The End of an Era for Los Angeles Metro

[Green Maned Lion]

NJT buys all their other equipment from foreign manufacturers. The ALPs were all fully built in Germany, and the PL42 is built in France. Delivered whole.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

CJ- do you work for Lynx or another bus company?

I know that LA Metro owns a ton of NABI 60-BRT buses... some pushing 10 years old at this point. They're still going strong with no problems (other than the normal problems a 10 year old vehicle has).

Nope, but I do get information about Lynx straight from employees who work there. I also get information about buses being delivered around the Orlando area as well. While that is true about LA Metro have a lot of NABI 60-BRTs, they have CNG models and not hybrids like we do.

By around 2016 or 17, we should be moving into CNG ourselves along with other systems in the state. Right now, our next order of buses are diesels, which are soon to arrive.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I've never understood the CNG fad. Diesel is much more efficient.

 

[Paulus]

I've never understood the CNG fad. Diesel is much more efficient.

Substantial reductions in particulate and CO emissions plus reduced fuel expenses. There's also the side benefit of CNG engines running significantly quieter than diesel engines.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

CNG is also cheaper per gallon. However, implementing it again (Lynx had it in 94) is a pain. It takes about 2-3 years to have a CNG fueling station running, on top of getting permits and all of that stuff.

Right now, we have 51 (subject to change) CNG buses on order. They will arrive whenever the CNG fueling station is up and running. The order includes six CNG motorcoaches from MCI.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I've never understood the CNG fad. Diesel is much more efficient.

Substantial reductions in particulate and CO emissions plus reduced fuel expenses. There's also the side benefit of CNG engines running significantly quieter than diesel engines.

My experience with fossil fuel prices is that chasing lowest cost is a capital waste. Natural gas and oil trade places every few years. The rest is utter nonsense. SCR diesel is practically as clean and much more durable. And INFINITELY safer.

 

[neroden]

The accumulated amount of time saved by low floor buses must be staggering.

Yes, it is. There's something else which isn't quite obvious: taking a wheelchair on a high-floor bus is such an enormous pain that wheelchair users will call paratransit, get a taxi, or drive a private car if they possibly can. On a low-floor bus, they'll actually ride the bus.
The costs of paratransit are exceedingly high, and everything that an agency can do to get people off of paratransit and into the regular system saves a bundle.

In LA, there are a lot of wheelchair-accessible taxis, but not all of them are.

NYC is doing an absolutely appalling job in every way on wheelchair access (basically no taxis in NYC are wheelchair-accessible, although a recent court settlement should change that) and is easily the worst major city in the US in this regard. And their lack of willingness to do the right thing costs them a lot of money.

 

[rickycourtney]

Remember that when LA Metro switched to CNG in the mid-1990s diesel powered vehicles belched out a thick cloud of black smoke every time the driver hit the accelerator. It was also a time when Los Angeles seemed to be perpetually covered by a thick layer of smog.

You're right California was instrumental in getting regulations put into place that forced Diesel engine manufacturers to clean up their act with things like SCR and EGR. But before those technologies matured, the state was instrumental in installing CNG fueling stations in the early 2000's. That's why many school buses, city work trucks, garbage trucks and city buses are all CNG powered. At about the same time the SCAQMD banned all cities from buying buses powered by diesel.

The result of all of this investment and regulation? Despite a still growing population... LA's air is markedly cleaner.

At this point... LA Metro could go back to buying "clean" diesel buses... but why? The agency and state has already made the investment, installing CNG fueling stations and removing diesel fueling stations. It would be really expensive to switch back to diesel for no major benefit.

 

[rickycourtney]

For wheelchair users low floor buses are also more reliable.

On a high floor bus if a wheelchair lift breaks... they're SOL. If they're waiting for a bus and the one that arrives has a broken lift... they're forced to wait for the next one. If they're on the bus... a repair crew has to be called out and the bus taken out of service on the spot for all passengers.

On a low floor bus if the wheelchair ramp breaks... the driver can simply operate it manually, continue on the route and write it up when they get back to base that night.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I don't want to say all diesel vehicles without EGR or SCR would pump out a thick cloud of smoke. The four-stroke Detroit 60 powered motorcoaches sure didn't. It appears that some transit drivers are too aggressive from having to drive in and out of congestion all the time, so when then see a gap, they stomp on the accelerator and pump out the black smoke. Or it was a two-stroke 6V92TA.

Altoona bus testing consistently shows far lower MPG in cities than on the highways. Frankly I think everybody should just buy E40LFR electrics for urban use. The regenerative braking would save energy.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I don't want to say all diesel vehicles without EGR or SCR would pump out a thick cloud of smoke. The four-stroke Detroit 60 powered motorcoaches sure didn't. It appears that some transit drivers are too aggressive from having to drive in and out of congestion all the time, so when then see a gap, they stomp on the accelerator and pump out the black smoke. Or it was a two-stroke 6V92TA.

Altoona bus testing consistently shows far lower MPG in cities than on the highways. Frankly I think everybody should just buy E40LFR electrics for urban use. The regenerative braking would save energy.

The E40LFR was discontinued last year.... Two stroke engines like the 6V92TA or 6V71N, depending on how you maintain them you can get buses that don't smoke at all. Of course not everyone maintained those engines to good standards and so, they belched out black smoke (or in some cases white smoke).

 

[Paulus]

I don't want to say all diesel vehicles without EGR or SCR would pump out a thick cloud of smoke. The four-stroke Detroit 60 powered motorcoaches sure didn't. It appears that some transit drivers are too aggressive from having to drive in and out of congestion all the time, so when then see a gap, they stomp on the accelerator and pump out the black smoke. Or it was a two-stroke 6V92TA.

Altoona bus testing consistently shows far lower MPG in cities than on the highways. Frankly I think everybody should just buy E40LFR electrics for urban use. The regenerative braking would save energy.

BEV is probably a better bet, adding trolley wires is going to be an expensive hassle with NIMBYs everywhere while you can just slap in a battery electric bus anywhere pretty much.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

BEV or trackless trolley, I don't really know, but at least better than driving fossil-fuel-burning vehicles in cites that are already heavily populated and with that poor MPG, doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

The two-strokes always burned more fuel and pumped out more pollution that the pre-EPA four-strokes. But then they added EGR and SCR so now the four-strokes burn fuel like two-strokes but have much less pollution. Seems like the Volvo D13 and Detroit 13 are quite good though.

 

[rickycourtney]

The E40LFR was discontinued last year but replaced by the functionally identical Xcelsior XT40.

Trolleybuses are great, but they have some pretty big drawbacks. It's a huge capital investment to string up all the wire, the coaches cost more (and don't last any longer) they struggled to take turns at more than 5 mph (making them best suited for straighter routes) they can't run express routes since it's difficult for trolley buses to pass each other. That being said trolley buses are unrivaled in their ability to climb hills and they have lower operating costs in the long run.

At the end of the day, what trolleybuses are really good at doing is running urban routes in extremely hilly areas. That's why they have been used extensively in Seattle and San Francisco.

Battery electric buses are showing promise for use in cities where the other benefits of trolley buses aren't needed.

There are currently two schools of thought with these buses… Some have fairly large batteries that are designed to last the entire day while others have fast charge systems that can give a bus enough juice to go 17 miles (the length of a normal run) in about 10 minutes (the length of a normal layover).

 

[CHamilton]

Many of us in Seattle like trolleybuses a lot, for lots of reasons. There's a lively discussion on the Facebook trolleybus group.

 

[railiner]

For wheelchair users low floor buses are also more reliable.

On a high floor bus if a wheelchair lift breaks... they're SOL. If they're waiting for a bus and the one that arrives has a broken lift... they're forced to wait for the next one. If they're on the bus... a repair crew has to be called out and the bus taken out of service on the spot for all passengers.

On a low floor bus if the wheelchair ramp breaks... the driver can simply operate it manually, continue on the route and write it up when they get back to base that night.

I agree with what you say.

As for being "SOL"....our buses have manual backups for the electric hydraulic pumps in case of failure. It is a pain to operate, but you can use a "jack handle" to manually raise, lower, extend, and retract our lifts. I don't know whether transit buses have this feature.....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Railiner, do you guys have Ricon, Braun, or Stewart & Stevenson lifts?

 

[railiner]

The 'J's have the Stewart and Stevenson. The Prevost's have the Ricon. Not sure about the Van Hool's....have to get back to you on those....and the D4505's, which I normally never see in The Port

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Is there any preference between them?

 

[railiner]

The Ricon's are much easier to operate....The S&S seem to jam up more frequently. And the J's have the "Q" type floor fastener's for the belts....also hard to operate....