St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

[NewRails]

Looks like TCMC is now available for booking in the reservation system starting 22 May 2024.

https://cdn2.imagearchive.com/amtraktrains/internal_data/attachments/34/34009-ea4da3bdf27d6ded594e86bc2d1db19c.data?response-expires=Wed, 08 May 2024 13:22:13 GMT&response-content-type=image/png&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=I3UPHPWOPY63ZMOGLZFM/20240501/nyc3/s3/aws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20240501T132213Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=604800&X-Amz-Signature=4539ae55365f642b8f71dcbc728ab7ce7bbbdcabfaee4487a7bfc394710ef17e

Well, actually inaugural is on 21st May.

Hey, WisARP has more knowledge on Borealis! https://w.p.me/pbWVI-LW
Rail supporters in Wisconsin, Minnesota and Illinois can learn how to get involved. WisARP has been proposing this service for over eight years and there's so much more to do!

 

[lordsigma]

Are they allowed to use the Siemens Midwest equipment on the Borealis ?

No - at this time Amtrak owned equipment only.

 

[Amtrak25]

There's no rumor that they scheduled an 8th frequency ghost train on CP to deadhead, which would also be very expensive, Chicago can barely put out service now (no 3rd Hiawatha train set), and Siemens equipment can't go north of the Milwaukee monolith. Somebody on Trainorders said no Cabbage-40 on the Borealis.

So I am going with my original theory way above - they are going to run VIA style "J" trains, even if they forgot and scheduled only 5 minutes in Milwaukee.

 

[Harmon Shay]

This is correct! I apologize if one of my posts late yesterday on this topic contradicted itself--I was tired and overexcited. The Great River Rail Commission (MN coordinating partner--long story) and others have made it very clear that there will be 4 coaches and one 'cafe' (club/dinette as Jis said) to begin with.

"Amtrak Borealis trains will consist of four Horizon class passenger cars with one cafe car and a locomotive. The Great River Rail Commission’s website will soon feature more information about the service, including amenities, ticket prices, destinations and more. " Source link here.

It sounds like this means they're going to have to subtract or add coaches in Milwaukee to accommodate all the people they'll have to carry, or they'll have to use the reservation system to limit the number of people the trains carry, or just tow an existing Hiawatha train set behind it between Chicago and Milwaukee. It shouldn't take that long to combine the two.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Current Hiawatha schedule -- two train sets.

View attachment 36610

We know that Borealis requires two train sets for a total four -- two Hiawatha + two Borealis.

The challenge with Borealis replacing 1 of 7 Hiawatha each way is that you end up with a Hiawatha train set in the wrong city.
Here's how things look if the Borealis trains are dedicated Borealis-only equipment (red bold font):

View attachment 36611

There's no equipment in Milwaukee to do the 1:05pm southbound. The green Hiawatha trainset is sitting idle in Chicago but you need it in Milwaukee. Two ways to solve things in this situation:

--Deadhead the green Hiawatha trainset behind the Borealis both ways. Essentially the green trainset would do what it does today prior to Borealis. It would be nice if the green trainset could instead run as an additional revenue frequency but we're not yet at the point where more CHI-MKE-CHI trains are allowed.

--Have a third Hiawatha trainset sit in MIlwaukee which only covers the two trips in white. Painfully wasteful.

I'd be pretty surprised (and a little sickened!) if a third Hiawatha set was acquired just to do a single existing round trip, so in this scenario I can't come up with any reasonable option but the Hiawatha set being pulled along behind Borealis.

----------------

Would it help if the Borealis trainsets were used on some additional Hiawatha runs? Not really -- you still have the same fundemental issue of no train in Milwaukee to run the 1:05pm southbound / 3:15pm northbound. By using Borealis on other Hiawatha runs the green Hiawatha set #2 could be mostly replaced by Borealis, only needed for that mid-day gap and idle the rest of the day, four trainsets total. But in this scenario there's an issue where the Borealis trainset overnights in Milwaukee but needs to originate Chicago the next morning. And again, you may think "but couldn't that mostly idle green Hiawatha set be used so Borealis doesn't overnight the "wrong" city?" But once again we're in the position where the idle green Hiawatha set isn't where you need it to be to fill in and let the Borealis train set terminate in Chicago each night.

View attachment 36613

In theory if the only difference for the Borealis was a cafe car then it would not matter which train sets spent the night where. The cafe car would be ditched in Chicago in the evening before the train headed back to MKE, and in the morning it would be added to whicever train set was positioned for the 11:05am northbound for the trip back to MSP. But in that scenario you'd truly be rotating all the Hiawahta equipment so that means somtimes Venture coaches to MSP plus potential equiment issue with Hiawatha being push-pull and Boralis not. And again that's only if all equipment was equal, no variation, no state ownership or pool participation, so that makes this idea unrealisitc as well.

-------

So across all these possible scenarios by far the most likely seems that a Hiawatha set will be repositioned behind the Borealis each direction, essentially mimicking the revenue trips it currently runs but Borealis is replacing. That two dedicated Borealis train sets (as expected) and the two existing Hiawatha sets cover the six remaining round trips.

In your last schedule table, if you alter the 6:10 AM trip from Chicago to be the green Hiawatha set rather than the blue Borealis set, that would solve most of the issues. There would then be two Hiawatha sets alternating each night between Chicago and Milwaukee and two Borealis sets alternating each night between St. Paul and Milwaukee. That would allow 5/6 daily Hiawatha trips to be served by Hiawatha captive equipment with only the 8:05 AM from Milwaukee and 8:05 PM from Chicago served by the Borealis sets.

 

[west point]

I have a real worry that Amtrak will sell out the trains MKE and south eliminating passengers north of MKE. If that happens then loads would be less and cause more state funds needed. The only way to prevent that IMO is to connect the Hiawatha train set to the Borealis set when loads are over booked. Drop at MKE and add the other set at MKE for southbound. Now how the two sets need to be connected not sure. If HEP can be separate for 2 sets the connections can be separated and connected fairly quickly. Other wise not so quick.

 

[moselman66]

In your last schedule table, if you alter the 6:10 AM trip from Chicago to be the green Hiawatha set rather than the blue Borealis set, that would solve most of the issues. There would then be two Hiawatha sets alternating each night between Chicago and Milwaukee and two Borealis sets alternating each night between St. Paul and Milwaukee. That would allow 5/6 daily Hiawatha trips to be served by Hiawatha captive equipment with only the 8:05 AM from Milwaukee and 8:05 PM from Chicago served by the Borealis sets.

That seems to work! Had not thought about having the Borealis equipment overnight in MIlwaukee -- that's what I get for trying to solve this puzzle while at work and not focusing more on it.

Each night a Hiawatha set terms in Chicago and Milwaukee has both a Hiawatha and a Boreais, and the next morning that's where they originate without any need for deadheading. When Borealis equipment needs work which can't be done overnight in MKE or MSP the equipment swaps out when it's next in Chicago.

Even days of the week:

Odd days of the week:

 

[OmahaRoad]

FYI for those who haven't seen already, the RPA & volunteers have already put together a PDF schedule for the Borealis; it shows the Builder and Borealis. https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/20928/borealis.pdf

 

[diesteldorf]

IMHO, the fares posted here encourage people to use the Empire Builder. A roomette is not that much more than BC. At those price points, I would take a roomette over BC every time. The Empire Builder coach seats should be sold as BC seats between Chicago and Milwaukee. Those seats are way better than any of the seats on the Borealis.

Hey Steve,

Completely agree regarding the EB equipment compared to BC. There were times when the Hiawatha got delayed/canceled and those passengers were routed on the Builder.

One of the conductors laughed when he told me that some of those passengers couldn't believe what they had been missing.

However, as someone still working, I am looking forward to Borealis. The timetable just works better. I can leave later and arrive home sooner on 1333/1340.

Hope to see you soon....Next time we go to Lou Mitchell's I'm buying.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

When the Hoosier State existed, it piggybacked onto the Cardinal one day a week in one or both direction, otherwise it made no sense either. I forgot how and when.

Seems to me this is just a one time deadhead.

If there are chronic and consistent sell-outs between Chicago and Milwaukee, maybe it's time to really fly between them and get Metra to extend all the way.

 

[west point]

For passengers MSP and south not checking baggage if Builder #8 is more than 4 hours late the Borealis will supply a few connections to the east on 30, 48. &59.
Again for passengers without baggage connections to stations up to MSP may get to those stations earlier from 30, 48, 51

 

[John Bredin]

As to concerns about Hiawatha (CHI-MKE) passengers displacing Borealis (beyond MKE) passengers or vice versa, WisDOT & IDOT have planned for some time now to expand the Hiawatha to 10 round-trips.

Money was appropriated for projects to increase capacity in Illinois but local NIMBYs torpedoed those projects. My understanding is (1) capacity improvements in Wisconsin (well beyond the reach of the Glenview grumps) will still make it possible, and (2) a conscious decision was made to **not** wait for those projects' completion to begin the second St. Paul service.