Sneaking a Shower

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Note, that this topic (diabetic thrown off train) was covered on this forum last year. Although people with medical problems should travel responsibly, there are times when no amount of planning can prevent something from happening.
I re-read that report, and I don't read in it anywhere, that this person was indeed suffering from any form of diabetic condition or any other medical condition that day. None at all.

His family, not himself, made a vague reference to the man possibly being diagnosed as having diabetes. There is nothing at all, that his man's diabetes (if he even really has such) is even serious enough to need medication or medical attention. Clearly, it wasn't even serious enough for him to have a medical ID bracelet.

Plus, we have no idea about how much he was liquor he consumed. I am sure that the conductor had a quick side chat with the lounge attendant about that, before making any decision.
Google "diabetic thrown off train" and different explanations pop up, some that seem to support that he had been recently diagnosed with diabetes (not enough time to adjust and get an medical id made). I don't know one way or the other who is correct but I do like one response to the situation: If Amtrak doesn't want to handle drunks, quit sousing the passengers with alcohol. The promotion last year (?) of cheap or free alcohol was a very dumb idea.
You have the wrong company to blame for last year's liquor promotion. It actually had nothing to do with Amtrak. It was a GrandLuxe promotion that allowed their guests, on their equipment, to use a coupon for drinks in their lounge. Amtrak just happened to be pulling their equipment. The promotion did not come from Amtrak, but they got all the blame.
 
Note, that this topic (diabetic thrown off train) was covered on this forum last year. Although people with medical problems should travel responsibly, there are times when no amount of planning can prevent something from happening.
I re-read that report, and I don't read in it anywhere, that this person was indeed suffering from any form of diabetic condition or any other medical condition that day. None at all.

His family, not himself, made a vague reference to the man possibly being diagnosed as having diabetes. There is nothing at all, that his man's diabetes (if he even really has such) is even serious enough to need medication or medical attention. Clearly, it wasn't even serious enough for him to have a medical ID bracelet.

Plus, we have no idea about how much he was liquor he consumed. I am sure that the conductor had a quick side chat with the lounge attendant about that, before making any decision.
Google "diabetic thrown off train" and different explanations pop up, some that seem to support that he had been recently diagnosed with diabetes (not enough time to adjust and get an medical id made). I don't know one way or the other who is correct but I do like one response to the situation: If Amtrak doesn't want to handle drunks, quit sousing the passengers with alcohol. The promotion last year (?) of cheap or free alcohol was a very dumb idea.
You have the wrong company to blame for last year's liquor promotion. It actually had nothing to do with Amtrak. It was a GrandLuxe promotion that allowed their guests, on their equipment, to use a coupon for drinks in their lounge. Amtrak just happened to be pulling their equipment. The promotion did not come from Amtrak, but they got all the blame.
Correct, that free liquor was not an Amtrak promotion. One only got free liquor by riding in the GrandLuxe portion of the train and one paid a hefty premium to ride in the GrandLuxe cars.

It is also important to note that the man "thrown" off the train wasn't actually kicked off the train in the middle of nowhere all by himself. After the train came to a halt, the conductor opened the door of the train and the man ran out on his own before the conductor could stop him. Additionally, the man did so in the full view of the cop(s) (not sure if it was one or two) that were there to escort him off the train. I've not seen the official report, but some reports say that the police did nothing. No effort was made to pursue the man at that time by the police.

In any event, they were just as much to blame, if not more so than Amtrak. And frankly the biggest blame goes to the man in the first place, regardless of what medical issues he may or may not have had and that includes possibly being drunk.

The news made it sound like the conductor just stopped the train at a crossing and kicked the man off with no one around. That isn't what happened, the man ran away in the full sight of the police and the conductor. And once he got off the train that was really the end of Amtrak's responsibility since he got off voluntarily, even if he was suffering from a medical condition. The conductor isn't an EMT or a doctor, he/she can't diagnose these things and he/she still has a responsibility to the other 200 to 300 people on the train also. He can't just start running after the guy or leaping out of the train to tackle him.
 
"And frankly the biggest blame goes to the man in the first place"

Have you been around many diabetics when their sugar levels are moving to the extremes?

Just curious.
 
Did the Grand Luxe pax get to move back and forth between cars and use any of the regular Amtrak facilities?
 
"And frankly the biggest blame goes to the man in the first place"
Have you been around many diabetics when their sugar levels are moving to the extremes?

Just curious.
Actually, yes, once. Not an experience that I'd care to repeat frankly, as it can get rather scary.

However, in this case I was referring to the fact that if we assume that what the family was telling the truth that he was newly diagnosed with the disease, I blame him for boarding a long distance train without taking the proper steps to manage his care. He boarded that train with no medicine, no medical ID bracelet, no doctor's note, or anything else to help identify his true problem or treat it.

I don't blame him for running away in the midst of a diabetic fit, if again that is what indeed happened. And I'm not suggesting that it isn't true. I simply don't know for sure one way or the other. I've never seen anything beyond the family’s claims that he was newly diagnosed.
 
Did the Grand Luxe pax get to move back and forth between cars and use any of the regular Amtrak facilities?
No, the passengers from the GrandLuxe trains that were hooked to the back of regularly scheduled Amtrak trains last fall/winter were not allowed to interact with the regular Amtrak passengers. In the case of the western trains, I don't even think that they had a Trans/Dorm between the Superliners and the single level GrandLuxe cars.

But the cars certainly did use the Amtrak stations, although only the major ones. One could not board at most of the Amtrak stops, just the end point cities and in a few cases a major city like say Orlando on the Silvers.
 
"And frankly the biggest blame goes to the man in the first place"
Have you been around many diabetics when their sugar levels are moving to the extremes?

Just curious.
Actually, yes, once. Not an experience that I'd care to repeat frankly, as it can get rather scary.

However, in this case I was referring to the fact that if we assume that what the family was telling the truth that he was newly diagnosed with the disease, I blame him for boarding a long distance train without taking the proper steps to manage his care. He boarded that train with no medicine, no medical ID bracelet, no doctor's note, or anything else to help identify his true problem or treat it.

I don't blame him for running away in the midst of a diabetic fit, if again that is what indeed happened. And I'm not suggesting that it isn't true. I simply don't know for sure one way or the other. I've never seen anything beyond the family’s claims that he was newly diagnosed.
Alan, A close relative suffers (and it is truly something you suffer with) type 1 (the auto immune disease) and I could see him doing something like what has been reported. I would think that he (the pax)should have been treated as someone who "lacked capacity" (contractual term) to make ANY decisions. An example of someone lacking capacity would be a minor entering a contract. An insane person probably lacks capacity.

Just so readers know, some people are considered "brittle" diabetics. Things in that field are changing fast but their blood sugar can go in either direction at the drop of a hat. As my relative explained, "I felt it, walked 10 feet and dropped." He's been diagnosed for about 30 years. He does wear id.

We would also have to consider whether Amtrak was suffering any delays and whether he had access to food. If he made it known that he needed something and met up with an obstinate employee that could have contributed to the problem. You're right, we know little about the situation.
 
..still curious.

Does the Amtrak conductor have control over the GrandLuxe?
 
..still curious.
Does the Amtrak conductor have control over the GrandLuxe?
Yes, with regard to the safe operating of the entire train and the GrandLuxe cars in particular. However if someone had a service issue with GrandLuxe, the Amtrak conductor wouldn't care at all.
 
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"And frankly the biggest blame goes to the man in the first place"
Have you been around many diabetics when their sugar levels are moving to the extremes?

Just curious.
Actually, yes, once. Not an experience that I'd care to repeat frankly, as it can get rather scary.

However, in this case I was referring to the fact that if we assume that what the family was telling the truth that he was newly diagnosed with the disease, I blame him for boarding a long distance train without taking the proper steps to manage his care. He boarded that train with no medicine, no medical ID bracelet, no doctor's note, or anything else to help identify his true problem or treat it.

I don't blame him for running away in the midst of a diabetic fit, if again that is what indeed happened. And I'm not suggesting that it isn't true. I simply don't know for sure one way or the other. I've never seen anything beyond the family’s claims that he was newly diagnosed.
Alan, A close relative suffers (and it is truly something you suffer with) type 1 (the auto immune disease) and I could see him doing something like what has been reported. I would think that he (the pax)should have been treated as someone who "lacked capacity" (contractual term) to make ANY decisions. An example of someone lacking capacity would be a minor entering a contract. An insane person probably lacks capacity.

Just so readers know, some people are considered "brittle" diabetics. Things in that field are changing fast but their blood sugar can go in either direction at the drop of a hat. As my relative explained, "I felt it, walked 10 feet and dropped." He's been diagnosed for about 30 years. He does wear id.

We would also have to consider whether Amtrak was suffering any delays and whether he had access to food. If he made it known that he needed something and met up with an obstinate employee that could have contributed to the problem. You're right, we know little about the situation.
IIRC since it was a year or so ago, that train was largely on time and there were no food issues, beyond perhaps his own making.

As for what to do, Amtrak personel aren't trained to deal with medical situations in general. I believe that they may have CPR training, and perhaps some very basic first aid, but beyond that the standard is to call for help and then stop the train at the nearest point to that help. Even if the nearest point is the middle of a grade crossing on a road in the middle of no where. The crew then turns over control of the individual to the appropriate authorities.

This is what the conductor was attempting to do. He had radioed for the police to remove this person. Doesn't much matter if it's a true drunk or someone suffering from low blood sugar, which is making him appear drunk. The train stops, the conductor opens the door, and the man bolts from the train right in front of the responding officer.

Why is the conductor getting all the blame, and I'm not directing this at you specifically guest? I'm directing this at the news, the family, and anyone else. The officer was right there, he saw the man run off too and did nothing! Why is he not getting some of the blame?

It's not like the conductor has handcuffs, which in the case of a diabetic suffering from insulin shock would then been considered cruel and unusual punishment if he had handcuffs and had used them. The conductor followed procedures. He had an unruly passenger for whatever reason. He made arrangements to have the person removed from the train, he stops the train at the appointed place, and before he can officially complete the transfer of the individual, the person in question runs away from both the conductor and the officer. Why is it his fault that the man was lost in the woods for three days? And if he was suffering from low blood sugar, how did he survive for three days without any food or treatment? Most diabetics would have lapsed into a coma and died by that point in time.
 
Neil_M said:
Several weeks?You might be happy being a stinking humming thing but what about the people around you?

Several weeks with washing yourself is just not normal.
Lets see here.

Normal: Adj.. 1) technical (of a line, ray, or other linear feature) intersecting a given line or surface at right angles. 2) Medicine (of a salt solution) containing the same salt concentration as the blood. 3) Geology denoting a fault or faulting in which a relative downward movement occurred in the strata situated on the upper side of the fault plane. 4) conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.
1) No, I'm not intersecting a given point at right angles. Except in a few choice cases in the kitchen cutting things, but thats not usual.

2) I'm not a solution containing the same salt concentration as blood.

3) No, I am not a geological fault in which a relative downward movement occured. Infact, I'm not in the past tense yet, thankfully.

4) Thank the lord, I do not conform to anyones standard but my own, and certainly not typical. If you know me well enough, though, I guess you can expect me to do the expected- of me, anyway.

So you're right, I'm not normal. I've never claimed to be normal. As for the circumstances where I would not shower for weeks at a time, I was either with the rough-house group of people I used to hang with on some ridiculous adventure, or isolated in my office working on something that held my interest.
 
Certainly, AMTRAK, or any other carrier, should never put anyone off without there being other available public transportation and facilities for the person. Nevertheless, in any real urgent case, having the police or other appropriate emergency personnel meet the train anywhere is the best option.

AMTRAK could offer shower access to coach passengers for half the accommodation extra fare. It would certainly have to be on their ticket, presented to the sleeping car attendant for admittance.
 
I've always advocated coin operated showers in coach. 1 Susan B per minute of hot water. Of course, then it would fail, you'd lose money, the crew wouldn't care...
 
"And frankly the biggest blame goes to the man in the first place"
Have you been around many diabetics when their sugar levels are moving to the extremes?

Just curious.
Actually, yes, once. Not an experience that I'd care to repeat frankly, as it can get rather scary.

However, in this case I was referring to the fact that if we assume that what the family was telling the truth that he was newly diagnosed with the disease, I blame him for boarding a long distance train without taking the proper steps to manage his care. He boarded that train with no medicine, no medical ID bracelet, no doctor's note, or anything else to help identify his true problem or treat it.

I don't blame him for running away in the midst of a diabetic fit, if again that is what indeed happened. And I'm not suggesting that it isn't true. I simply don't know for sure one way or the other. I've never seen anything beyond the family’s claims that he was newly diagnosed.
Alan, A close relative suffers (and it is truly something you suffer with) type 1 (the auto immune disease) and I could see him doing something like what has been reported. I would think that he (the pax)should have been treated as someone who "lacked capacity" (contractual term) to make ANY decisions. An example of someone lacking capacity would be a minor entering a contract. An insane person probably lacks capacity.

Just so readers know, some people are considered "brittle" diabetics. Things in that field are changing fast but their blood sugar can go in either direction at the drop of a hat. As my relative explained, "I felt it, walked 10 feet and dropped." He's been diagnosed for about 30 years. He does wear id.

We would also have to consider whether Amtrak was suffering any delays and whether he had access to food. If he made it known that he needed something and met up with an obstinate employee that could have contributed to the problem. You're right, we know little about the situation.
IIRC since it was a year or so ago, that train was largely on time and there were no food issues, beyond perhaps his own making.

As for what to do, Amtrak personel aren't trained to deal with medical situations in general. I believe that they may have CPR training, and perhaps some very basic first aid, but beyond that the standard is to call for help and then stop the train at the nearest point to that help. Even if the nearest point is the middle of a grade crossing on a road in the middle of no where. The crew then turns over control of the individual to the appropriate authorities.

This is what the conductor was attempting to do. He had radioed for the police to remove this person. Doesn't much matter if it's a true drunk or someone suffering from low blood sugar, which is making him appear drunk. The train stops, the conductor opens the door, and the man bolts from the train right in front of the responding officer.

Why is the conductor getting all the blame, and I'm not directing this at you specifically guest? I'm directing this at the news, the family, and anyone else. The officer was right there, he saw the man run off too and did nothing! Why is he not getting some of the blame?

It's not like the conductor has handcuffs, which in the case of a diabetic suffering from insulin shock would then been considered cruel and unusual punishment if he had handcuffs and had used them. The conductor followed procedures. He had an unruly passenger for whatever reason. He made arrangements to have the person removed from the train, he stops the train at the appointed place, and before he can officially complete the transfer of the individual, the person in question runs away from both the conductor and the officer. Why is it his fault that the man was lost in the woods for three days? And if he was suffering from low blood sugar, how did he survive for three days without any food or treatment? Most diabetics would have lapsed into a coma and died by that point in time.
Alan, it does look like there was some irresponsible reporting going on at the same time that took on a life of its own as diabetic support groups got wind of the story as originally reported. I've not seen it first hand but did see a secondhand references that Amtrak's Media Relations person, Marc M., released information saying the conductor was waiting on the platform with the indvidual when he bolted... and that previous to that he had been acting out (my words) on the train. Elsewhere it said that he had been diagnosed the day before the trip. Other rumors are that Amtrak perked up its training about the circumstances acceptable for "throwing a pax off".

From my experiences, the guy's actions were consistent with diabetes, whether his sugar levels were too high or too low. As we've discovered in my family, the body can hide some sugar that it draws on before the final straw (It's probably measured more in minutes rather than days.) My family member discovered this after a drop left him upside down in his vehicle and he aroused. One day of diagnosis is not adequate time to adjust to a lifetime of new habits. One story also said that the individual was to control it through diet and not meds. My family member's case is an insulin issue not an excess of diet. Again, just for clarity, type 1 is an autoimmune disease, type II is more of a metabolic and life style problem. And, if what I've read is correct, there are additional variations on these.

I wonder about the police response as well. ....As far as the handcuffs. Plastic hand restraints are available to flight crews. I wonder why they aren't available to the conductor?
 
I wonder about the police response as well. ....As far as the handcuffs. Plastic hand restraints are available to flight crews. I wonder why they aren't available to the conductor?
I don't know why they don't give them to a conductor, although perhaps it's simply because he can pretty much stop the train at any grade crossing to get help, whereas a plane can't just stop in a matter of minutes many times. However, unless the conductor had bound the man's feet, restraints probably wouldn't have changed the outcome of this story one bit. And had the conductor done so, bound his hands and feet, now we're back into the realm of cruel and unusual punishment. Basically a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't situation.
 
I can just imagine the Battle Royale in the court rooms when a lounge lizard sobered up and realized that he was in the drunk tank of Bum Diddle Podunk USA. No, I think stopping the train until the appropriate officials show up is the only way to handle unruly pax.
 
Do conductors have arrest powers or the authority to restrain people?
 
This topic seems to have expanded beyond sneaking a shower, soooooo...Just wondering.....Is smoking on Amtrak illegal (presumambly under federal law) or simply a violation of Amtrak rules and your ticket contract?
 
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This topic seems to have expanded beyond sneaking a shower, soooooo...Just wondering.....Is smoking on Amtrak illegal (presumambly under federal law) or simply a violation of Amtrak rules and your ticket contract?
It is a violation of the Amtrak policies and rules.
 
This topic seems to have expanded beyond sneaking a shower, soooooo...Just wondering.....Is smoking on Amtrak illegal (presumambly under federal law) or simply a violation of Amtrak rules and your ticket contract?
It is a violation of the Amtrak policies and rules.
And conductors can and will put people off the train for violating that policy. I've seen it done, or rather I've heard it being done. And I did see one guy get dropped off at a grade crossing for a free night in jail for being drunk and molesting the women on the train.
 
Do conductors have arrest powers or the authority to restrain people?

Short and sweet, basically if the psgr gets violent the psgr can be physically restrained. ZipTies work wonders for us!
 
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