The Blue Water and Pere Marquette trains are again under the gun.

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jun 19, 2003
Messages
1,805
Location
Harrison Michigan
The Blue Water and Pere Marquette trains are again under the gun. The Michigan Senate has proposed cutting the funding of the service to $3.7 Million for Fiscal Year 2010. Meanwhile, the governor and state house are proposing a cut to $5.7 Million. The trains need at least $6.4 Million to continue operating as they do now. Please contact your representatives and remind them of the need for passenger rail service in Michigan.

Save Our Trains Michigan will be holding a rally at the East Lansing Amtrak station on August 22-2009 from 7:30am-12:30pm

Food and drinks will be served.
 
That's better than the Ethan Allen, Vermonter, Piedmont, Hoosier State, and the Heartland Flyer. Although the Hoosier State does have a partial excuse, since 3 days a week the ridership in both directions goes to the Cardinal. It's in line with ridership on the Adirondack, and lags behind the Carolinian.

Of course it falls far behind services that run more than 1 daily round trip.
 
There is only one trip in each direction for both the Marquette and the Water. There are three Wolverine services from Chicago to Detroit and Pontiac and back. I would think that ridership might more than double if there were a second trip in each direction on the Marquette and the Water, as at least some passengers who would be inconvenienced by having to spend the night somewhere if they took the train would be able to go away and back in one day with an additional service.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yeah, but Michigan is not a big supporter of passenger rail. They don't care about the ridership, just the $ and ¢.
 
Yeah, but Michigan is not a big supporter of passenger rail. They don't care about the ridership, just the $ and ¢.
That, unfortunately, is the truth about this state.

A friend of mine recently put it this way and I could not agree with him any more:

Michigan is a strange state; truly a peninsula in more ways than one. I've gathered that most of its residents are xenophobic, car-centric, and close-minded. Most... not all.
 
Well Michigan does pay more for its trains that many states do. Yes, Michigan could do better. And it would be nice if they'd stop playing this "let's kill the funding for Amtrak" game every few years. But there are states that spend zero on rail.
 
Well Michigan does pay more for its trains that many states do. Yes, Michigan could do better. And it would be nice if they'd stop playing this "let's kill the funding for Amtrak" game every few years. But there are states that spend zero on rail.
Like Ohio!

Well, we're working on that I think...
 
Well Michigan does pay more for its trains that many states do. Yes, Michigan could do better. And it would be nice if they'd stop playing this "let's kill the funding for Amtrak" game every few years. But there are states that spend zero on rail.
Like Ohio!

Well, we're working on that I think...
M - I read an article the other day about a group in Cincinnati who is strongly opposed to the Three-C idea and wants NO trains from Cincinnati to Columbus and Cleveland to happen. Have you heard anything about that? I can't find the source I read right off.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Well Michigan does pay more for its trains that many states do. Yes, Michigan could do better. And it would be nice if they'd stop playing this "let's kill the funding for Amtrak" game every few years. But there are states that spend zero on rail.
Like Ohio!

Well, we're working on that I think...
M - I read an article the other day about a group in Cincinnati who is strongly opposed to the Three-C idea and wants NO trains from Cincinnati to Columbus and Cleveland to happen. Have you heard anything about that? I can't find the source I read right off.
There's a couple of issues boiling right now.

1. There is a group in Cin-city who are opposed to a proposed tax increase that would, amongst other things, offer monies to improve Union Terminal. (Though its primary focus is their planned streetcar bit) article here.

2. Amtrak delayed a deadline for a report with NS and CSX to determine how Amtrak could do the CLE, C-Bus, Dayton, CIN, route with minimal impact on freights as well as potential ridership figures. This could make it harder to get funds from HSR and is pretty much a political flub. article here.

3. The Tri-C corridor is the most densely populated midwestern corridor, and probably rivals the densities of of most others. The 255 original Tri-C route (without a stop in Dayton) has a total population of seven million and a density of 27,500 people per rail mile. Add in Dayton and that density increases. This should be a no-brainer for HSR.

4. There are many Ohioans who, when told about HSR thought TGV but when they realized it was a couple of Amfleets dawdling along at highway speeds the idea lost the appeal. There are some who propose jumping on the Talgo boat, but this is unlikely to happen in a state that was built on steel, cars, (trains even), and good old blue collar American industry. The outsourcing argument would do well here, though a Talgo set would improve the image of an Ohio train. (image, nothing more)

Myself, while not opposed to the idea, don't think it is going to work. I'll hold out until Amtrak releases its numbers, but if they cannot get the schedule trimmed this just will not work. Ohio is more conservative than most other states vying for HSR funds, it has also been very neglectful of its rail lines, mostly leaving them in the hands of the freights. The best lines in Ohio are the ones Amtrak uses, CHI-TOL, TOL-CLE, CLE-PGH, and CLE-Erie. There is very little traffic between the three major cities on this route, thus neglect. NS runs its trains between CLE and PGH, anything South of that line gets little traffic, and if it does-- they don't run lines North/South, they run East/West, C-bus-PGH, Indy-C-Bus, the CIN-CLE line doesn't exist without switching to CSX trackage, which is bad according to what I hear.

The Tri-C corridor, more than any of the other viable midwestern corridors I've seen requires the highest capitalist investment if Amtrak doesn't want it to flop flat in five years.
 
The more I think about it though, the more likely I think it is possible to get enough of the HSR pie for this to work...

1. Obama lost to Clinton in the primary elections in Ohio, because of fears of being too liberal

2. Gov. Strickland has delivered the 3C corridor as his baby and promised it to the state

3. Both Obama and Strickland are having a tough time with the public due to the recession

4. A successful HSR project would bump up both of their cred marks a knotch.
 
Save Our Train Rally

Because of Michigan's budget crisis, Amtrak funding is in jeopardy. The proposed cut in funding could result in the loss of the "Blue Water" and "Pere Marquette" Amtrak trains or a reduction of the seven-day train schedule. The rally is to send a message to the governor, Legislature, and other local and state officials that we need to keep rail transportation in Michigan.

http://search.lansingstatejournal.com/sp?a...22&skin=100
 
There is only one trip in each direction for both the Marquette and the Water. There are three Wolverine services from Chicago to Detroit and Pontiac and back. I would think that ridership might more than double if there were a second trip in each direction on the Marquette and the Water, as at least some passengers who would be inconvenienced by having to spend the night somewhere if they took the train would be able to go away and back in one day with an additional service.
You are correct - I'm a regular rider on the Pere Marquette and it is almost always SOLD OUT! At a minimum they could have 2 trains a day in the summer when ridership is at its highest. They just don't seem to get that bringing people INTO Michigan from Chicago brings $$$$ into Michigan!
 
Last edited:
There is only one trip in each direction for both the Marquette and the Water. There are three Wolverine services from Chicago to Detroit and Pontiac and back. I would think that ridership might more than double if there were a second trip in each direction on the Marquette and the Water, as at least some passengers who would be inconvenienced by having to spend the night somewhere if they took the train would be able to go away and back in one day with an additional service.
Yes i agree we would even like to see a East Lansing to Det train real easy to do all the stations are already setup.

The big problem is we have to fight for State funding every year and that takes away from trying to add service there are 3 groups that fight very hard in Michigan to keep these trains going Save Our Trains Michigan/MARP/NARP.

And since Save Our Trains Michigan is not a non profit org we can attack harder on a person to person level unlike MARP and NARP.
 
Yeah, but Michigan is not a big supporter of passenger rail. They don't care about the ridership, just the $ and ¢.
Actually, Michigan is a fairly good supporter of passenger rail. In addition to the Blue Water and Pere Marquette, the state has funded the improvements to Amtrak-owned Michigan Line to allow 95 mph running including a sophisticated signal system. Is it as much as rail supporters want it to be? Probably not.

The yearly battles over the rail funding are certainly a waste of time.
 
Yeah, but Michigan is not a big supporter of passenger rail. They don't care about the ridership, just the $ and ¢.
Actually, Michigan is a fairly good supporter of passenger rail. In addition to the Blue Water and Pere Marquette, the state has funded the improvements to Amtrak-owned Michigan Line to allow 95 mph running including a sophisticated signal system. Is it as much as rail supporters want it to be? Probably not.

The yearly battles over the rail funding are certainly a waste of time.
As far as that line Michigan puts in a little money but a lot of the money is from the Federal Govt since Amtrak owns the line from Kalamazoo to Porter.

As far as the State funded trains Michigan wants very little to do with them.
 
Yeah, but Michigan is not a big supporter of passenger rail. They don't care about the ridership, just the $ and ¢.
Actually, Michigan is a fairly good supporter of passenger rail. In addition to the Blue Water and Pere Marquette, the state has funded the improvements to Amtrak-owned Michigan Line to allow 95 mph running including a sophisticated signal system. Is it as much as rail supporters want it to be? Probably not.

The yearly battles over the rail funding are certainly a waste of time.
As far as that line Michigan puts in a little money but a lot of the money is from the Federal Govt since Amtrak owns the line from Kalamazoo to Porter.

As far as the State funded trains Michigan wants very little to do with them.
If Amtrak owns the line isn't it kind of a moot point? They're not going to take away the trains, just raise some sound and fury over them and move on... I don't think the PACs have much to do with it-- no offense.
 
Yeah, but Michigan is not a big supporter of passenger rail. They don't care about the ridership, just the $ and ¢.
Actually, Michigan is a fairly good supporter of passenger rail. In addition to the Blue Water and Pere Marquette, the state has funded the improvements to Amtrak-owned Michigan Line to allow 95 mph running including a sophisticated signal system. Is it as much as rail supporters want it to be? Probably not.

The yearly battles over the rail funding are certainly a waste of time.
As far as that line Michigan puts in a little money but a lot of the money is from the Federal Govt since Amtrak owns the line from Kalamazoo to Porter.

As far as the State funded trains Michigan wants very little to do with them.
If the state doesn't want any to do with the trains, why have they lasted so long? I read the other day about the Pere Marquette's 25th anniversary, and Michigan helped fund the Port Huron train even during the International era. The International became the Blue Water after Michigan decided a Chicago-centric train was more valuable than the International's schedule (although the International should have remained as a national service train). Obviously there must be a majority of state legislators willing to fund the trains year after year. The seemingly annual fight over the appropriation is puzzling.
 
If the state doesn't want any to do with the trains, why have they lasted so long? I read the other day about the Pere Marquette's 25th anniversary, and Michigan helped fund the Port Huron train even during the International era. The International became the Blue Water after Michigan decided a Chicago-centric train was more valuable than the International's schedule (although the International should have remained as a national service train). Obviously there must be a majority of state legislators willing to fund the trains year after year. The seemingly annual fight over the appropriation is puzzling.
Currently, for state-funded trains, the states are required to pay 100% of the costs. That wasn't always the case. For YEARS, the federal government provided 80% of the funding while the states kicked in the other 20%. Around 2001 or 2002, the white house changed it to its present form. At that point, the conservatives in the Michigan legislature started crying for the funding to be cut. This in turn caused Matt to start Save Our Trains Michigan.

Hopefully, now that we have a smart guy in the white house again, things will go back to the way they were. I have a feeling that if they did, my "representatives" would stop whining.

Also, the state didn't change the operation from the International to the Blue Water. Amtrak did.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Currently, for state-funded trains, the states are required to pay 100% of the costs. That wasn't always the case.
Actually to be correct, the state is required to pay 100% of the costs not covered by the railfares collected for that route. So the better the route performs, the less the state has to pay.
 
If the state doesn't want any to do with the trains, why have they lasted so long? I read the other day about the Pere Marquette's 25th anniversary, and Michigan helped fund the Port Huron train even during the International era. The International became the Blue Water after Michigan decided a Chicago-centric train was more valuable than the International's schedule (although the International should have remained as a national service train). Obviously there must be a majority of state legislators willing to fund the trains year after year. The seemingly annual fight over the appropriation is puzzling.
Currently, for state-funded trains, the states are required to pay 100% of the costs. That wasn't always the case. For YEARS, the federal government provided 80% of the funding while the states kicked in the other 20%. Around 2001 or 2002, the white house changed it to its present form. At that point, the conservatives in the Michigan legislature started crying for the funding to be cut. This in turn caused Matt to start Save Our Trains Michigan.

Hopefully, now that we have a smart guy in the white house again, things will go back to the way they were. I have a feeling that if they did, my "representatives" would stop whining.

Also, the state didn't change the operation from the International to the Blue Water. Amtrak did.
Sorry for my misinformation on my last post. Somehow, I was under the impression that Michigan had something to do with the demise of the International. You're obviously closer to the situation than I am.
 
...Currently, for state-funded trains, the states are required to pay 100% of the costs. That wasn't always the case. For YEARS, the federal government provided 80% of the funding while the states kicked in the other 20%. Around 2001 or 2002, the white house changed it to its present form.
There was never an 80-20 cost share for the state contribution to supported Amtrak service. State-supported services always required 100% coverage of operational losses. The only exception is for services such as the Pacific Surfliner where there was an Amtrak-funded service prior to the state-funded expansion. In cases like that, Amtrak covers a pro-rated share of the losses based on the magnitude of the original Amtrak operation compared to the full state-supported operation.

What did change in the late 1990's was the formula by which Amtrak allocated costs to the state services. The change significantly increased the cost borne by the states for state-supported services.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top