Talgo Tilting Trains Question

[jccollins]

Talgo tilting trains are supposed to be used to allow the train to move at higher speeds on curving tracks, right? Then why was/is a Talgo designated for the LA-Las Vegas route? Wouldn't this be primarily a "straight shot" track through the desert? I can't imagine too many curves or hills on this route... I know these trains are nice on the inside, but it would seem like a waste of money and technology to run expensive tilting trains on this route if they weren't really necessary. Couldn't a Surfliner make the trip in the same amount of time?

Second question: Does anyone know the average speed of the California Zephyr between Sacramento/Auburn and Reno? I know it is very slow, but don't know quite hoe slow - maybe 25 mph? Couldn't one of these Talgos operate over this stretch of track at a much faster speed (thanks to tilting technology) and shave an hour or so off the trip?

 

[Allen Dee]

Amtrak tested several train sets on the Los Angeles to Las Vegas route. The Talgo was just one of them. It was determined that the Surfliner was the most appropriate equipment to operate on this route. Had the "no new trains" restriction not been placed on Amtrak operations, this is what would be running on this corridor today. You can thank your congressmen and the Bush administration for not allowing these trains to run.

95% of the people who travel between Los Angeles and Las Vegas drive. 95% of these people refuse to do it again until the construction projects are completed, and that could take close to a decade.

The Las Vegas resorts are hurting. Within the past week I have received numerous e-mails and snail-mails from various hotels offering free rooms and meals. And I am not a high-roller.

Hopefully, the charters that Key Holidays operate next year will convince Amtrak that this is a viable market.

 

[pismobum]

Surfliners were not going to Vegas. They do not have enough to adequately cover existing Surf service, and there are none on order. The Talgo set was "available", thus it was the equipment of choice at the time.

Don't hold your breath waiting for a Vegas train - we are an 'auto-centric' people, and the auto or air will always get the majority of Vegas traffic - A train service will never amount to more than a few people riding.

 

[Steve4031]

Talgo tilting trains are supposed to be used to allow the train to move at higher speeds on curving tracks, right? Then why was/is a Talgo designated for the LA-Las Vegas route? Wouldn't this be primarily a "straight shot" track through the desert? I can't imagine too many curves or hills on this route... I know these trains are nice on the inside, but it would seem like a waste of money and technology to run expensive tilting trains on this route if they weren't really necessary. Couldn't a Surfliner make the trip in the same amount of time?
Second question: Does anyone know the average speed of the California Zephyr between Sacramento/Auburn and Reno? I know it is very slow, but don't know quite hoe slow - maybe 25 mph? Couldn't one of these Talgos operate over this stretch of track at a much faster speed (thanks to tilting technology) and shave an hour or so off the trip?

Well, there is Cajon pass, and there are curves on this route as it passes through the desert.

 

[amtrakadirondack]

Amtrak did use a Surfliner train set as one of the many "test trains", it had a F59PHI in the front, a Pacific Business Class, a Coach/Cafe, two Coaches, one Coach/Baggage, and another F59PHI on the rear, but as it was determined that the Talgo was the best equipment to use on that route, one of them was time wise, a Surfliner train wouldn't come close to a Talgo trainset by time.

 

[tubaallen]

The CZ does run slow, but keep in mind this is not so much because of the curves, but more because of the uphill work the engines have to do. There are some curves present, true, because it does slow them down going down as well, I suppose though.

 

[amtrakadirondack]

The CZ does run slow, but keep in mind this is not so much because of the curves, but more because of the uphill work the engines have to do. There are some curves present, true, because it does slow them down going down as well, I suppose though.

Yes, the engines would be working so hard to get over the Sierra’s that they would probably overheat, and that’s not good thing.

 

[Superliner Diner]

Had the "no new trains" restriction not been placed on Amtrak operations, this is what would be running on this corridor today.  You can thank your congressmen and the Bush administration for not allowing these trains to run.

Allen,

It's not just our federal government's temporary restriction on new trains that you can blame for this train not going into service. Union Pacific threw a curve to Amtrak, requiring a double track in certain places in order for freights and the one daily passenger train round trip to coexist (which makes little sense, but that's the UP! )

The double-tracking project was delayed for environmental reasons, specifically because a certain endangered breed of turtle was threatened by the work. So the process of restoring this line for passenger service has itself gone a a turtle's pace.

Then there is the equipment issue. Yes, the Talgo was chosen -- it was even purchased. The designated "Las Vegas" trainset has since been put into use on one of the Cascades trips that operates north of Seattle. It will probably stay there, because those people have become accustomed to the Talgo level of service. The equipment used for Surfliner service will most likely be used, but now it too has been fully deployed, with the maximum possible numbers of trips running on the three California corridors.

Finally, there was a disagreement on the route to be taken within the Southland of California. Would they use the route that the Desert Wind used to follow via Fullerton, or would they go out on the UP line in the median or I-10? Would they serve any intermediate stops, especially in the L.A. basin? A lot still has to be worked out with regard to establishing this service.

And while I realize that we may have lost the Desert Wind (Los Angeles-Las Vegas-Salt Lake City-Denver-Chicago) for good, it may not be a bad idea to go beyond Las Vegas to Salt Lake City, to tap that market and possibly have connections with the California Zephyr. That would make more sense than having the consist sit in Las Vegas all day between runs. It might require a second trainset, but the investment would be well worth it, truly serving the public and once more allowing access to and from Las Vegas in all directions.

 

[Guest_steve_relei]

The Talgo trains are pretty nice trains, and they have great appeal to the traveling public. In the Pacific Northwest, they have proven popular oth the traveling public, and that is important in getting people to use the train. I can't image that the Talgo trains are that much more expensive than Superliners or Surfliner cars. As has been related, the Talgos are already paid for, they have the potential for multiple use--short-distance, long-distance, commuter, etc. In the NW, the trains are push/pull operations, which means the trains do not have to be turned around. They are capable oof speeds up to 120 mph, either straight of curves. I have no problem with these trains being used on the LA-Las Vegas route, if that is what happens.

 

[Superliner Diner]

I have no problem with these trains being used on the LA-Las Vegas route, if that is what happens.

But would you want to see your current level of service cut in half because the equipment is not there anymore, or changed to Amfleet or Superliners (which are much older and less capable of handling the curves than Talgos) ???

 

[steve_relei]

I believe there is still the original Talgo train Amtrak used when it first started testing them. I am sure something can be worked out so that service in the Northwest is not compromised by taking away trains for use elsewhere. I believe the State of Washington owns the trains. It would have to give its permission to use the trains elsewhere. Because I know how good the trains are here, I know they would be a hit on other lines/routes. Right now, there is also the question of funding the (Cascades) trains between Portland and Eugene.

 

[amtrakadirondack]

Right now, there is also the question of funding the (Cascades) trains between Portland and Eugene.

The State of Oregon funds that part of the route.

 

[Amfleet]

Right now, there is also the question of funding the (Cascades) trains between Portland and Eugene.

The State of Oregon funds that part of the route.

Yes, but that may not be the case down the road.

 

[steve_relei]

My original answer was to point out the merits of using a Talgo train on the LA - Las Vegas route, not on whether the train would have to come from some other well-used line. If the State of Oregon does take away funding for the trains, they would still be used on the Portland-Seattle portions of the Cascades Corridor. The Eugene portions are extensions of those routes that were already in service. The State Of Washington still owns those trains and would still have to give its permission for the trains to be used elsewhere--which is always a possibility. The trains continue to be popular with travelers here in the Northwest.

 

[amtrakadirondack]

Right now, there is also the question of funding the (Cascades) trains between Portland and Eugene.

The State of Oregon funds that part of the route.

Yes, but that may not be the case down the road.

Great, cuts for the route I want to work on, well at least the State of Washington keeps funding the Cascades. <_< <_< <_< <_< <_<

 

[jccollins]

The equipment used for Surfliner service will most likely be used, but now it too has been fully deployed, with the maximum possible numbers of trips running on the three California corridors.

Well, this has definitely turned into an interesting discussion!

SuperlinerDiner - Isn't there still some idle time for the Capitols in Northen California? Their business plan states that they have enough current equipment to begin running at least six or seven round trip from Sacramento all the way to San Jose upon the completion of the major trackwork that is occurring between Oakland and San Jose... Right now only four round trips/weekDAYS operate the entire length SAC-SJC, although six (however, seemingly underused) round trips/weekENDS & holidays operate the entire length SAC-SJC of the route. Couldn't one trainset be pulled from the Capitols (I know the CCJPA wouldn't be happy about it) and still allow them to run all their scheduled trains? It might mean a reduction from six to four weekend round trips from SAC-SJC, but it would definitely be worth it if LA-Las Vegas service could be initiated.

Secondly, what happened to all those older single level trains that used to operate on the San Diegans (now Pac. Surfs) route? Did they all disappear? Could one long train consist be created with the old equipment to at least launch the service until funding becomes available to purchase newer equipment (maybe the casinos would be willing to help out here once the service is launched. They could purchase the train cars in exchange for a set amount of seats on each train in which they could offer to their casino guests...) ???

 

[battalion51]

Most of the equipment was returned to the NEC (as all of it was Amfleet), some of it was retired (cab coaches), but for the most part they are back on the NEC. As for using the equipment again, there would have to be a large financial incentive from the State of California for Amtrak to bring the equipment back over.