or because the airlines are full. So people look for something else instead.

Al

 

[Guest_Mark_*]

Almost every person I have talked to or tried to "talk into" taking Amtrak has told me about "its never on time". They never know the reason why (host railroads) but to me, this one thing keeps the trains from being utilized so much more than they are. Sometimes, the hoops you have to jump to take the train due to the OTP is pain for people too. In LNK, if I want to take the #6 to CHI it could be here at 5am or it could be noon. That is a large "hoop" to jump through if you are just wanting to take Amtrak for the first time or because the airlines are full. So people look for something else instead.
Al

Yes, yes, yes. OTP is VERY important in the eyes of the traveling public. It is time for our government to start looking at ways to get passenger rail off of the freights. Start fresh. I propose, where feasible create new, straighter direct lines as they have done in Europe. Where this is not possible add a, (government and or Amtrak owned), second or third main near existing freight trackage and reverse charge the freights to use it as needed. This way many grade crossings could be eliminated speeds could increase. I think if LD trains were doing 110 mph they would be more attractive than the present 79 maximum on most routes. LD travelers would begin to see this as a better option to their cars or busses and move LD trains into direct competition rather than just being an alternative. This would no doubt be very expensive but how much would it be worth to the freights to have a dedicated Amtrak main connected to theirs and get them out of the way? The government could pay say 50%-75% and the freights the rest.

That being said, it would be difficult for Congress to force the Freights into better Amtrak OTP in light of current freight shipping levels. They could however, make it hurt a bit more when the Freights sidline Amtrak trains for unreasonable amounts of time say, a million for ever hour the train runs late. I'd bet UP would quickly figure a way out to get Amtrak in under that first hour after racking up say, 200-300 million, (in a month), on the Coast Starlight alone.

 

[Sam Damon]

It is time for our government to start looking at ways to get passenger rail off of the freights. Start fresh. I propose, where feasible create new, straighter direct lines as they have done in Europe. Where this is not possible add a, (government and or Amtrak owned), second or third main near existing freight trackage and reverse charge the freights to use it as needed. This way many grade crossings could be eliminated speeds could increase. I think if LD trains were doing 110 mph they would be more attractive than the present 79 maximum on most routes. LD travelers would begin to see this as a better option to their cars or busses and move LD trains into direct competition rather than just being an alternative. This would no doubt be very expensive but how much would it be worth to the freights to have a dedicated Amtrak main connected to theirs and get them out of the way? The government could pay say 50%-75% and the freights the rest.

Sounds great in theory; less so in practice.

The problem comes about in no small part because the questions raised by private ownership of railroad cut across so many sections of US federal laws. When it comes right down to it, the questions of federalism being raised are not much different than those raised in the early days of the railroads.

A big difference in these times is the internal combustion engine. When railroads were building in the 19th century, there were few other transportation options. Not only that, the American people living then had a very different view of government than we have today. Your college professors might well describe it as "dual federalism" -- the states went their own way, and the feds another. US railways developed in no small part owing to this concept.

New rights of way would be nice, but the US transportation planning process means relief in the manner you describe would take at least a dozen years to implement, and we haven't even talked about how the government is to pay for it. I don't disagree that LD trains moving at 110 mph would get a number of travelers out of their cars.

(An aside: Despite the lack of Autobahns, US drivers are feeling free to bend posted speed limits these days. Read through this series of articles -- complete with searchable database -- by the Raleigh, NC News and Observer concerning speeding on North Carolina roads.)

I also agree with you that more track capacity is needed. It took 50 years for the US to build itself into a transportation mess, and it's going to take probably 50 years for the US to kind of straighten itself out. We seem to disagree on the measures which should be taken.

I say again: the freight railroads need to do the honorable thing, run Amtrak on time, and send the Congress a bill for doing so.

 

[daveyb99]

The only way to make OTP a high priority of any host is $$$$$$$$$$$$$.

So:

1. Provide a TAX CREDIT incentive to upgrade current AMTRAK routes to double or greater tracking.

2. Provide a TAX CREDIT incentive to upgrade any other trackage IF the host railroad keeps AMTRAK ontime.

This provision covers future expansion.

3. Host railroads to absorb "delay costs" if they participate in #1 or #2

4. More TAX CREDIT incentive for providing AMTRAK equipment and supplies, ie engines, sleepers, coach, etc., including FUEL.

5. AMTRAK and HOSTs participate in a JOINT COMMAND - to provide better communications between the parties, enhance realtime operational oversight, better tracking of trains and supply CURRENT ARRIVAL / DEPARTURE INFO for travelers.

 

[jphjaxfl]

The only way to make OTP a high priority of any host is $$$$$$$$$$$$$.
So:

1. Provide a TAX CREDIT incentive to upgrade current AMTRAK routes to double or greater tracking.

2. Provide a TAX CREDIT incentive to upgrade any other trackage IF the host railroad keeps AMTRAK ontime.

This provision covers future expansion.

3. Host railroads to absorb "delay costs" if they participate in #1 or #2

4. More TAX CREDIT incentive for providing AMTRAK equipment and supplies, ie engines, sleepers, coach, etc., including FUEL.

5. AMTRAK and HOSTs participate in a JOINT COMMAND - to provide better communications between the parties, enhance realtime operational oversight, better tracking of trains and supply CURRENT ARRIVAL / DEPARTURE INFO for travelers.

I think this is an excellent plan. The next step is to get Senators and Congressmen to back it and get the freight railroads to support. With the high cost of gas, congested highways and airways, it makes a lot of sense. Of course, the lobbies for highways, air transportation, automobile, oil companies and others will be against it, but they are the ones who got us into the transportation mess we have now.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Well, there's blame enough for about everybody. The freight railroads consolidated and then cut back on trackage, cut back on maintenance, and then when the amount of freight practically exploded they were on the back end of the power curve and unable do much more than groan under the glut of freight. As I understand it they are almost where most urban areas are, where they can't build roads fast enough or wide enough to keep up with rising demand, and they're 10 years behind as it is.

 

[AmtrakFan]

I do agree that OTP is a important part of Amtrak, but would a Congressional Mandate do anything to improve it?

 

[Dutchrailnut]

I do agree that OTP is a important part of Amtrak, but would a Congressional Mandate do anything to improve it?

No way how can congress mandate OTP on private property for service their not willing to pay for.

The original Amtrak mandate(law) is long dead and congress thought Amtrak would die over 10 years ago. only way Congess can encourage passenger train preference is by authorizing incentive pay.

currently Amtrak pays less per mile than what mileage generated by empty freight car.

Its time for our government to get off their ass and start spending money on both new equipment and pay the piper deals for Amtrak.

 

[Sam Damon]

No way how can congress mandate OTP on private property for service their not willing to pay for.

Sorry, Dutch. Please read Article I, Section 8, Clause 18 of the U.S. Constitution. Congress can mandate OTP if they so desire. Your key phrase is "not willing to pay for", as you're bringing the 5th Amendment into the picture. The freight railroads might well assert that their property is being taken for public use without compensation. Trouble is, how has Amtrak gone on since 1971, if the Amtrak legislation runs afoul of the 5th Amendment rights the freight railroads may or may not have?

Sorting these issues out is where the public policy becomes complicated.

Its time for our government to get off their ass and start spending money on both new equipment and pay the piper deals for Amtrak.

Agreed.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Sam keep in mind Amtrak is not the US govenment its a railroad company owned by Govenment.

and no US congress can not demand acces to private property.

 

[Sam Damon]

Sam keep in mind Amtrak is not the US govenment its a railroad company owned by Govenment.

True.

and no US congress can not demand acces to private property.

Congress does not have to demand access to private property in these matters.

Congress can, on the other hand, pass laws governing interstate commerce. As an extreme example (purely to illustrate things, here, folks) Congress could well pass a law demanding that intercity passenger trains must have 85% OTP or freight railroads in question will have to pay an "excess profits tax" to the Treasury.

I'm not saying such a law would make the 218+51+1 cut, much less judicial review; I'm just saying the US government has the right to demand OTP from Amtrak should Congress sees fit.

Whether any of this is desirable is what we're exploring here. I will reassert: the honorable thing for the freight railroads to do is to run Amtrak on time, and send Congress a bill for services rendered. The American people do, by and large, listen quite well to rational arguments presented in a straightforward manner. It's the spinmeisters that mess things up.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Sam would that not be regulation , while congress just a few years ago de-regulated railroads ?? they can't have it both ways.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Somehow I doubt that it would be the first time they deregulated something and then a while later said "OOOOOOPS!!"

 

[Dakguy201]

CSX has been making noise about the desirability of federal funding to upgrade their freight service along the east coast. Any help CSX gets should some with some very strong guarantees relating to handling of Amtrak, including recapture in the event of nonperformance.