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Mr. skeptic here. All these food items are great but if Amtrak added them the word would get out and maybe overwhelm the current 4 horizon coaches.. What is worse the local CHI- MKE passengers would try to ride this train. We have not heard any resolution of how CHI <> MKE passengers are not allowed to fill up train preventing bookings from north of MKE??
I don't see a problem here - - - - -
Amtrak should not worry about filling the capacity of the Borealis train - - -
If there is a seat open between the points the customer travels - seat sold.
If not customer takes another train or another earlier or next day train.
If the train is sold out between CHI to MKE so be it.
Having a CAFE car is a bonus for customers usually traveling on the Hiawathas.
YES there will be some times i.e. 2 political conventions and maybe some sporting events
where the entire train may be booked to capacity - - - not Amtraks problem unless oversold.
 
There is a big problem there and it is replicated across NYS state every single day.

A booked Borealis may run at best half full north of Milwaukee, which is true on Niagara Falls trains and the Pittsfield train north of Abany. There may be just 80 people on the train to Pittsfield with 300 seats, yet booked solid because it is full south Albany.

People are not going another day - they are going to drive.

Then Wisconsin and Minnesota will say why are we subsidizing a train that is at best half empty.

Proper seat management would not have Hiawatha passengers book the entire train squeezing out everyone else, but it does not look like they have that, and passengers may well choose this train over the other Hiwathas because it has a cafe car.

The Lincoln Corrior and Texas Eagle get around that by having a St Louis cut coach.

Amtrak won't worry because Amtrak isn't paying for it and they are fine running fixed train sets.
 
A seat being filled to MLK doesn't prevent it being sold north of MLK, or am I not understanding this? And no brats is a crime, I'd like pork fritters too but maybe the're waving that for an Iowa train?
 
Wisconsin DOT has experience monitoring load factors on the trains they pay for. In April 2024, the DOT Rail Manager told WisARP that he regularly gets detailed (per-train, daily) ridership data from Amtrak.

Wisconsin DOT also has well-exercised the skill of getting Amtrak to increase consist size as patterns of full trains emerge. Not easy for a variety of good reasons, but has been done several times. Most recently a few months ago.
 
One solution may be to price the Borealis higher for Chicago/Milwaukee local travel than the Hiawatha's, unless there are a lot of unsold seats...

I hope they do that.

I would just couple the Borealis and the Hiawatha together south of Milwaukee, leave the current Hiawtha equipment cycles alone, like VIA Rail does at Brockville in 10 minutes. Load each half from the north and south concourses at CUS. Borealis is receive only northbound / discharge only southbound between Chciago and Milwaukee. But they won't do that.
 
Local CHI-MKE-CHI passengers tend to book very late because it's something of a commuter service with tons of same-day return trips. You may know you're heading to see a client next Thursday but there's no rush to buy your ticket in advance in case things change, and you might well not buy your return until it's clear which train you can catch back home. That's probably the opposite of most Borealis traffic headed to/from MSP or intermediate points -- those are far more likely to be firmly-planned trips which are booked at least a few days ahead, often substantially farther out. If Borealis starts selling out it will be the local CHI-MKE-CHI passengers shut out far more than the Borealis ones.

The Hiawathas only started using variable pricing a handful of months ago -- generally the lower-demand trains are $19 or $21 depending on how far you book, more in-demand trains and close-in bookings $24 or $26, and then fares into the low $30's for high demand/heavily booked ones. The Borealis trips beteween CHI-MKE / MKE-CHI aren't generally considered peak but there aren't many days with less than $24 fares between CHI and MKE unless you look many months out, and that will help push price-sensitive travelers onto another train two hours earlier or later.

Obviously this is all quite new and we'll see if trains are selling out between MKE-CHI/CHI-MKE and if so perhaps other actions will be taken. But I do think if trains sell out it will be the local Hiawatha users who are most likely to be impacted.
 
I hope they do that.

I would just couple the Borealis and the Hiawatha together south of Milwaukee, leave the current Hiawtha equipment cycles alone, like VIA Rail does at Brockville in 10 minutes. Load each half from the north and south concourses at CUS. Borealis is receive only northbound / discharge only southbound between Chciago and Milwaukee. But they won't do that.
That has been my thought as well. The Borealis equipment is separate anyway. The present turns of MKE <> CHI cannot be altered anyway. The slow part will be coupling the shorter train to the CHI train at MKE. A quick brake check as no moving locos around as happens at Spokane and Albany. Outbound just split at MKE as brake check already done at CHI.

Now since do not know platform lengths CHI <> MKE some of those stations might require a double stop.
 
That has been my thought as well. The Borealis equipment is separate anyway. The present turns of MKE <> CHI cannot be altered anyway. The slow part will be coupling the shorter train to the CHI train at MKE. A quick brake check as no moving locos around as happens at Spokane and Albany. Outbound just split at MKE as brake check already done at CHI.

Now since do not know platform lengths CHI <> MKE some of those stations might require a double stop.
At Chicago and St. Paul the entire length of either the EB or the B can be handled with ease.
Some of the stops in Wisconsin i.e. LaCrosse are only suitable for two cars without double stop - - -
Most of the other Wisconsin stations are for the most part the same -
Milwaukee I believe can service the entire length of the Hiawatha and a good portion of the EB
I have rode private cars into Milwaukee and had to walk about half city block to reach the station platform
The MKA Milwaukee airport stop maybe limited to a couple three cars -

In order to facilitate the optimum operation - the Conductor may designate certain cars for specific stations

As for switching out locos and cars from the Hiawatha/Borealis - I doubt that this will happen in order to make
the schedule of the Borealis with two extra stops faster than the EB and without double stops !
 
Hey Guys
I have a question about the new Borealis train.
I am planning a train/Bicycle trip in 2 months. I plan to ride the train to Columbus WI and ride my bike home. The timing of the Borealis train is better for me then the Empire Builder. Can anyone tell me if the Borealis is able to take bicycles?
(The ticketing system has no way to buy a bike ticket.)
 
Too early to comment - except call Amtrak for answer

If there is a baggage car it should be possible to check your bike ?

Nothing in print about bikes on the B train - - -

Check baggage BICYCLE policy EB train:

Bringing Your Bicycle

Carry-On/Trainside: Bicycles and folding scooters up to 50 lbs. Standard bicycle sizes apply. Maximum tire width: 2"
Checked: Bicycles up to 50 lbs. and 70" x 41" x 8.5" and non-folding scooters

Carry-On Bicycle Service​



Standard full-size bicycles may be carried onboard and stored within the body of the car. On short-distance routes in the Northeast, passengers must remove the front wheel before storing their bike. Fee varies by route. Beginning January 1, 2024, lithium-ion powered foldable scooters and e-bikes are also accepted as carry-on items.


Specially Designated Spaces Only​




Bicycles must be stored in the designated racks/areas inside Coach passenger cars. On trains with unreserved carry-on bicycle service, racks are available on a first-come, first-serve basis. When the racks are full, bikes will no longer be accepted onboard. Scooters can be stored wherever foldable bikes are permitted.


Loading and Securing Your Bike​




Passengers must be able to fully handle their bicycle or scooter in order to carry it on the train and stow it in the designated area or rack. Passengers are responsible for supplying their own cords and locking devices into their most compact position prior to boarding. All large seat/saddlebags, handlebar bags, baskets and panniers must be removed from your vehicle, consolidated and either checked or carried with you onto the train.


Exceptions on California Routes​




San Joaquins and Capitol Corridor routes will accept vehicles with a 2.5" maximum tire width; the Pacific Surfliner will accept a 4" maximum.
Non-folding scooters can only be stored in designated train cars with a bike logo and must be secured parallel or adjacent to the bike racks. They cannot block any aisles or walkways, impede passenger movement or present a safety hazard. If a non-folding scooter cannot meet these conditions it will need to be checked in a baggage car.


Liability​




Amtrak disclaims liability for loss of or damage to bicycles carried onboard and stored in bike racks or any other recreational vehicle brought onboard.


Folding Bikes Brought Aboard as Carry-On Baggage​




Folding bicycles smaller than 34" x 15" x 48" (860 x 380 x 1120 mm) and scooters under 50 lbs. are allowed onboard all trains in lieu of a piece of carry-on baggage.
Only certain passenger cars can accommodate folding bicycles as carry-on baggage, otherwise they must be checked.
Only true folding bicycles (bicycles specifically designed to fold up into a compact assembly) are acceptable. Generally, these bikes have frame latches allowing the frame to be collapsed, and small wheels. Regular bikes of any size, with or without wheels, are not considered folding bikes, and may not be stored as folding bikes aboard trains.
You must fold down your folding bicycle or scooter before boarding the train. You may store the bike only in luggage storage areas at the end of the car (on the lower level of Superliner trains). Folding bikes cannot be stored in overhead racks. Scooters can be stored wherever foldable bikes are permitted, under the seat or between the passenger's legs. Non-folding scooters must be checked.


Trainside Checked Bicycle Service​




Standard full-size bicycles may be transported in bicycle racks located in the baggage car. Passengers are not allowed in baggage cars; Amtrak personnel will store and secure your bike in the bike racks. Before handing your bicycle to an Amtrak crew member, please remove any large seat/saddlebags, handlebar bags or panniers. These items must be consolidated and either checked or carried with you onto the train. This service is only available at select stations.


Boxed Bicycles in Checked Baggage​




Bicycles may be checked on Amtrak between all cities where checked baggage is offered. Not all trains or locations are equipped to handle checked baggage. Find your station(s) to see if this service is available.
Bicycles/bicycle trailers may be checked in a bicycle container for $10, in lieu of a piece of baggage. Bicycle boxes are sold at most staffed locations for $15 per box. Customers may supply their own bicycle container.
Recumbent, tandem and special bicycles over the standard bicycle dimensions and will not fit in a standard bicycle box are prohibited. Motorized bicycles are prohibited.
The fee for checking a bike as baggage is $10.00. This is subject to change without notice.
  • Check your bicycle at the station at least an hour before departure.
  • Bicycles/bicycle trailers may be checked in a bicycle container for $10.00, in lieu of a piece of baggage. Bicycle boxes are sold at most staffed locations for $15.00 per box.
  • Bicycles must be partially disassembled in order to fit in an Amtrak bicycle box. Loosen and turn the handlebars sideways, and remove the pedals. Amtrak does not supply tools for disassembling.
  • It may be helpful to disassemble and reassemble your bike before your trip to avoid any surprises. Some parts, especially pedals, may be especially difficult to remove.
  • Attach your name and address to the box.



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According to recent chat with a Wisconsin DOT employee: No baggage car in the initial consists. No bicycle spaces in the initial Horizon coaches.

My own impression is that the DOT folks are happy to get a fairly bare-bones starter service running after nine years of effort. They clearly would have preferred more services (like bike spaces), and have not given up on adding them. But the bigger hurdle over the next couple years will be getting all three state legislatures to keep funding their shares of the subsidy reliably (MN 35%, WI 35%, IL 30%). An antagonistic legislator could --done right-- cause the new service to evaporate.
 
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Hey Guys
I have a question about the new Borealis train.
I am planning a train/Bicycle trip in 2 months. I plan to ride the train to Columbus WI and ride my bike home. The timing of the Borealis train is better for me then the Empire Builder. Can anyone tell me if the Borealis is able to take bicycles?
(The ticketing system has no way to buy a bike ticket.)
No, as far as anyone knows prior to the first train on Tuesday, unless there's magical bicycle space that emerges, the Borealis won't be able to take bikes to begin with. The Horizon cars don't have places to put bikes, and the Borealis isn't running with a baggage car or anything like that. Come to think of it, I now remember learning on social media from someone who emailed with WisDOT officials about bikes on board, and yes, 100% on the Borealis not having space/places for bikes. State staff had hoped for different cars for this service that could take some bikes, but the Horizons were all that Amtrak had available, and the focus was on getting this service off the ground faster after a decade or so of discussion and planning (rather than waiting for more/better equipment options).

If the dam don't break and the creek don't rise, as they say, in the future, a successful Borealis will be extremely likely to use the Siemens Venture cars (3 bikes/car apparently fit, in racks), but that's a ways off. If the Borealis was successful enough to bump up to 5 coaches from the current 4, then that'd be 15 bikes per trip, which is pretty darn good. Even 12 spaces with 4 passenger coaches would be great.
 
No, as far as anyone knows prior to the first train on Tuesday, unless there's magical bicycle space that emerges, the Borealis won't be able to take bikes to begin with. The Horizon cars don't have places to put bikes, and the Borealis isn't running with a baggage car or anything like that. Come to think of it, I now remember learning on social media from someone who emailed with WisDOT officials about bikes on board, and yes, 100% on the Borealis not having space/places for bikes. State staff had hoped for different cars for this service that could take some bikes, but the Horizons were all that Amtrak had available, and the focus was on getting this service off the ground faster after a decade or so of discussion and planning (rather than waiting for more/better equipment options).

If the dam don't break and the creek don't rise, as they say, in the future, a successful Borealis will be extremely likely to use the Siemens Venture cars (3 bikes/car apparently fit, in racks), but that's a ways off. If the Borealis was successful enough to bump up to 5 coaches from the current 4, then that'd be 15 bikes per trip, which is pretty darn good. Even 12 spaces with 4 passenger coaches would be great.

Thanks OmahaRoad and user535733!!!!!
  • I am in Illinois, as you said, we are using the Siemiens Venture cars on the Illinois service now. As a result, I have become spoiled.
  • I shall take the Empire Builder (EB), a few hours later, for my trip. With the EB they will put my bike in the baggage car.
  • One last comment for any bicycle tourist reading this... Wisconsin is a fantastic state to travel by bicycle. Consider a visit!!!!
 
According to recent chat with a Wisconsin DOT employee: No baggage car in the initial consists. No bicycle spaces in the initial Horizon coaches.
I rode Horizons on the Illinois Zephyr and Missouri service for many years (until replaced by Ventures). Just about every ride, I purchased a bike ticket. You never knew exactly where bikes would go, but they were always accommodated.

This sounds like a case of bicycle derangement syndrome on the part of Wisconsin and Minnesota, or whoever is funding the train.
 
I rode Horizons on the Illinois Zephyr and Missouri service for many years (until replaced by Ventures). Just about every ride, I purchased a bike ticket. You never knew exactly where bikes would go, but they were always accommodated.

This sounds like a case of bicycle derangement syndrome on the part of Wisconsin and Minnesota, or whoever is funding the train.
Bicycle Derangement Syndrome!!!
(I think I might have had a case of that in collage.)
 
This service starts in only a few days! And as such, Amtrak has posted the cafe car menu on their website. They promised "regional food/beverage items," and it's mostly a letdown, unless you care about alcohol the most...which, given the hard-drinking reputation of WI and honestly MN as well (can't speak to IL, ha), may be fitting?! 😆

In all seriousness, here are the only things that seem to be "regional:" Surly and Leinenkugel's beer (MN and WI), a brandy old fashioned (classic WI drink), a bloody mary (maybe regional? not seen on other trains) and Caribou cold brew coffee (MN coffee company). One of the breakfast items is a donut hole, which is generally Midwestern and isn't something I've seen on other cafe menus. Other than that, nothing else "regional", just 3 seemingly random differences from the standard NE cafe menu: Tomato soup, chocolate milk as a second milk option, and Heineken as a beer option.
What, no "Chicago handshake?" (Old Style and a shot of Malort)


There's a blueberry muffin which isn't specific to this service. but which is the state muffin of MN. Too bad Amtrak can't source from non-commercial bakeries (I assume). My own personal bias is that they should have St. Paul's own Pearson's Salted Nut Rolls, Nut Goodies, or Mint Patties as candy options, ha! Or Angie's Boom Chicka Pop for popcorn, which was founded in MN and I believe still produced there, or Old Dutch Chips (classic MN based & made chip/snacks company) for the chip option. Dot's Pretzels are originally from North Dakota but are hugely popular in MN (and are now national). I'm sure WI has a lot of similar in-state options. I mean, having a bratwurst of some type would be well-suited for both MN and WI too, but you'd have to find a commercial one that would be good after a microwave heatup.

Chicago's Garrett Popcorn

I also predict some level of (understandable) dissatisfaction among vegetarians, vegans, and those who desire fresher, lighter options. I am guessing they'll add at least some of their Amtrak salad or sandwich option eventually? There are no fresh bowls or salads (asian noodle bowl, greek salad) at all, yogurt, or simple sandwiches like the turkey and cheddar found on northeastern trains. I've had a couple of those and they were both pretty decent. The vegan BBQ burger and I suppose the tomato soup are the only clear veggie/vegan hot options (cup of noodles probably not veggie broth?). Midwesterners may be stereotyped as "meat and potatoes" people, but the demographics of many who plan to and will ride this train will tilt younger, more health-oriented, more transplants to the Midwest, more diverse, and with more dietary restrictions than the upper Midwest as a whole.

And both Chicago and the Twin Cities have excellent local vegan restaurants. People travel to both places, specifically, to experience such.
 
Amtrak #7(19) left Chicago today with the consist for the first eastbound Borealis on the end to be dropped off at the Twin Cities to be in position. This combo train was caught by RailfannerGuy13 at Golf, Illinois.



kschmidt626 also filmed this Empire Builder at Milwaukee.

 
The factual bit about Wisconsin Old Fashions is that they are made with Brandy... although Bourbon and sour mix with olives
isn't bad.
I prefer a Brandy Old Fashioned Sweet to Sour. I wonder if Amtrak will offer both.

There is a big problem there and it is replicated across NYS state every single day.

A booked Borealis may run at best half full north of Milwaukee, which is true on Niagara Falls trains and the Pittsfield train north of Abany. There may be just 80 people on the train to Pittsfield with 300 seats, yet booked solid because it is full south Albany.

People are not going another day - they are going to drive.

Then Wisconsin and Minnesota will say why are we subsidizing a train that is at best half empty.

Proper seat management would not have Hiawatha passengers book the entire train squeezing out everyone else, but it does not look like they have that, and passengers may well choose this train over the other Hiwathas because it has a cafe car.

The Lincoln Corrior and Texas Eagle get around that by having a St Louis cut coach.

Amtrak won't worry because Amtrak isn't paying for it and they are fine running fixed train sets.
This reminds me of gentleman that used to do the Trails and Rails program during the summer months of the Empire Builder and is also a member of AU.
He was from the Milwaukee area but would often book Chicago to Columbus, WI, paying a few bucks more, for the luxury of riding the EB.

I don't believe he was ever hassled for getting off early.
 
I really don’t think the Milwaukee predicament is much of an issue. It’s almost impossible to totally fill a train the whole length of the route. If it becomes concerning to the states involved, they will employ the same sort of fare management that Amtrak employs for the LD trains that sell space on the on the NEC, pay to add cars, or take one of many cheaper, less time consuming, actions possible . Cutting cars on a corridor train is, I think, total overkill. Next commuter trains will be cutting cars.
 
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