TGV
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Dutchrailnut
Conductor
The Acela is a form of TGV, designed for North America.
The European TGV would not work, different floor height, non FRA compliant.
I would say so, there might have to be some voltage adjustments or electrical modifications but the TGV runs on the same guage track as our trains here in the US, (4ft 8 1/2in or 1435mm if I'm not mistaken). While the TGV is designed to run faster it probably could not go as fast as the Acela on average due to the NEC curves. The Acela has the tilt feature while the TGV does not. One possible arguement, (a serious national pride issue here), is: why doesn't the US just buy the TGV 'off the shelf'? Trains, track, signaling and all. Choose a pair of cites and connect them- build them just like the French did and be done with it. Skip the typical nonesense of years of study and R&D. Spain has/is. South Korea has/is and I believe Argentina is also about to purchase a TGV based system. The TGV is as near to a perfect high-speed passenger rail system as is one is likely going to get. There are many versions of TGV available to include TGV Thalys which operates on four different voltages, (France: 25KV AC at 50 Hz, Belgium: 3000v DC, Netherlands: 1500v DC and in Germany 15KV AC at 16 2/3HZ). David Gunn, (former Amtrak CEO), has said it several times. 'If you want to go faster on the NEC you'll have to build a whole new railroad'. Or something to that effect.
Check out TGV web- there's some pretty good info on that site as well.
It depend on where you are on the NEC. North of New Haven it's 25 KV, NHV to New Rochelle it's 12.5 KV, south of there it's 11 KV IIRC.
jis
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The 12.5kV 60Hz is from NHV to CP Gate, a mile short of Harold (by Sunnyside). From CP Gate to Washington DC is 11kV 25Hz. Of course NHV to BOS is 25kV 60Hz. The frequency is an important parameter in AC electrification since equipment designed to operate on 60Hz, won't necessarily be able to operate under 25Hz due to differences necessary in the main transformer.
To make a TGV work on the NEC, it would probably take modifications similar to those Amtrak performed on the Swedish X2000 and German ICE:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/ice/ice_usa.html
"The electric system was modified for Amtrak's 12kV/25Hz current system. The pantographs were replaced by a Brecknell & Willes model able to handle the old catenary on Northeast Corridor with extreme height differences. The headlights were replaced by a brighter type, the cab instruments were changed to US standards, the security systems Indusi and Integra were replaced by automatic train control and automatic speed control. The gauge and wheel profile was changed too. The couplers were replaced by a knuckle coupler type H, so the train could be pulled by Diesel locomotives on non-electrified lines. For this, two prototype locomotives F69PHAC and a luggage car (serving as transformer car for powering the ICE's carriages) were repainted in the ICE livery. The demonstration train was easily distinguishable by the large Amtrak decals that replaced the DB logos."
http://www.railfaneurope.net/ice/ice_usa.html
"The electric system was modified for Amtrak's 12kV/25Hz current system. The pantographs were replaced by a Brecknell & Willes model able to handle the old catenary on Northeast Corridor with extreme height differences. The headlights were replaced by a brighter type, the cab instruments were changed to US standards, the security systems Indusi and Integra were replaced by automatic train control and automatic speed control. The gauge and wheel profile was changed too. The couplers were replaced by a knuckle coupler type H, so the train could be pulled by Diesel locomotives on non-electrified lines. For this, two prototype locomotives F69PHAC and a luggage car (serving as transformer car for powering the ICE's carriages) were repainted in the ICE livery. The demonstration train was easily distinguishable by the large Amtrak decals that replaced the DB logos."
Joel N. Weber II
Engineer
And where are you going to put that track? Are you proposing to skip due process in acquiring the land for its current users?
A big problem with the NEC is that many of the curves are tighter than would be ideal, but finding unused land in the right places and shape isn't easy.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
Tunnel underground?
George Harris
Engineer
You still have to buy the right to do it from the people on the surface. If you want real fun with right of way for a tunnel, try doing one under a cemetary, even if you over 100 feet under it, you have to find the owners or their heirs. Remember, by definition, most of the owners of cemetary lots are dead.
Dutchrailnut
Conductor
Tunnels are ok for limited mileage, but passengers only put up with being treated as something being pushed truogh a sewer for so long.
Putting trains underground may work for subways but for longer distance people just won't put up with it.
Putting trains underground may work for subways but for longer distance people just won't put up with it.
They do it in Europe all of the time. Examples: The channel tunnel, the line between Florence and Bologna in Italy, the line from Pisa to Milan along the coast . . . Extensive tunneling is routine in Europe. And people don't complain, and they ride the train too.
Yes . . . it will be difficult to build tunnels and bridges, and new right of ways, but the same issues apply to new roads and new runways. This country is going to have to develop the political will to change, or it will continue to fail. The road system is overloaded, and the airline system is struggling, and will be making extensive fuel cutbacks while raising prices. So if we do not develop a high speed rail system in the next 10 to 15 years, this country will stop functioning.
p&sr
OBS Chief
Very true. On the ICE Trains in Germany, and some of the LD Trains in Switzerland (as much Long-Distance as they have room for, anyway, eg from Bern to Zurich) the Trains travel "straight as an arrow", and perfectly level. Every hill or section of higher ground is tunneled through, no matter how large. On some of these runs, it feels like about half the distance is underground.
And they're building a whole new generation of Tunnels under the Alps, called "Base Tunnels". Instead of just tunneling through the main summit, they tunnel through all the foothills on both sides of the Mountains as well. One of them is to be 35 miles long!
Well, I was not truly refering to just the NEC. The NEC is about as good as its going to get time and speed wise without a HUGE investment that may not really pay off. The NEC needs to work on, (strictly my opinion here), extending platforms to accept longer consists of Acela or Acela type, (for the future), trains. Acela is winning the battle on the NEC, Amtrak just needs to keep capitalizing on that.
The 'TGV off the shelf' idea would be for other parts of the country. We have the technology and the know how. We can essentially put the tracks anywhere. There are no engineering limitations that cannot be overcome in this country that haven't been overcome in other parts of the world. The problem is as it always has been: Politics and people. The airlines face the same issues, all the time: "Hey Congressman so and so, I don't want the planes flying over MY house. No I won't move out of my home of 30+ years so you can expand the airport." The TGV/high speed rail system would face the same issues. Again, how bad does the majority of the people in this country want high speed rail? Appearantly not enough, yet. HSR projects should go on a ballot, (California and Florida-again, I believe), and let the majority of the people decide if its worth funding or not. Its not really that difficult. Public ads and mailings go out describing the project: Where its going to go, how its going to be funded and who would be affected, (in terms of being asked to move). The government would then offer the fair market value price of the homes/businesses that would have to be bought up in order to construct the right of way. IF it is done correctly and with respect. I feel that the majority of those affected could be persuaded to move. These 'move costs' would have to be figured into the initial budget estimate.
Now, probably several of you are chomping at the bit to take me to task over what I just typed but how else is it going to be done? I'm certainly not advocating that the Government forceably make people move. It is a case of majority rules, like this country is supposed to be run. I can honestly say that if I received a letter or phone call outlining my proposal above I would have no problem moving if: I had plenty of notice, say about a year. Money up front to buy a new home elsewhere or in the same neighborhood. Payment for the cost of moving and a tax break incentive to do so on my new property. Cover those issues and you can have my home and property- but that's just me. Legislation would have to be enacted for those who don't feel that this compensation plan is enough and we all know no Representative would have the spine to support this.
As far as I remember the ICE trains had its normal cab instruments just like the X2000. On the X2000 the electric system was modified to handle 11 kV/25 Hz, 12,5 kV/60Hz, and 25 kV/60 Hz. It also got Brecknell & Willes pantographs. It kept its original headlights, they were bright enough. The wheel profile was changed slightly but there was no reason to change the gauge, it's the same in most of Europe as it is here. The Swedish Automatic Train Control system was replaced by the same cab signaling system Amtrak is using on its other locomotives on the NEC. Amtrak radio was installed. For non-electrified lines 2 of Amtrak's RTLs (#154 + 158) were used to push or pull the train in the northeast. For the rest of the country 2 F40s (#281 + 376 most of the time) were used. The diesels could be controlled from the X2000's cab car making it possible to have them pushing the X2000 in front of them.
The X2000 and the ICE at Penn Station, New York City, August 11 1993.
The controls in the X2000 (most of them).
To buy TGV off the shelf would not be a good idea. It would not be able to run very fast on the NEC tracks. The TGV manufacturer said no thanks when invited to send a train set to the US in the early 90's for tests claiming the track standard was too poor. TGV needs perfect tracks to run at high speed. The ICE did not run well either. After adjusting the wheel profile the X2000 run very well on excisting tracks.
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