Small service animal on Amtrak shuttle to laughlin nv

[BillVasi]

My g/f has a small service animal, that we have taken on Amtrak before. The problem is I have not talked to the shuttle service that goes from Kignman AZ to Laughlin Nv to see if a service animal is a problem. Anyone take this trip with a service animal??? Anyone know the name of the shuttle service I can call??

Thanks bill

 

[JoeBas]

Is it a service animal, or a comfort animal?

If it's a service animal, they pretty much have no choice but to transport.

If it's a comfort animal, well... Caveat emptor.

 

[BCL]

Is the service animal a dog? There is a federal interpretation that under the ADA that only a dog is considered a service animal.

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

Arizona law doesn't specify what kind of animal. Nevada law refers to a federal regulation, although the code says that it could be any animal. Nevada law also specifically mentions that miniature horses can be considered service animals. I thought that except for specific cases (such as parts of zoos), a legal service animal must be allowed.

The Southwest Chief schedule says the Kingman/Laughlin shuttle is operated by Commuter Services. Their phone number is on their website.

http://www.commuterservices.net/services.html

 

[MikefromCrete]

If it's a true service dog, then there is no problem. If its some other kind of plot to transport an animal, then I would say it's up to the individual carrier.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Is the service animal a dog? There is a federal interpretation that under the ADA that only a dog is considered a service animal.

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

That US Dept of Justice document starts out claiming only dogs, but later in their same document, adds miniature horses.

For verification, "Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform."

And as other here have mentioned, "Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA."

 

[BCL]

I'd find it hard to believe that a shuttle company would not allow a clearly understood service dog, but you never know. It's certainly the law (both state and federal) but it's not terribly comforting being denied service even if the company could be sued for noncompliance. I would think this has come up before and the vast majority of transportation providers know this, but you hear something every once in a while about someone being denied a ride by a cab driver or more recently ride sharing drivers. The one case was in the UK, where the laws on service dogs are similar.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/686230/muslim-taxi-driver-blind-guide-dog-refuse

 

[PVD]

Nothing is ever clear cut. Air Carrier Access Act has a broader definition, it includes some support animals. Foreign carriers can restrict to dog only, not US carriers. The ADA now recognizes miniature horses, but if it is not practical to carry them safely, they could still be refused. A small van or taxi might be in the right not carrying one.

 

[Dan O]

It wouldn't be much of an issue if so many people didn't buy "Service Animal" vests on the internet so they can bring their non service animal dogs, etc wherever they want to go. It's not too hard to spot a seeing eye dog but most of the "service animals" I see are lapdogs or small dogs. Some may actually be service dogs but I doubt they all are.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

It wouldn't be much of an issue if so many people didn't buy "Service Animal" vests on the internet so they can bring their non service animal dogs, etc wherever they want to go. It's not too hard to spot a seeing eye dog but most of the "service animals" I see are lapdogs or small dogs. Some may actually be service dogs but I doubt they all are.

Not only vests, but also sell ID cards, which is absurd, because real service dogs don't carry ID cards.

 

[BCL]

It wouldn't be much of an issue if so many people didn't buy "Service Animal" vests on the internet so they can bring their non service animal dogs, etc wherever they want to go. It's not too hard to spot a seeing eye dog but most of the "service animals" I see are lapdogs or small dogs. Some may actually be service dogs but I doubt they all are.

I've seen quite a few who are trained to help fetch items or even help put on clothes. However, the disability of the owner is usually pretty apparent. I met someone without any outward disability with a small service dog. She said she sometimes would get neurological symptoms where she blanked out temporarily, and the dog would guide her home. I'm not sure if that dog could do anything if she were traveling, but I believe it was trained to stay with her and keep her out of trouble.

 

[me_little_me]

It wouldn't be much of an issue if so many people didn't buy "Service Animal" vests on the internet so they can bring their non service animal dogs, etc wherever they want to go. It's not too hard to spot a seeing eye dog but most of the "service animals" I see are lapdogs or small dogs. Some may actually be service dogs but I doubt they all are.

Not only vests, but also sell ID cards, which is absurd, because real service dogs don't carry ID cards.

In some states they need them to vote! :giggle:

 

[tonys96]

I wonder why the OP has not gotten back into this conversation with some specifics about the animal in question..... :huh:

 

[crabby_appleton1950]

Is the service animal a dog? There is a federal interpretation that under the ADA that only a dog is considered a service animal.

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

Arizona law doesn't specify what kind of animal. Nevada law refers to a federal regulation, although the code says that it could be any animal. Nevada law also specifically mentions that miniature horses can be considered service animals. I thought that except for specific cases (such as parts of zoos), a legal service animal must be allowed.

The Southwest Chief schedule says the Kingman/Laughlin shuttle is operated by Commuter Services. Their phone number is on their website.

http://www.commuterservices.net/services.html

So can someone bring a miniature horse aboard Amtrak, as a service animal?

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

So can someone bring a miniature horse aboard Amtrak, as a service animal?

I can't think of a legitimate reason that Amtrak could refuse for a valid service horse. I don't think a horse can do stairs, but on a Superliner, the "H" room is on the lower level.

Remember, Amtrak can inquire about what task the horse is trained to do, and if such matches the disability needs of the passenger.

My disability is with math, and my miniature horse is trained to stump out tips amounts for me.

 

[PVD]

Well, at least the miniature horse is less likely to be fake (as a service animal). They are not inexpensive to acquire and care for.

 

[Hal]

It wouldn't be much of an issue if so many people didn't buy "Service Animal" vests on the internet so they can bring their non service animal dogs, etc wherever they want to go. It's not too hard to spot a seeing eye dog but most of the "service animals" I see are lapdogs or small dogs. Some may actually be service dogs but I doubt they all are.

I've seen quite a few who are trained to help fetch items or even help put on clothes. However, the disability of the owner is usually pretty apparent. I met someone without any outward disability with a small service dog. She said she sometimes would get neurological symptoms where she blanked out temporarily, and the dog would guide her home. I'm not sure if that dog could do anything if she were traveling, but I believe it was trained to stay with her and keep her out of trouble.

There are a lot of disabilities that are not apparent. One type of dog that is common can assist if a person has a seizure and another type of dog can predict a seizure.

 

[Hal]

Is the service animal a dog? There is a federal interpretation that under the ADA that only a dog is considered a service animal.

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

Arizona law doesn't specify what kind of animal. Nevada law refers to a federal regulation, although the code says that it could be any animal. Nevada law also specifically mentions that miniature horses can be considered service animals. I thought that except for specific cases (such as parts of zoos), a legal service animal must be allowed.

The Southwest Chief schedule says the Kingman/Laughlin shuttle is operated by Commuter Services. Their phone number is on their website.

http://www.commuterservices.net/services.html

So can someone bring a miniature horse aboard Amtrak, as a service animal?

Yes, they are on the possible list of service animals. My understanding from a year ago is that back then there was only one miniature horse service animal. And that it has been on Amtrak. An example of an animal that is not on the service animal list are cats.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

It wouldn't be much of an issue if so many people didn't buy "Service Animal" vests on the internet so they can bring their non service animal dogs, etc wherever they want to go. It's not too hard to spot a seeing eye dog but most of the "service animals" I see are lapdogs or small dogs. Some may actually be service dogs but I doubt they all are.

I've seen quite a few who are trained to help fetch items or even help put on clothes. However, the disability of the owner is usually pretty apparent. I met someone without any outward disability with a small service dog. She said she sometimes would get neurological symptoms where she blanked out temporarily, and the dog would guide her home. I'm not sure if that dog could do anything if she were traveling, but I believe it was trained to stay with her and keep her out of trouble.

There are a lot of disabilities that are not apparent. One type of dog that is common can assist if a person has a seizure and another type of dog can predict a seizure.

I have an online friend who has a a kneecap that pops out. The dogs she's been trying to train to be hearing dogs have quickly picked up on this and stand against her when they know her leg is going to go out on her.

And there are a lot of hearing dogs out there. And hearing loss/deafness is one of those invisible disabilities (though many Deaf do not consider themselves disabled and rightly so).

 

[AmtrakBlue]

During my mall walks this year, I've seen at east 3 times people with dogs in strollers. I do not think these were service dogs - how can the dog perform it's service if its in a stroller.

 

[BCL]

It's been mentioned here and on other forums.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,502529

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/65444-service-pony/

 

[BCL]

So can someone bring a miniature horse aboard Amtrak, as a service animal?

I can't think of a legitimate reason that Amtrak could refuse for a valid service horse. I don't think a horse can do stairs, but on a Superliner, the "H" room is on the lower level.

Remember, Amtrak can inquire about what task the horse is trained to do, and if such matches the disability needs of the passenger.

My disability is with math, and my miniature horse is trained to stump out tips amounts for me.

The basic rule is that there has to be a place for the service animal. If it's an insanely large animal that can't meet the requirement that the animal be under the seat or sitting in the space next to the seat, it has to be in an accessible space or a bedroom.

This was in the message from 2001:

10 GUIDE HORSES WHEN RESTING TAKE UP MORE ROOM THAN DOGS, AND

11 BECAUSE OF THIS REGULAR COACH SEATING AND STANDARD BEDROOMS DO

12 NOT HAVE ENOUGH SPACE FOR THEM. THEREFORE, GUIDE HORSES (AND

13 ALSO LARGE DOGS THAT WON'T FIT ON THE FLOOR UNDER A SEAT, OR

14 IN A STANDARD BEDROOM) ARE BOOKED IN MOBILITY IMPAIRED ACCESSIBLE

15 SPACE -- SEATING SPACE, OR SLEEPING ACCOMMODATION.

So the animal has to be reasonably sized if it's a regular coach seat. I don't imagine an Irish wolfhound is going to fit nicely in front of a regular coach seat.

 

[Dan O]

During my mall walks this year, I've seen at east 3 times people with dogs in strollers. I do not think these were service dogs - how can the dog perform it's service if its in a stroller.

Maybe it's playing the roll of a baby and will wake up it's owner in the middle of the night?

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

The basic rule is that there has to be a place for the service animal. If it's an insanely large animal that can't meet the requirement that the animal be under the seat or sitting in the space next to the seat, it has to be in an accessible space or a bedroom.

This was in the message from 2001:

10 GUIDE HORSES WHEN RESTING TAKE UP MORE ROOM THAN DOGS, AND

11 BECAUSE OF THIS REGULAR COACH SEATING AND STANDARD BEDROOMS DO

12 NOT HAVE ENOUGH SPACE FOR THEM. THEREFORE, GUIDE HORSES (AND

13 ALSO LARGE DOGS THAT WON'T FIT ON THE FLOOR UNDER A SEAT, OR

14 IN A STANDARD BEDROOM) ARE BOOKED IN MOBILITY IMPAIRED ACCESSIBLE

15 SPACE -- SEATING SPACE, OR SLEEPING ACCOMMODATION.

So the animal has to be reasonably sized if it's a regular coach seat. I don't imagine an Irish wolfhound is going to fit nicely in front of a regular coach seat.

I don't read any limits on the size of a service dog, and for a miniature service horse its height from 24 inches to 34 inches measured to the shoulders and generally weigh between 70 and 100 pounds, in the US Dept of Justice rules.

If Amtrak needs to physically remove seats in a coach to make room, then that's what they must legally do.

 

[BCL]

The basic rule is that there has to be a place for the service animal. If it's an insanely large animal that can't meet the requirement that the animal be under the seat or sitting in the space next to the seat, it has to be in an accessible space or a bedroom.

This was in the message from 2001:

10 GUIDE HORSES WHEN RESTING TAKE UP MORE ROOM THAN DOGS, AND

11 BECAUSE OF THIS REGULAR COACH SEATING AND STANDARD BEDROOMS DO

12 NOT HAVE ENOUGH SPACE FOR THEM. THEREFORE, GUIDE HORSES (AND

13 ALSO LARGE DOGS THAT WON'T FIT ON THE FLOOR UNDER A SEAT, OR

14 IN A STANDARD BEDROOM) ARE BOOKED IN MOBILITY IMPAIRED ACCESSIBLE

15 SPACE -- SEATING SPACE, OR SLEEPING ACCOMMODATION.

So the animal has to be reasonably sized if it's a regular coach seat. I don't imagine an Irish wolfhound is going to fit nicely in front of a regular coach seat.

I don't read any limits on the size of a service dog, and for a miniature service horse its height from 24 inches to 34 inches measured to the shoulders and generally weigh between 70 and 100 pounds, in the US Dept of Justice rules.

If Amtrak needs to physically remove seats in a coach to make room, then that's what they must legally do.

The operating word is "reasonable". This was from the Dept of Justice page on the revised ADA guidelines:

Entities covered by the ADA must modify their policies to permit miniature horses where reasonable. The regulations set out four assessment factors to assist entities in determining whether miniature horses can be accommodated in their facility. The assessment factors are (1) whether the miniature horse is housebroken; (2) whether the miniature horse is under the owner’s control; (3) whether the facility can accommodate the miniature horse’s type, size, and weight; and (4) whether the miniature horse’s presence will not compromise legitimate safety requirements necessary for safe operation of the facility.

There can't be any forcing of removal of seats, as that's not something practical to do on short notice. There are reasonable ways to accommodate a service animal that will not be considered isolation or segregation. If the animal can fit in front of a seat (like many service dogs) that's fine. If it can only be on the upper level in the aisle that's not good. If it can manage it's way upstairs, then maybe an end seat would work, as there's lots of legroom. There's got to be a certain standard of reasonableness.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

The operating word is "reasonable". This was from the Dept of Justice page on the revised ADA guidelines:

Entities covered by the ADA must modify their policies to permit miniature horses where reasonable. The regulations set out four assessment factors to assist entities in determining whether miniature horses can be accommodated in their facility. The assessment factors are (1) whether the miniature horse is housebroken; (2) whether the miniature horse is under the owner’s control; (3) whether the facility can accommodate the miniature horse’s type, size, and weight; and (4) whether the miniature horse’s presence will not compromise legitimate safety requirements necessary for safe operation of the facility.

There can't be any forcing of removal of seats, as that's not something practical to do on short notice. There are reasonable ways to accommodate a service animal that will not be considered isolation or segregation. If the animal can fit in front of a seat (like many service dogs) that's fine. If it can only be on the upper level in the aisle that's not good. If it can manage it's way upstairs, then maybe an end seat would work, as there's lots of legroom. There's got to be a certain standard of reasonableness.

To me, and to any objective person, it is reasonable for Amtrak to comply with the Justice Dept and accommodate a miniature horse, when the miniature horse meets those listed requirements.

I guess, I don't see six years (from 2010) as being "short notice", as you seem to feel. Amtrak had those six years to make what ever modifications are required. As I suggested, if they need to allocate floor space for a service animal, one way to do it, is to remove a seat or two.

This is similar to the need to create space to accommodate a wheel chair. Your reasoning is that someone in a wheel chair must be able to squeeze in, between the cushion of one seat and the back of the one in front of it, because they don't deserve any modifications.

BTW, a member of our family is in a wheel chair. When she accompanies us to baseball game, we simply call the stadium in the afternoon, and they remove three seats out on the suite's balcony, to make a space for the wheel chair. So, others can do it.