Superliner III

[Tony]

Here is my wish list. Some of them are repeats of points other made (just consider such an extra vote in favor).

• A small lounge in the sleeper. Either upstairs, possibly with the curved panorama windows, in the center sharing the stairs area. Or downstairs like in (some) transitional sleepers. A place to socialize and a chance to look out both sides.
  
• Toilet and sink in the roomettes, like the Viewliners. Sorry folks, but I have seen just how bad the 'public" toilets on LD trains can get. Having your own, makes you responsible for keeping it clean (or you and only you have to live with your own mess). Of course, the bedrooms would still be unique with having a shower too.
  
• Roomettes redesigned so they have the side hall, like the current bedrooms, instead of the center hall. I think one could have a slightly larger roomette that way. Something like the small rooms offered by the defunct GrandLuxe cars.
  
• Working individual HVAC control.
  

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

A fantasy design I have always envisioned for a future generation Superliner is a round tail observation car with a Milwaukee Skytop Lounge type window arrangement and the upper level forming a mezzanine type terrace lounge with some kind of stairway down to the lower level lounge area.. That would give an amazing Lounge for Sleeper pax. However, I imagine the FRA would have kittens over that much glass and modern train ops don't lend too well to a dedicated tail car that would create switching and turn around hassles.

 

[GG-1]

slightly wider bathroom, deeper matresses in the bunks, the rooms expanded but only 6" wider so that you can leave the room more easily (when the lower bunk is down), satellite TV, wifi internet access, and and

Aloha

Where do you suggest this foot of car with come from. The Aisle is narrow enough now.

 

[sunchaser]

slightly wider bathroom, deeper matresses in the bunks, the rooms expanded but only 6" wider so that you can leave the room more easily (when the lower bunk is down), satellite TV, wifi internet access, and and

Aloha

Where do you suggest this foot of car with come from. The Aisle is narrow enough now.

I think he meant changing the 6'6" x 7'6" dimensions to 7' x 7' 6". Not across the width of the car but add 6 inches to the length of the bedroom.

 

[The Metropolitan]

Definitely not Parlors in my book. I'd much rather see the resources go into buying equipment that will enable Amtrak to equip new routes and attract greater ridership than to be supplementing existing ones with non revenue space that will simply make the product more enjoyable for some.

Besides, someone would have to pay for the costs involved with operating the non revenue space. Factor in the cost of the attendant, the fuel usage to haul the car, and the maintenance costs involved for what is basically a non-revenue car and you're quite likely easily looking at $2500 of added expense on a 48 hour trip. Divided by an average occupancy of 40 rooms onboard the train, we're talking over a $60 jump in all sleeper prices for such a trip.

 

[Kramerica]

Several routes running superliners justify these two car types. The first car is an all-bedroom first-class lounge car. It would run on the SWC, CZ, GSL (Nee TE), EB, and CL. The upper level would be all bedrooms and the lower level would be a comfortable bar/lounge set up for first class passengers. 35 cars would be required to meet the need, I think.
The second one is a sort of couchette car, if you will. It is a Superliner sleeper, but the upstairs bathroom, and the luggage rack (will be moved over to displace a pair of bathrooms) become roomettes, as do the bedrooms. The result is 28 roomettes in the car. The H-room becomes 2 bathrooms (so the car retains the original number of bathrooms). The rooms can be reserved in total, or can be shared with a stranger. They do not include meals, and come at a lower price. 45 such cars will be needed.

1) 35 Deluxe Sleeper Lounges,

2) 45 Slumbercoaches.

I LOVE those two car ideas. You'll be better serving both the high end and low end of the sleeper spectrum. Amtrak really needs to meet the needs of passengers who simply want a horizontal place to sleep. They don't care about meals or privacy. I've traveled both coach and roomette, and the only real issue I had with coach (and it was a big issue) was sleeping comfort level. I think a reasonable price point is $30-$50 per person per night for a horizontal sleeping position. Sure, having privacy and getting "free" meals was pretty nice in the roomette, but I'd have been just as happy without those things at a lower price point.

Also, it would be nice if there were designated places to smoke on the train-I know most of you aren't fond of this idea-I'm not sure where would be the best place though. I know it should NOT be downstairs ANYWHERE-smoke rises. There are certainly ways to prevent smoke seepage into other areas.

The general movement in the US is to ban smoking in public areas. I don't see any reason to reverse that trend on Amtrak.

 

[railiner]

Parlor cars have been historically first class revenue chair cars used on shorter routes, or longer routes not involving an overnight operation.

Non revenue space on long distance trains should be referred to as lounge cars, or first class lounge cars, if intended for that use.

The only cars that could offer a reasonable accommodation for smokers would be those neat bilevels operating on the Alaska RR that have a small open-air observation section.

 

[DET63]

If you can find the stairs to the penthouse suite on selected Superliner sleepers, you can go up there to take a puff.

 

[AlanB]

Toilet and sink in the roomettes, like the Viewliners. Sorry folks, but I have seen just how bad the 'public" toilets on LD trains can get. Having your own, makes you responsible for keeping it clean (or you and only you have to live with your own mess). Of course, the bedrooms would still be unique with having a shower too.

That won't happen, sorry. In fact the toilets have been removed from the new Viewliners that Amtrak is looking to order. So there will be no chance that they put them back in for a new order of Superliner III's.

 

[AlanB]

Considering what these cars are going to cost, there should be as much flexibility in the design as possible. Possibly there could be only two basic car types: the diner and a design that is adaptable for all other uses. Modular design would be used more than ever before, and cars could be changed when they are in the shop for periodic major work with subtraction and addition of modules throughout the car's length.

I suspect that any new Superliner III's will follow the Viewliner's example and go modular. The current Viewliners, as well as those Amtrak wants to order are all modular. Slide the room it, bolt it down, hook up power and water; repeat.

2. Have two doors in each side somewhat like the California car design. One would be standard, the other wide for handicap entrance to the lower level. Both would have stairs to the upper deck for flexibility of use. The handicap passengers have to be located on the lower level near a door because coach aisles are not wide enough to pass a standard wheelchair, and passage between cars would be hazardous because of the swaying of the cars in any case.

Such a design would hurt car capacity considerably, especially in the case of a sleeper. You'd probably end up with half the number of rooms you currently have with two sets of doors and two staircases. A commuter op needs more points of egress as you have to move people in and out far more quickly. That's not true for a long distance train.

4. Among the flexibile car designs would be a combination coach-sleeper, coach-intermediate, or intermediate-sleeper. By intermediate, I mean one of the many ideas proposed that would be intermediate in price between coach and sleeper. Here again, the modular concept would allow modules to be removed and added to individual cars when they are shopped to vary the mix according to the needs of the particular car or train in order to improve the load factor.

While modular designs are nice and offer many advantages, it's also not that simple of a matter to just roll the car into the shop and start swapping modules. One doesn't want to get into changing the layout of the car on even a semi-regular basis. It's simply not cost effective.

 

[AlanB]

Sleepers, sleepers, sleepers. That is what they need both Bi and single level fleets. All LD trains frequently sellout the sleepers and potential customers are turned away. These are the prime real estate cars that can get back much more revenue than coaches. EB could use a third Seattle and second Portand sleeper. The SWC and CZ could both probably take a third sleeper and the TE is often forced to use rooms in the Crew Dorm which also indicate a demand. On the single level side the LSL seems to sell out its NYP sleepers often but I don't know about the BOS section.

I agree that we need more sleepers on almost all of the current runs. However, "forced' is not the correct word to use in regard to the Crew Dorm. The car was designed for the express purpose of housing the crew on one end and allowing paying customers to use the other end. It's simply smart revenue management to sell those rooms and help to pay for the cost of that car which is needed for the crew anyhow.

Of course for many years Amtrak wasn't being smart, and they didn't sell those rooms. David Gunn saw the folly of that and made the change that allows the cars to be used as intended.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

3. Cars would have a battery once again, this time a modern lightweight design, not the huge old lead-acid type of years ago. This would allow continuity of hotel power in emergencies and whenever the locomotive is detached from the train as for switching, etc.

This should be easy to achieve since at present it seems to be a unique American thing not to have enough battery power to keep at least the lights on for a considerable amount of time. The self-generating cars in places like India actually have enough battery capacity to keep not only the lights but even AC going for a considerable amount of time, though at a more sedate rate.

The Tesla Roadster battery pack weighs about a thousand pounds, stores about 53 kilowatt hours, and costs $36,000.

What's the average power consumption of a Superliner?

 

[MikeM]

Good discussion so far. I'd like to offer a few thoughts myself while we're at it...

1. I would like to see some upgrades in the sleepers, mostly with the restrooms on the lower level. Maybe remove one rest room and make the remainder a bit larger so you lose some of the "I'm locked in a closet" feeling. Plus more reliable toilets, the current systems seem to be plagued with problems at altitudes.
   
2. Add more electric outlets to the sleepers, at least two or more in the economy sleepers. Many folks travel with laptops, music players, and cell phones, so access is critical.
   
3. Add Wi-Fi as a extra cost option that can be signed up for en route. This would be a nice additional revenue source I suspect if it were well managed.
   
4. Reconfigure the lower level of the superliner lounges similar to the Superliner II's, but offer a larger "store" section. Effectively turn it into a convenience store on wheels. On many long distrance trains, stock starts to run out on day two, the added variety and stock would really help things.
   
5. Also, look at some sort of computerized register / inventory management in the lounge car! Bar codes have been out for several decades, having these would help headquarters see what's selling when and adjust accordingly.
   
6. Lose the top level bar station in the lounge car -- I have never once seen it used in all my travels. Mostly it's a place to put a broom and trash cans.
   
7. Look at creating an "arcade area" in the train, maybe a lower level coach, or the lounge car. Stock with kid-friendly video games and such; could be another source of revenue.
   
8. At many airports, there are kiosks where you can rent DVD's and video players -- wonder if something like this would work on the train, managed from the lounge car? (BTW, if all these ideas were brought in, you'd need to look at staffing the lounge better!)
   
9. For multi-day trips, I'd love to see a "enhanced coach" option, which would have single seats on each side of the aisle, with enhanced leg room. Think of this as the poor man's sleeper arrangement - could get more passengers per car than sleeper, but would allow for farther reclining seats, more privacy, and room to stretch out?
   

Also, I do like the idea of a "mini lounge" for sleeper passengers separate from the main observation car; this could provide additional incentive for upgrades to sleeper accommodations. Maybe a combination sleeper / sightseer lounge, or crew sleeper / lounge car? If the idea of smaller diners (aka CCC cars) were desired for smaller routes like the Pioneer, maybe you could do the sightseer windows in the lounge section, and incorporate some sort of small vending / food sales area?

Be interesting to see if any changes come, or if they'll just dust off the Superliner II plans?

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I LOVE those two car ideas. You'll be better serving both the high end and low end of the sleeper spectrum. Amtrak really needs to meet the needs of passengers who simply want a horizontal place to sleep. They don't care about meals or privacy. I've traveled both coach and roomette, and the only real issue I had with coach (and it was a big issue) was sleeping comfort level. I think a reasonable price point is $30-$50 per person per night for a horizontal sleeping position. Sure, having privacy and getting "free" meals was pretty nice in the roomette, but I'd have been just as happy without those things at a lower price point.

Simply adding another sleeping car of the same layout as the existing sleeping cars to each existing route would also reduce the price of a roomette, without creating the extra costs for Amtrak of having to deal with an additional car type.

By the time you factor in the inefficiency of an extra car type, I'm not sure the extra density of a couchette car is actually any cheaper to operate per passenger than the existing roomettes. Why spend the money on more complexity when you can spend it on more space for the most frugal overnight passengers instead?

And if there were more roomettes on each train, Amtrak might be able to offer a roomette without meals, given that a lot of the argument in favor of forcing sleeping car passengers to pay for meals is to generate enough demand for the dining car to make it practical to operate at all.

Remember that the price of a roomette is determined not by how much it costs Amtrak to run the train, but by what the highest bidders for the space in the rolling stock Amtrak happens to have are willing to pay.

 

[AlanB]

[*]Lose the top level bar station in the lounge car -- I have never once seen it used in all my travels. Mostly it's a place to put a broom and trash cans.

Ride the Empire Builder during peak times and you'll see it get used.

[*]Look at creating an "arcade area" in the train, maybe a lower level coach, or the lounge car. Stock with kid-friendly video games and such; could be another source of revenue.

Amtrak has 5 such cars on the Coast Starlight for years. They've met with moderate success, so I'm not sure if adding still more would be a good idea.

[*]At many airports, there are kiosks where you can rent DVD's and video players -- wonder if something like this would work on the train, managed from the lounge car? (BTW, if all these ideas were brought in, you'd need to look at staffing the lounge better!)

There was a private company that was sort of doing this, although you couldn't rent on the trains early on. They finally did try onboard rentals on one train, shortly before the company went bankrupt. Most people have their own DVD's these days and aren't looking for last minute rentals.

[*]For multi-day trips, I'd love to see a "enhanced coach" option, which would have single seats on each side of the aisle, with enhanced leg room. Think of this as the poor man's sleeper arrangement - could get more passengers per car than sleeper, but would allow for farther reclining seats, more privacy, and room to stretch out?

Basically what they need is the business class found in the Club-Dinette cars on the single level trains.

 

[sunchaser]

Parlor cars have been historically first class revenue chair cars used on shorter routes, or longer routes not involving an overnight operation.Non revenue space on long distance trains should be referred to as lounge cars, or first class lounge cars, if intended for that use.

The only cars that could offer a reasonable accommodation for smokers would be those neat bilevels operating on the Alaska RR that have a small open-air observation section.

I still really enjoy having the Parlor Car. For me, being new to trains, it was nice quiet space that was like being at home.

In fact given a choice, we ate all but one of our meals in the Parlor Car, which meant that we didn't take up space in the diner on that run.

Now you're talking! But now that means another type of Car to design. It would not bother me in the least bit to go outside & smoke. Maybe put it on the very end of the train after all the coaches?

 

[DesertRat]

Electronic or other type of keys for the sleeper rooms.

 

[Neil_M]

Electronic or other type of keys for the sleeper rooms.

How long would they stay working?

 

[MikeM]

I forgot this in my earlier wish list, but I'd love to see "real" temperature controls in the sleeper rooms!!!! I hate baking / freezing in a premium space. I've seen this in some other posts, and really think it's a great addition.

As to the locking sleeper doors -- I'd like to see that too, although I wonder if Amtrak's maintenance forces could keep them working over time. But, with more and more people bringing ipods, computers, and dvd players on trips, it'd be a nice peace of mind option.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

This page indicates that a typical Amtrak coach uses about 40 kW.

So a thousand pounds of lithium ion batteries would probably be sufficient to keep the heating/air conditioning running for about an hour, which probably isn't as much as would be ideal on a car pulled by a single locomotive with a non-redundant HEP source.

How hard would it be to build passenger cars that could carry the weight and had the space for 5000 to 10000 pounds of lithium ion batteries? That large a battery pack might be more expensive today than Amtrak would want to pay for, but 10 years into the life of the car, the cost of the battery packs may have come down a lot.

I also think Amtrak should be looking at putting diesel powered HEP generators into the cabbage conversions of the electric locomotives. For trains with a single P40/P42 running in push-pull mode, there may be some fuel savings from being able to let the prime mover in the P40/P42 run at a more efficient speed by not being stuck at the right multiple of 60 hz, the weight of the generator in the cabbage may be able to replace a concrete block, and the locomotive could take over providing HEP if the generator in the cabbage failed.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Electronic or other type of keys for the sleeper rooms.

How long would they stay working?

About a month.

 

[DesertRat]

Electronic or other type of keys for the sleeper rooms.

How long would they stay working?

About a month.

Well! But do we know that for sure? I just read on another thread that the City Line overnight trains in Europe use them. :unsure:

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Electronic or other type of keys for the sleeper rooms.

How long would they stay working?

About a month.

Well! But do we know that for sure? I just read on another thread that the City Line overnight trains in Europe use them. :unsure:

They don't have Congress and the President randomly zeroing their budget.

 

[AlanB]

So a thousand pounds of lithium ion batteries would probably be sufficient to keep the heating/air conditioning running for about an hour, which probably isn't as much as would be ideal on a car pulled by a single locomotive with a non-redundant HEP source.

Airlines are charging people for a 20 lb suitcase in part because they can get away with it, but in part because the extra weight does burn more fuel. And you want Amtrak to add 13,000 lbs to the weight of its trains?

How hard would it be to build passenger cars that could carry the weight and had the space for 5000 to 10000 pounds of lithium ion batteries? That large a battery pack might be more expensive today than Amtrak would want to pay for, but 10 years into the life of the car, the cost of the battery packs may have come down a lot.

Not hard for the Superliners, but depending on the physical size perhaps not possible for single level cars. But again, at what cost in terms of fuel consumption hauling around all that weight?

I also think Amtrak should be looking at putting diesel powered HEP generators into the cabbage conversions of the electric locomotives. For trains with a single P40/P42 running in push-pull mode, there may be some fuel savings from being able to let the prime mover in the P40/P42 run at a more efficient speed by not being stuck at the right multiple of 60 hz, the weight of the generator in the cabbage may be able to replace a concrete block, and the locomotive could take over providing HEP if the generator in the cabbage failed.

Amtrak doesn't have enough cabagges (22) to assign to the long distance trains. Even if they did, they provide a far more valuable service in their current roles. Not to mention that in some cases, the states provided some funding for their conversion, so they aren't going to let Amtrak put ponies in there and then steal them away for the LD's.

 

[Neil_M]

I forgot this in my earlier wish list, but I'd love to see "real" temperature controls in the sleeper rooms!!!! I hate baking / freezing in a premium space. I've seen this in some other posts, and really think it's a great addition.

In a sleeper vehicle it is quite hard to achieve. Think about it, you might want your room boiling hot, I might want mine freezing cold.

The way the sleepers in the UK get round it is to run the AC in 'cool' mode nearly all the time (with the addition of an internal heater bank in really cold external temperatures) and have a heater bank in each berth roof space so you add heat as you want to warm the room.

Having individual AC units for each berth would be very expensive and not the best way to go.

And as for what vehicles to buy, more sleepers. Given the prices that get charged for sleeper space it would be foolish to go for anything else, I think the slumbercoach thing is not the way to go. People want a sliver of privacy plus you could probably make more money out of a coach full of roomettes than a flophouse on wheels.

The seats in the SNCF night vehicles might be a good idea in coach though, virtually lie flat when extended and super comfortable.

In an ideal world a separate diner for sleeper passengers might be nice, and open up the existing diner to coach passengers and try to increase revenue by serving meals all day.