SWC issue heating up

[Nathanael]

I am going to repeat (at the risk of being repititious) that I am genuinely worried by the *lack* of passenger rail advocacy in Amarillo and Wichita. There should be groups agitating to have stations built and ready for the train. There aren't. There should be local governments passing resolutions of support for train service and allocating token amounts of money to planning studies. There aren't.

With the year 2015 and the words "might reroute" being used, ain't nothing going to happen soon.

It takes about three years to build a station.

There are quite a lot of small cities out there which have rebuilt their train stations (as "multimodal transportation centers", with bus service and visitor centers and whatnot) well before any trains came back -- in anticipation.

Some cities have done extensive planning studies on train service and station locations well before there was any hope of getting any money.

I guess there just is no interest in train service in Amarillo.

 

[Nathanael]

Will moving the route make the SWC faster?

At this point, yes. If both sets of tracks were maintained to the same standards (I am assuming the stop in Albuquerque on both routes) then the trip would take pretty much exactly the same amount of time. (Refer to the old Santa Fe timetables, when they ran passenger trains on both routes, if you like, for "theoretical best runtimes".)

However, the tracks through the Raton Pass are deteriorating -- and the tracks in western Kansas have been having their speed limits drop too, as BNSF uses that only for low-priority traffic. The result is that the route through Amarillo and Wichita would definitely be faster. Furthermore, it would almost certainly have fewer station stops -- which would make it even faster.

Amarillo alone has more population than the sum of the cities with stops from Lamy through Hutchinson (IIRC), so the reroute would probably actually have more passengers too; Wichita service would improve substantially and that would improve ridership even more. And if the Heartland Flyer extension gets funded, it would be cheaper (because it would only have to connect to Wichita, not to Newton).

I do think the Raton Pass route should be retained for Denver-Albuquerque service -- but there are really a lot of advantages to switching the Southwest Chief to *the route with the population*, especially since it'll be faster.

 

[BNSFboy]

1346648754[/url]' post='391305']

1346644410[/url]' post='391288']

1346643267[/url]' post='391275']I am going to repeat (at the risk of being repititious) that I am genuinely worried by the *lack* of passenger rail advocacy in Amarillo and Wichita. There should be groups agitating to have stations built and ready for the train. There aren't. There should be local governments passing resolutions of support for train service and allocating token amounts of money to planning studies. There aren't.

With the year 2015 and the words "might reroute" being used, ain't nothing going to happen soon.

It takes about three years to build a station.

There are quite a lot of small cities out there which have rebuilt their train stations (as "multimodal transportation centers", with bus service and visitor centers and whatnot) well before any trains came back -- in anticipation.

Some cities have done extensive planning studies on train service and station locations well before there was any hope of getting any money.

I guess there just is no interest in train service in Amarillo.

A station doesnt have to built. All the old stations are still standing and can be refurbished in a year or more.

 

[TML]

If the SWC were shifted southward, I can predict with absolute certainty that major communities along the new route will be served. That's exactly what happened with the CONO back in 1995 - when that route was shifted in Mississippi, communities along the old route lost service, but communities along the new route gained service.

 

[Bedford]

When the SWC moves south with a middle of the night stop in Wichita (you can do this now with short drive to Newton), Amarillo and no direct service to Albuquerque it won't last long. A way better replacement would be use big CZ+Desert Wind , add short new train extending connecting River runner KC-Omaha and restoration of Desert Wind. You lose Wichita and Amarillo but gain massive connectivity and add Las Vegas. States that want nothing to do with Amtrak unless it's free (Kansas,Texas-almost, NM, Colorado and Arizona) get left behind.

 

[Amtrak Cajun]

Once Amarillo realizes that it would get train service, then Im sure the interest will pick up. You cant be interested in something that you have never had.

As far as for Albuquerque, It would make sense to keep it, because its a big passenger load provider for Amtrak, they would be doing themselves a disservice to cut ABQ.

As far as for the speed factor, the faster and double tracked Transcon route is something that I see as a win win. The current route is being downgraded, and that isnt helping OTP of the SWC.

Just my 8 cents.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

We're saying that because Amarillo is larger than all of the other cities on the current route that would lose service, that there would instantly be more passengers. I guarantee that the percentage of population of each of thoise cities has a higher percentage of residents that use the train though. It takes a while for people to get used to the train. Don't forget about Raton, and the thousands of Boy Scouts that would not be served each year. In addition, though Wichita is a large city, it will not get major ridership on either an extended HF or the SWC, because the calling times would be between 1 and 3 am. Having the extended Flyer terminate in Wichita rather than Newton would not be a big deal costwise. 25 miles wouldn't make the costs instantly rise. Not many people want to be standing for 1 hour in a astation either at 2AM while connecting - it would do much better business to have connecting cars, but that wouldn't happen either both due to equipment shortages and the fact that with OTP, the trains can't rely on each other and hold each other up much. I guess all I really have to say is that I'm glad I had the chance to ride the entirety of the route in my young lifetime.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Will moving the route make the SWC faster?

At this point, yes. If both sets of tracks were maintained to the same standards (I am assuming the stop in Albuquerque on both routes) then the trip would take pretty much exactly the same amount of time. (Refer to the old Santa Fe timetables, when they ran passenger trains on both routes, if you like, for "theoretical best runtimes".)

However, the tracks through the Raton Pass are deteriorating -- and the tracks in western Kansas have been having their speed limits drop too, as BNSF uses that only for low-priority traffic. The result is that the route through Amarillo and Wichita would definitely be faster. Furthermore, it would almost certainly have fewer station stops -- which would make it even faster.

Amarillo alone has more population than the sum of the cities with stops from Lamy through Hutchinson (IIRC), so the reroute would probably actually have more passengers too; Wichita service would improve substantially and that would improve ridership even more. And if the Heartland Flyer extension gets funded, it would be cheaper (because it would only have to connect to Wichita, not to Newton).

I do think the Raton Pass route should be retained for Denver-Albuquerque service -- but there are really a lot of advantages to switching the Southwest Chief to *the route with the population*, especially since it'll be faster.

If the reroute will shorten trip times back to 39 hours 45 minutes, then I will have no problem with it. I don't exactly hate the new "wide flat desert" route, either.

When the SWC moves south with a middle of the night stop in Wichita (you can do this now with short drive to Newton), Amarillo and no direct service to Albuquerque it won't last long. A way better replacement would be use big CZ+Desert Wind , add short new train extending connecting River runner KC-Omaha and restoration of Desert Wind. You lose Wichita and Amarillo but gain massive connectivity and add Las Vegas. States that want nothing to do with Amtrak unless it's free (Kansas,Texas-almost, NM, Colorado and Arizona) get left behind.

With UP controlling the old DW route, it won't happen unless Amtrak gets huge funds. You also lose KCY and ABQ service. If the SWC does end up getting cancelled I would expect the CHI-KCY section to remain.

 

[jis]

When the SWC moves south with a middle of the night stop in Wichita (you can do this now with short drive to Newton), Amarillo and no direct service to Albuquerque it won't last long. A way better replacement would be use big CZ+Desert Wind , add short new train extending connecting River runner KC-Omaha and restoration of Desert Wind. You lose Wichita and Amarillo but gain massive connectivity and add Las Vegas. States that want nothing to do with Amtrak unless it's free (Kansas,Texas-almost, NM, Colorado and Arizona) get left behind.

Irrespective of which of the routes the SWC takes, there will be direct service to Albuquerque, so that is a non-issue.

It is highly unlikely that there will be a Desert Wind unless someone comes up with some large amounts of money to meet UP requirements for reinstatement of the same, so scratch that idea. In general anything that involves significant new route addition is unlikely.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

How about Boy Scouts maintaining the track through Raton Pass? All they need is a merit badge in maintenance of way. :lol:

 

[printman2000]

I guess there just is no interest in train service in Amarillo.

Yeah, I guess that is it. Amarillo does not want a train because they are not building a station for a train they have not even been told about and do not even know if they will get. Makes perfect sense.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

I guess there just is no interest in train service in Amarillo.

Yeah, I guess that is it. Amarillo does not want a train because they are not building a station for a train they have not even been told about and do not even know if they will get. Makes perfect sense.

I know you're making a point here, but Amarillo already has a train station and platform clearly visible on Google Maps, right underneath an overpass. It would require a very short back-in move though. It really is cool that they have what looks like a nice platform 41 years after the last service.

But in a way, Nathanael is right. In the same way that all of the current cities are making noise about keeping the train on the present route, there haven't been any announcements along the Transcon that they want service either. You see places all over other parts of the country that say they want service, but there is not here. Like southern Montana has been making noise, people in Maine are making noise for even further extensions, and places in the midwest are even more active in that regard. Amarillo, not so much.

 

[printman2000]

There was a movement for a Caprock Express a while back. It never got very far. So Amarillo has been interested but realized new service was not going to happen. As of now, I doubt the local government even knows anything about all this talk so of course they are not doing anything.

As far as the depot, it is now privately owned. I have met with he owner and he was working with the city when they were talking Caprock Express. He may well still be agreeable. No backup move is needed to get in. Through tracks run right by it. Though the platform is not close enough to the tracks anymore.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

There was a movement for a Caprock Express a while back. It never got very far. So Amarillo has been interested but realized new service was not going to happen. As of now, I doubt the local government even knows anything about all this talk so of course they are not doing anything.

As far as the depot, it is now privately owned. I have met with he owner and he was working with the city when they were talking Caprock Express. He may well still be agreeable. No backup move is needed to get in. Through tracks run right by it. Though the platform is not close enough to the tracks anymore.

Through tracks sure don't run through it if we're talking about the SWC route. For a Caprock Chief via Trinidad not Las Animas it would work, but the only two routes that really run-through it would be the route to Trinidad and the RI route to Tucumcari, but even that would require a new crossover.

 

[printman2000]

I was talking about Amarillo and how it would not require a back in move to get to the depot. When the SWC has rerouted through here, it is a through route.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

I was talking about Amarillo and how it would not require a back in move to get to the depot. When the SWC has rerouted through here, it is a through route.

I suppose we're talking about different depots. I'm referencing the one underneath Pierce Street. That is the one I've been providing info on, with the nice platform. There may be another one along the Transcon that you know about.

 

[printman2000]

I was talking about Amarillo and how it would not require a back in move to get to the depot. When the SWC has rerouted through here, it is a through route.

I suppose we're talking about different depots. I'm referencing the one underneath Pierce Street. That is the one I've been providing info on, with the nice platform. There may be another one along the Transcon that you know about.

Yeah, that was the old Rock Island depot. I am pretty certain it is not there anymore or has been totally repurposed. I am not even certain it was a passenger depot. I am talking about the old Santa Fe depot.

 

[printman2000]

Sorry, not Rock Island. It was apparently Fort Worth & Denver. Never heard of that one.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Sorry, not Rock Island. It was apparently Fort Worth & Denver. Never heard of that one.

Fort Worth and Denver was in charge of the line between Denver and Fort Worth via Trinidad and Amarillo. I believe it later became Colorado and Southern. As I mentioned, the platform and a little station underneath the overpass are still intact. A crossover would be required to access the ex-RI tracks. I thought that this was the main depot in Amarillo, but I suppose it was secondary. It would be the station used if a Caprock Chief was ever brought back, although the plans in the early 2000's had it routed through Boise City rather than Trinidad, in which case it would still not be used.

 

[gswager]

I've been inside Clovis station few years ago. Station is still well taken care of. It is now used as a model railroad museum with 1906 ATS 9005 0-6-0 steam locomotive in the parking lot. Front platform is still there, in front of mainline. Other side of mainline is a rail yard.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Sorry, not Rock Island. It was apparently Fort Worth & Denver. Never heard of that one.

Fort Worth and Denver was part of the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad. At one time, Texas required railroads operating in their state to be headquarted there. So there were a lot of subsidiary "paper" railroads operating in Texas.

 

[rusty spike]

Sorry, not Rock Island. It was apparently Fort Worth & Denver. Never heard of that one.

Fort Worth and Denver was in charge of the line between Denver and Fort Worth via Trinidad and Amarillo. I believe it later became Colorado and Southern. As I mentioned, the platform and a little station underneath the overpass are still intact. A crossover would be required to access the ex-RI tracks. I thought that this was the main depot in Amarillo, but I suppose it was secondary. It would be the station used if a Caprock Chief was ever brought back, although the plans in the early 2000's had it routed through Boise City rather than Trinidad, in which case it would still not be used.

As a young man, I visited Amarillo. I stood at the corner of 4th and Pierce Sts. and you could see both stations with the big signs simutaneouly. .Looking north, the "Burlington Route" , and to the east the "Santa Fe" . There was no overpass and Pierce St. actually dead-ended at the Burlington (Ft. Worth & Denver) station and of course 4th St. dead ends at the Santa Fe station. I believe the BNSF uses the old Burlington station for MOW or whatever and as printman has indicated the AT&SF station is privately owned. I think the Rock Island station (which was demolished) was at the end of Filmore St.

 

[printman2000]

Another article. This one from Trains magazine's Fred Frailey...

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2012/09/03/where-is-the-southwest-chief-headed.aspx

But a reroute of the Southwest Chief is anything but assured. BNSF’s freight route, used by as many as 80 trains a day, has three single-track segments that on busy days cause trains to back up on both sides. The railroad would certainly demand as a condition for a rerouting that Amtrak pay for closing those single-track stretches, and the cost could easily eclipse the $100 million needed to put new rail on the northern route that the train presently takes. Staying put with the train or moving it will entail huge costs.

As I understood it, BNSF will not ask for money from Amtrak for the reroute since they decided to stop maintaining the current route and are required to provide a route for the train. Is that wrong information? Is BNSF likely to demand upgrades for the reroute?

 

[ehbowen]

How about Boy Scouts maintaining the track through Raton Pass? All they need is a merit badge in maintenance of way. :lol:

For half a second I thought you were serious.

 

[jis]

Another article. This one from Trains magazine's Fred Frailey...

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2012/09/03/where-is-the-southwest-chief-headed.aspx

But a reroute of the Southwest Chief is anything but assured. BNSF’s freight route, used by as many as 80 trains a day, has three single-track segments that on busy days cause trains to back up on both sides. The railroad would certainly demand as a condition for a rerouting that Amtrak pay for closing those single-track stretches, and the cost could easily eclipse the $100 million needed to put new rail on the northern route that the train presently takes. Staying put with the train or moving it will entail huge costs.

As I understood it, BNSF will not ask for money from Amtrak for the reroute since they decided to stop maintaining the current route and are required to provide a route for the train. Is that wrong information? Is BNSF likely to demand upgrades for the reroute?

I believe you are correct and Fred Frailey is wrong on this one, or at least that is the information I have from the Amtrak LD ops folks. but then again they may be wrong too. Who knows?