Sleeper tipping

[Chuckles]

Ah, I didn't realize there would be a "bill".

I also assumed food would be served all at once, not requiring multiple trips. Certainly everything on a tray would be fine with me.

 

[Texan Eagle]

Ah, I didn't realize there would be a "bill".
I also assumed food would be served all at once, not requiring multiple trips. Certainly everything on a tray would be fine with me.

I do not know if you have a physical condition that restricts your movement or are just shy of people, or just thinking going to the Dining Car is boring, but if it is neither of these, I would highly recommend having your meals in the Dining Car instead of brought to your room/ette. I, personally, find having meals sitting in the Dining Car looking at the scenery pass by and possibly also getting to meet some interesting people, has been the highlight of all my long distance Amtrak trips. I yearn to head to the Dining Car for every meal and sit as long as I can. Just my personal opinion.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Ah, I didn't realize there would be a "bill".
I also assumed food would be served all at once, not requiring multiple trips. Certainly everything on a tray would be fine with me.

Well, from what I've seen, everything is plated and covered, so there's no way to really condense it from the regular dining experience - with the cover, it's actually bulkier. I don't remember seeing any kind of tray, but they may have done so.

Either way, it's a lot of stuff. Just for dinner, for example, there's a salad, roll, coffee or tea (if you want it), the actual dinner plate, a dessert plate, and your drink. Not to mention salad dressings, silverware, and other condiments. And that's just for one person! Multiply that by several people in a roomette or bedroom, a moving train, and no dolly/cart like room service in a hotel would have, & it can be a lot of stuff. If they make a mistake, or forgot one thing, they'd have to go back and fix it. Plus, by the time you eat your salad, your main course will be cold and your dessert might have melted (unless it's the ice cream, which is always rock hard). And there's no way you're getting more coffee or a refill on your drink either.

I like the idea of eating in my sleeper. I really think Amtrak ought to offer some kind of "to go" meal in the dining car, so you can take it to the Sightseer Lounge or back to your room. However, I still think that the current system of asking your SCA to bring meals to your room is for people who are not physically able to get to the dining car.

 

[Bus Nut]

So?
They willingly took that job with the knowledge that they would earn tips from most passengers.

Precisely.

There has been a lot of great info on this thread about customary tipping. It's good for passengers to know what the customary tip is because it is usual and expected (for standard service--lousy and exceptional are tipped differently).

Arguing the history, sociology, and morality of tipping in the US is IMO orthogonal to this discussion.

And I wouldn't necessarily call a below-minimum-wage restaurant job easier than working for Amtrak, though perhaps it involves fewer compromises. I would call it a lower-skilled job. Wages in the US are tied to skill level and the number of distinct skills that the worker must master to complete the job. Life for diner waitstaff can be very hard. (Read Nickled and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich for one woman's account of this life.)

 

[Bus Nut]

Don't fool yourself that by taking a pro-tipping position you are showing yourself to be nice, generous, even liberal. In fact it is a position that requires the existence of people lower than you who are sufficiently debased that they will take the tip.

As someone who has worked in food, entertainment, retail, and transportation, I disagree. Tipping in low wage restaurant work was degrading (although we needed the money and never refused it). I would prefer proper wages for food workers, plus health care and sick days (hello, public health!), and much less tipping. However, when I was in transportation, where union wage rates and work rules prevailed, tipping on "specials" or charters was seen in a positive light. Sometimes you did encounter patrons who attempt to use a big tip to attempt to bribe you to break the rules ("No, sir, that's not nearly enough money to make me do that," is the typical response.) or think that a tip excuses boorish behavior (which is infuriating). But usually there is a correlation between the patrons having a good time (the party bus) and tipping well. So drivers enjoy it and know their passengers had a great time. I would think that an SCA who takes pride in their work would have the same attitude. Passengers who are having a good day and have received good service will be in a tipping mood. Yes, there will be those who think they can buy something they shouldn't with a tip, but since the SCA's have too good of a job to give it up for a $20 or a $50, those folks will find out it doesn't work like that.

Sometimes you do see patrons right here on this board complaining about service when in fact they wanted Amtrak employees to do something that was against the rulebook. The good wages purchase loyalty and demand dedication to Amtrak's policies and procedures. We should expect this because every job on that train is safety-sensitive. So unlike the beleaguered $2.18/hr employee, tips are a bonus in this scenario, not the primary source of income.

My point is that if you're going to discuss the power balance in the scenario you can't equate a situation where tips are the primary source of income (cabbie, sub-minimum wage servers), to one where they are a bonus.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Here's some food for thought.

For simplicity's sake, let's say the average SCA does one round trip per week, 50 weeks a year. I know the schedules don't exactly work out that way - for longer trains, they probably get more days off, shorter trains they probably do more round trips.

Let's also say that the average SCA works 50 weeks per year, and makes $5,000-$10,000 per year in tips. That seems about average for what I've read on the internet.

For 50 weeks per year, that's $100-$200 per week. Or, $50-$100 per trip. If the average traveler tips the SCA $10-$20, then somewhere between 2.5 and 10 people PER TRIP actually tip the SCA.

In a superliner, there are 21 passenger rooms per car. Most people don't travel endpoint-to-endpoint, so each room is turned multiple times. Figure one turn per trip (I don't know the actual numbers, but it's greater than zero). That's 42 "rooms" serviced per trip. And still, only 2.5 to 10 people actually tip.

I know this is rough math, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Still, it seems like a fair estimation that somewhere between 5% and 25% of sleeper car passengers actually give their SCAs a tip. At least 75% of passengers give nothing.

I don't think I'd call that "customary".

 

[roomette]

I don't think I'd call that "customary".

I'd agree.

 

[AlanB]

I'm suspecting that those who suggest that being a restaurant server is an easy job have never worked as a restaurant server. Many servers at places like Applebees work double shifts - 10am to midnight. In most mass-market chains the servers help clean tables, and also are responsible for cleaning the restrooms and even sweeping the floors after closing.

Just to be clear, I never suggested that being a restaurant waiter was an easy job. It's not! I simply said that it's not comparable to being a waiter on an Amtrak train. A double shifts isn't comparable to triple shift. Helping to clear the tables isn't the same has having no choice but to clear the tables. Carrying a tray full of hot coffee cups in a restaurant without spilling any requires some skill. Doing the same on a train that can lurch badly at any given and unexpected moment is almost an art form.

 

[roomette]

I'm suspecting that those who suggest that being a restaurant server is an easy job have never worked as a restaurant server. Many servers at places like Applebees work double shifts - 10am to midnight. In most mass-market chains the servers help clean tables, and also are responsible for cleaning the restrooms and even sweeping the floors after closing.

Just to be clear, I never suggested that being a restaurant waiter was an easy job. It's not! I simply said that it's not comparable to being a waiter on an Amtrak train. A double shifts isn't comparable to triple shift. Helping to clear the tables isn't the same has having no choice but to clear the tables. Carrying a tray full of hot coffee cups in a restaurant without spilling any requires some skill. Doing the same on a train that can lurch badly at any given and unexpected moment is almost an art form.

Not that you're comparing or anything.

 

[AlanB]

Anyone have any idea how much a SCA or Dining Car Staff person makes in tips on average?

Or, perhaps, another way to ask it is, What percentage of their take home pay is in cash gratuities?

Something else that just came to mind is with regards to taxes. Does Amtrak have an official form that the SCA and SAs are required to declare their tips on for taxes? In restaurants, all tips are to be declared. We know from practice that generally only the tips that make up minimum wage are declared or else a blanket assumption is made based on revenue per pay period. Since neither of these apply to SCAs or SAs, me thinks all these tips are completely bypassing Uncle Sam.

I don't believe that there is anything in place for the SCA's and coach attendants. But I'm pretty sure that there is some procedure in place for the dining car staff that requires them to report a certain amount of tips. I don't know the exact procedure however.

For regular restaurants, the IRS take the total sales for the restaurant and applies 7.5% last I knew to that total. If the staff didn't collectively claim at least that amount in tips, then they've got big problems.

 

[AlanB]

Maybe she just had a headache and was exhausted from all the long hours and wishes she was a restaurant waiter working fewer hours, going home every night, had a bus boy to clear tables, didn't have a rocking & rolling floor, wasn't safety trained on what to do if the restaurant crashes, and doesn't work an 15 hour day.

Who could blame her?

And gets paid $2 an hour with few tips with that attitude instead of her $40 an hour union wage job with Amtrak and plenty of time off between trips. These people need to do their jobs or find other jobs away from trains. I read entirely too many complaints on here about these surely do-nothings feeding at the Amtrak trough.

Guys,

I'm not saying that the work conditions excuse bad behavior or laziness on the part of the staff. And frankly I don't appreciate the implication that what I wrote was written to excuse that. :angry:

Nothing excuses bad behavior or failure to do one's job at least adequately!

What I wrote concerns nothing more than what they get paid to do a job and the fact that they may earn a few extra dollars thanks to tips. If you get a bad employee, don't give them a tip. And furthermore, file a report! Get their name and report them to Amtrak! It's the only way to fix the problem children.

 

[AlanB]

I like the idea of eating in my sleeper. I really think Amtrak ought to offer some kind of "to go" meal in the dining car, so you can take it to the Sightseer Lounge or back to your room. However, I still think that the current system of asking your SCA to bring meals to your room is for people who are not physically able to get to the dining car.

I've heard/seen a few stories of LSA's in the dining car who wouldn't do to-go meals; but most will indeed do it. And there is no official Amtrak policy that prohibits to-go meals from the dining car.

 

[NW cannonball]

So?
They willingly took that job with the knowledge that they would earn tips from most passengers.

Precisely.

There has been a lot of great info on this thread about customary tipping. It's good for passengers to know what the customary tip is because it is usual and expected (for standard service--lousy and exceptional are tipped differently).

Arguing the history, sociology, and morality of tipping in the US is IMO orthogonal to this discussion.

And I wouldn't necessarily call a below-minimum-wage restaurant job easier than working for Amtrak, though perhaps it involves fewer compromises. I would call it a lower-skilled job. Wages in the US are tied to skill level and the number of distinct skills that the worker must master to complete the job. Life for diner waitstaff can be very hard. (Read Nickled and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich for one woman's account of this life.)

Thank you a bundle - for the reference -- (Read Nickled and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich for one woman's account of this life.)

And for the insight.

 

[Ryan]

I like the idea of eating in my sleeper. I really think Amtrak ought to offer some kind of "to go" meal in the dining car, so you can take it to the Sightseer Lounge or back to your room. However, I still think that the current system of asking your SCA to bring meals to your room is for people who are not physically able to get to the dining car.

I've heard/seen a few stories of LSA's in the dining car who wouldn't do to-go meals; but most will indeed do it. And there is no official Amtrak policy that prohibits to-go meals from the dining car.

we've done it a handful of times from both coach and sleeper without any issues. It's really a winner for everyone, we get a meal without taking up precious table space, it's less work for the dining car staff to just deliver a full meal and be done with it, and no impact at all on the sleeping car attendant.

 

[Ryan]

I don't think I'd call that "customary".

I'd agree.

I'd disagree. It's a bunch of handwavy justification using skewed numbers and best case assumptions at best. 21 rooms turned multiple times? Maybe on the CZ in summer, but that ain't average.
Tipping is customary. It may be less common than it used to be, and you can pull whatever numbers you want to out of thin air to try and justify, but at the end of the day it's a commonly accepted process. If you don't want to, that's a personal decision to be made, but the "nobody else does it, so I don't have to" defense is invalid.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

I don't think I'd call that "customary".

I'd agree.

I'd disagree. It's a bunch of handwavy justification using skewed numbers and best case assumptions at best. 21 rooms turned multiple times? Maybe on the CZ in summer, but that ain't average.
Tipping is customary. It may be less common than it used to be, and you can pull whatever numbers you want to out of thin air to try and justify, but at the end of the day it's a commonly accepted process. If you don't want to, that's a personal decision to be made, but the "nobody else does it, so I don't have to" defense is invalid.

Call it what you will. I may be generalizing some numbers, but I haven't heard anybody offer anything better. You (and others) are stating that it's "customary"; by that definition, I'm assuming you mean that "it's expected", and by that I mean that "the SCA is expecting it because most people do it". And despite the fact that everyone keeps saying that people actually do it, I have yet to see any evidence of it.

You don't like my turnover? Fine. Let's start with the general number: $10,000 a year. Does that seem reasonable? On top of a $60,000 a year salary, that person is making $70,000 a year. I'm already feeling like NOT tipping this person - my wife and I, when we were both teachers, made less than that COMBINED, so I'm already wondering why the SCA isn't tipping US for teaching their children! But let's say they're making $20,000 a year in tips. Now they're up to $80,000 a year. At some point in that range, I'm simply not going to tip at all, just on general principles - I don't care what job you're doing, you're making enough, you don't need more from me!

So, let's say $10,000 a year. Divide that by 50 weeks a year (2 weeks of vacation) and that's $200 per week. If each person is tipping $10-$20 (often recommended on this forum), that's only 10-20 people tipping per week, per SCA, for whatever trains they're on.

So, leaving my estimates of turnover, train capacity, trip frequency, etc. out of it, by what measure of any kind is 10-20 tips per week even a simple majority of passengers? Going back to my original point, as a suggestion to an international traveler who is "uncomfortable" with the American custom of handing money to a total stranger, how can you justify saying that tipping is an expected custom on American trains if only 10-20 people per week do it?

EDIT:

I've been doing some research to get more specifics. The SWC crew - whether LA or Chicago based - does the outbound route, spends one night in a hotel, then does the trip back. They then get 5-6 days off. So, that's about 10 days per "shift", or 6 shifts/trains (3 round trips) per month.

Each SWC train carries approximately 90 sleeper passengers over the length of the whole trip (I saw recent numbers that show an average of 87-91 over the past few years, as quoted from another thread here, which quoted the recent MPR). With 2 sleepers per car, that's 40 passengers per car (allowing 10 for the transdorm). So, each SCA serves 40 customers per trip. 40 customers x 6 trips per month = 240 customers per month.

If they're making $10,000 a year in tips, that's $833 per month. Divide that by 240 passengers, that's $3.47 per passenger, per trip.

That's how much an SCA on the SWC ACTUALLY makes (if the $10,000 amount is accurate; I've seen amounts that state half of that). I don't have any way of calculating how much people actually tip. Again, the recommended amount I often see here is $10-$20. If $10 per person per trip is is what you're "supposed" to tip, then only 1 in 3 people are tipping. If you're supposed to tip $20, then only 1 in 6 people are tipping.

So yeah, I still give international travelers a pass on this one.

 

[Ryan]

We have absolutely no way of knowing how much Amtrak employees make in tips.

Any analysis done on those numbers are pure fantasy.

But, lets assume that your $10,000 per year is accurate.

Your 240 passengers aren't all in rooms alone. The average is probably closer to 2 people per room (you've got some single travelers, but you've also got families of 3 and 4 in the bedrooms and family bedrooms).

Double that $3.47 and you're at $7/room. Not too far off from folks recommendation of ~$10. Lets assume that the average tip is $15 (smack dab in the middle of the $10-$20 suggestions I've seen), that $7 a room works out to roughly 50% of people tipping.

You're also ignoring the eastern trains - only 15 rooms in those cars, which changes the math appreciably.

Tipping is a lot more common than you think. If you don't want to tip because you think that they already make too much, own it. You're well within your right to. But don't try to muddle the waters with some made up justification that you're a part of some sort of silent majority that doesn't tip.

 

[dlagrua]

We've experienced some very good and helpful SCA's and a couple of terrible one's. After they take down the bed in the evening they will get $5.00. If they put it back up the next morning and all is well, they will receive another $5.00. I used to give them $10 from the gitgo but tips should be given as an appreciation for good service and not a given to be taken advantage of. SCA's already make big money so the tips make their salary even bigger.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

We have absolutely no way of knowing how much Amtrak employees make in tips.
Any analysis done on those numbers are pure fantasy.

But, lets assume that your $10,000 per year is accurate.

Your 240 passengers aren't all in rooms alone. The average is probably closer to 2 people per room (you've got some single travelers, but you've also got families of 3 and 4 in the bedrooms and family bedrooms).

Double that $3.47 and you're at $7/room. Not too far off from folks recommendation of ~$10. Lets assume that the average tip is $15 (smack dab in the middle of the $10-$20 suggestions I've seen), that $7 a room works out to roughly 50% of people tipping.

You're also ignoring the eastern trains - only 15 rooms in those cars, which changes the math appreciably.

Tipping is a lot more common than you think. If you don't want to tip because you think that they already make too much, own it. You're well within your right to. But don't try to muddle the waters with some made up justification that you're a part of some sort of silent majority that doesn't tip.

Okay, we don't have any hard facts about how much Amtrak employees actually make in tips. I think we can both agree on that. All we have are a few numbers reported to forum posters here, ascribed to the employees they talked to.

Having said that, how do you know that YOUR assumption is true? You & others state that "it's customary to tip SCAs", but you have no proof whatsoever that a majority of people actually ARE tipping, that it really is a custom that most people follow. It goes both ways.

One final note: Amtrak prints a disclaimer at the bottom of each dining car menu that says "Gratuity is at the passenger’s discretion." I have not yet found anything about tipping SCAs. Again, from what Amtrak informs its own riders, gratuities are discretionary, rather than mandatory.

 

[VentureForth]

Gratuity is almost always discretionary in the business and NO ONE here has said that ANY gratuity onboard Amtrak is mandatory. If it's manadatory, it's a service charge (common in other countries).

I think it is intellectually dishonest when restaurants say that for parties of 8 or more, a 15% gratuity is automatically added to the bill. Many restaurants now actually call that a service charge. Which then spurns the debate on whether an additional gratuitiy is to be offered.

Just like miles and gallons, we'll never get rid of tipping in the US of A

 

[white rabbitt]

will all this talking about tips

lets talk about the people who deserve tips

THE RED CAPS i am sure they are at the bottom'

of the amtrak pay scale and tips are how they make there living

there are no harder workers then the red caps, i dont hear anyone

stiffing the red caps, if they went out amtrak would be in trouble

 

[VentureForth]

Are redcaps actually Amtrak employees? If so, I'm sure they are paid well. Maybe not onboard services well, but they're paid well enough to keep their job. I don't think most of us beleive that we are paid what we feel we're worth. Everyone thinks they deserve a pay raise. Everyone wants more money to put it bluntly.

If they're hurting, they'll find another job. From the looks of it, most of them look like they have transitioned from the host railroads and kept their seniority to continue their job.

 

[white rabbitt]

Are redcaps actually Amtrak employees? If so, I'm sure they are paid well. Maybe not onboard services well, but they're paid well enough to keep their job. I don't think most of us beleive that we are paid what we feel we're worth. Everyone thinks they deserve a pay raise. Everyone wants more money to put it bluntly.
If they're hurting, they'll find another job. From the looks of it, most of them look like they have transitioned from the host railroads and kept their seniority to continue their job.

u would i assume tip a red cap to bring u and your luggage on a cart to the train

rather then take the kindergarden walk to your train

 

[VentureForth]

Generally, I would prefer to take the Kindergarten walk associated with being a sleeping car pax. I rarely carry that much baggage with me, and I am not anxious to beat the line just to beat the line.

But your question was not whether or not I would use a redcap - it was whether or not a redcap was paid sufficiently. That's what I answered.

 

[white rabbitt]

But your question was not whether or not I would use a redcap - it was whether or not a redcap was paid sufficiently. That's what I answered.

no u did not, u said alot of double talk

but not if u felt they deserve a tip for the job they are doing