The good ole days are back

[battalion51]

Gentelemen (and any Ladies who read this), I return from the front lines with mas informacion on the upcoming track curfew on the Nahunta and its effect on Silver Service. As of right now here's how things shake down: (keep in mind this is all subject to change, it is Amtrak we're talking about here folks)

Trains 98/92 and 91/97 will combine for the entirety of their journey between Miami and New York Penn Station. The train will feature (in something close to this order)

2 Ponies

2 Heritage Baggage

2 Heritage Dorms

4 Viewliner Sleepers

2 Heritage Diners

1/2 Amfleet II Lounge(s)

6-8 Amfleet II Coaches

One chunk of a train, eh? The train will be staffed by: 2 Engineers south of Southern Pines, 1 north of Southern Pines, 1 Conductor, 2 Assistant Conductors, 4 Sleeping Car Attendants, 2 Dining Car LSA's, 4 Waiters, 2 Chef's, 2 Food Specialists, 2 Lounge LSA's, and 3-4 Coach Attendants to round out the crew. As of right now it appears as though the TA's will work 4 days on/5 days off, while the LSA's will work 4 days on/4 days off, no confirmation on that yet.

Times oh how we love times. The train will leave Miami at 8:35 in the AM, arrival in New York at about 3 PM. On the flip side a 9:30 AM departure from New York and a 3:30 PM arrival in Miami.

As some of you might've figured out by now, the train will run via the S-Line through Columbia, SC and Raleigh, NC. The A-Line will be covered by the Palmetto bug (who's times remain unchanged). As of right now no bustitution for passengers going to destinations between Fayetteville and Yemmassee, SC since the Palmetto bug covers that route. (A Yemmassee stop will be added temporarily for the Palmetto.)

Now the moment each and everyone of you has been waiting for, effective dates. The new combined trains will go into effect for 91/97 leaving New York on April 25, and for 98/92 leaving Miami on April 26. The combination is expected to last approximately 9 weeks (until about the end of June or so, but it may affect 4th of July travel).

This is expected to be temporary folks, but since this is Amtrak we're talking about, well I'm not going to go there, expect everything to be back to normal in the middle of July.

I've said it once I'll say it again, this can still change at any point and is still subject to change. We should no exactly what things will be like once jobs go up for bid at the beginning of April, but until then this isn't set in stone. Also, for those curious, this information comes from someone who's pretty high on the food chain information wise, and is a very reliable source.

 

[Viewliner]

Sound's like an impressive consist, so long as it doesn't become a normal occurance. I'm kind of glad that my trip occurs a few weeks before this takes effect.

What should we call it? :lol: B)

 

[AlanB]

Interesting that they are altering the schedule and not adhearing to 91/92's normal schedule. One would think that they would have simply stayed on that schedule, instead of getting new times to run the S-line. Why confuse two sets of passengers with new times, just change 97/98's pax around.

I also see lots of double, maybe triple, spots coming up. Even Penn station can't platform that entire consist and they've probably got some of the longest platforms around, outside of Chicago. There is simply no way to put that many cars on the platform. Especially if there are two diners and two cafes in the middle.

 

[battalion51]

Double spots are going to be very, very popular. I think they're changing everyone's scheduling around so that they can allow for extra padding in the schedule to absorb these longer station stops. Also, for 91 they were going to need a schedule adjustment in order to get throguh the Nahunta. As far as the Northbound side goes, it'll lessen the blow to 98's passengers and help in the double track construction down here in SoFLA. How does it help Double Track consturction you ask? Well right now a mini curfew for Tri-Rail trains is in effect from 10 AM-3 PM between Boynton Beach and Mangonia Park. Since the combined consist will run through before the curfew begins, it'll give the foremen more uninterrupted time to do there work (only have to worry about 89 and 91/97 if by some miracle they are on time). So the change for 92 probably came at Tri-Rail's request, and just makes life easier for everyone (in the railroad world) in general.

 

[Steve4031]

This train will be something to look at when it goes around curves.

Question. What is "nahunta"?

Another question, what exactly is being done to the tracks that warrant this kind of change? I know that some fore of reconstruction must be taking place, but what are the details?

Thanks.

 

[battalion51]

Well the Nahunta is the name of the Subdivsion where all this Construction is taking place. Limits on it are to the North Savannah Terminal Sub, Ogeechee, GA (MP A512) and the Jacksonvile Terminal Sub Dinsmore, FL (MP A635). As far as what warrants this kind of curfew it's usually a sweep of the entire Sub to replace ties, rail, signals, add ballast, that sort of thing. A curfew is usually used when there is a lot of work to be done, that would be hard to do with trains running through at the same time (which is why there is now a mini-curfew in effect for Tri-Rail down here, so that they can work on the Double Track construction mostly uninterrupted). Keep in mind this Subdivision is a really big money maker for CSx with UPS trains, Auto Train, Auto Racks, and high priority Intermodal all hitting the Sub at some point (trains coming in from Chicago and Waycross use this Sub from Folkston to JAX). So it's in CSX's best interests to keep up the physical plant on this track.

 

[Foodman53]

Actually, Penn Station and all other Corridor stations can handle a 20 car consist , but this "supertrain" will be doing a lot of "two-steps", principally nearly all stops between Raleigh and Columbia, and in Florida, nearly every stop except for Jacksonville, Orlando, and Miami

A question....since so much sprawl(I meant "growth")...has taken place in that area specifically, I'm wondering if Amtrak has ever considered re-opening the never-opened "Poinciana" station, and close the antiquated Kissismmee station?

From the "Florida Funnel"

Foodman53

 

[Steve4031]

Thanks for the info. So it is really a relatively small section of track getting overhauled, about 200 miles from Savanah to Jacksonville.

It will be intersting to see what this section is like when it is done.

 

[battalion51]

Foodman, even Orlando is probably going to take a two time stop. Now granted, I've never tried to fit a train that size in there, but I believe those platforms are only 14 cars long. As far as the Poinciana station goes, well it's long gone.

 

[Amfleet]

Folks, I will acutally be riding on this train end the end of April back up to New York and then onto Boston if it will go into effect!

My one question, that wont affect me, is the 9:00am departure from New York. There's no train that leaves Boston that would make the connection and a good portion of passengers will be comming from Boston (at least that were to connect onto 97). There's a 5:00am Acela Express from Boston Monday-Friday that arrives at 8:48am into New York, but it's a very tight connection.

Now even though it's a long consist, Diners and Lounges can be tacked to the head end or the rear of the train with Coaches and Sleepers in the middle. 10-12 Sleepers and Coaches would be able to platform at many stations.

Lastly, will the train be taking the Star's or Meteor's route and if it doesn't serve one or the other, how will those passengers get to their destinations.

 

[AlanB]

My one question, that wont affect me, is the 9:00am departure from New York. There's no train that leaves Boston that would make the connection and a good portion of passengers will be comming from Boston (at least that were to connect onto 97). There's a 5:00am Acela Express from Boston Monday-Friday that arrives at 8:48am into New York, but it's a very tight connection.

If the 9:00 AM departure is true, then I'm guessing that they will be killing the Boston market (not the fast food joint). Something tells me however, that they'll probably settle on a departure time closer to 10:00 AM. The last thing Penn needs is a 20 car train sitting in the station during rush hour.

Now even though it's a long consist, Diners and Lounges can be tacked to the head end or the rear of the train with Coaches and Sleepers in the middle. 10-12 Sleepers and Coaches would be able to platform at many stations.

Not gonna happen, you don't want coach pax walking through the sleepers to reach the food service cars. Maybe if you put one cafe & one diner at each end, with the coaches & sleepers in the middle, that might work. But even then you still have to be on the lookout for coach pax in the sleepers.

Lastly, will the train be taking the Star's or Meteor's route and if it doesn't serve one or the other, how will those passengers get to their destinations.

As mentioned elsewhere in the topic, the train will be following the Star's route.

 

[Amfleet]

Now even though it's a long consist, Diners and Lounges can be tacked to the head end or the rear of the train with Coaches and Sleepers in the middle. 10-12 Sleepers and Coaches would be able to platform at many stations.

Not gonna happen, you don't want coach pax walking through the sleepers to reach the food service cars. Maybe if you put one cafe & one diner at each end, with the coaches & sleepers in the middle, that might work. But even then you still have to be on the lookout for coach pax in the sleepers.

I was thinking of something along lines of this.

P-42

P-42

Baggage

Baggage

Diner (Sleepers PAX only)

Sleeper

Sleeper

Sleeper

Sleeper

Diner (Sleeper and Coach PAX)

Lounge (Sleeper and Coach PAX)

Coach

Coach

Coach

Coach

Coach

Coach

Coach

Lounge (Coach PAX)

Dorm

Dorm

Also, if you assign the Coach passengers to the different coaches according to destination then many double spots will not be necessary. Espiecailly at small stations were Sleeper passengers don't get on or off.

 

[Foodman53]

B51....Since I'd not ridden a train south of Orlando in over 20 years. I honestly couldn't remember it's platform's length. For that same reason. I didn't know that the Poinciana station was gone. A colossal waste of money that never was used....right now, would probably be in the ideal location!!

In the day(1975 to 1980) we routinely ran some "monster size" trains. For the Meteor, Star, and Champion, an 18 to 20 car train wasn't at all unusual.

This was a typical line-up for the "Champion" #85/86, NYP/St. Pete:

2 SDP40PH

Mail/Baggage

Crew Dorm

Slumbercoach

10 56 seat Coaches(w/leg rest seats)

Lounge

2 Diner 48 seats(although the 2nd diner may sometimes only seat 36)

Sleeper 11 Double Rooms & 1st Class Lounge

3 10/6 Sleepers

This train's OBS crew was based in Jacksonville

....As you see, the coaches ran in the front part of the train...I'm assuming that the weight of the "Heritage" equipment would allow that.

The "Silver Star" was a little different story. You had sections that ran from both Miami and St. Petersburg, combining/splitting in Auburndale. Your lineup usually looked like this.

#91/92......MIA/NYP.....Crew based in Miami

1 SDP40PH

Baggage

Crew Dorm

2/3 10/6 Sleepers

11 Double Rooms/1st Class Lounge

6 56 seat Coaches w/leg rest seats

Lounge

Diner 48 seats

#81/82.....STP/NYP.....Crew based in Jacksonville

1 SDP40PH(normally became the "point" loco when the consist was combined)

Diner 48 seats(served as the lounge Auburndale/STP)

4 56 Seat Coaches w/leg rest seats

2 10/6 Sleepers

The train was joined at the diners, and was essentially run as two separate trains in one. During meals, if one diner was loaded, we'd pass thru to the other. The reservations computers actually "sold" this train as two separate ones.

Now, since the "Silver Meteor"(#83/84) was always crewed from Miami, and ran up the "S" line, JAX-MIA-JAX....I never crewed on it. It carried a similar consist to the "Champion", however, it didn't have the "Slumbercoach", replacing it with another 10/6. By 1975, the rounded end observation car was gone, but the glass roofed 'Sun Lounge" was still there.

Going back down "memory lane"

From the "Florida Funnel"

Foodman 53

 

[battalion51]

Jon, that type of consist seems very feasible, but leave it to the powers that be to make these decisions in the end. Now here's what I personally would do to help minimize dwell times:

P-42

P-42

Dorm

Dorm

Diner (11, 12, and 13 cars)

Sleeper

Sleeper

Sleeper

Sleeper

Diner (10 car and coach diner)

Lounge

Coach

Coach

Coach

Lounge

Coach

Coach

Coach

Coach

Baggage

Baggage

Now I realize this reverts back to the way the Star ran for a couple of months, and the Conductors hated it because the Conductor working the baggage traditionally handles sleepers as well. Well this isn't a traditional situation now is it? Here's the method to my madness. The vast majority of your dwell time in a station is spent loading baggage and coach passengers. So, when a station requires a double spot what I would do is this: Place 2 Conductors in the sleepers to spot up the first stop in the sleepers. Have one Conductor load the sleeping car passengers, while the second starts to lift tickets for the coach passengers. Once all the sleeping car passengers are up and ridin, have that first Conductor spot up the second stop for the coaches and baggage. Then you'll be able to spend the remainder of your dwell time where it takes the most time to load, coach and baggage.

 

[Guest]

Lastly, will the train be taking the Star's or Meteor's route and if it doesn't serve one or the other, how will those passengers get to their destinations.

Bat51 already answered that question. The train will traverse the Star route via Columbia and Raleigh. The Palmetto will serve those Meteor stops being its time remains unchanged!

 

[Joe]

If this new combined Silver Service train leaves New York City at 9:30 A.M., how are people traveling from the West supposed to connect with it? Passengers traveling on the Three Rivers and the Capitol Limited will require an overnight accomadation to connect with this new train.

Currently the Capitol Limited can connect with the Silver Star in Wash., D.C. and the Three Rivers can connect with the Silver Meteor in Philadelphia.

Joe

 

[National Limited]

Is this a for sure kind of thing? I'm traveling the Meteor in early June from Savannah to NYC and back. The changed time for the northbound train isn't so bad but the return--leaving from nyc in the morning instead of 7 in the evening--has made a mess of my plans. Will Amtrak allow me to change my return trip without penalty or am I stuck with this ticket?

 

[battalion51]

Because the times are changing by more than an hour you should be able to change your ticket or get a refund without penalty, but don't hold me to that.

 

[RidesOften]

This should be some train. TA'S call it "the supertrain". It is gona be something to see ,how this works out for all and particuler for the crews.. I heard it supposed to last 2 months.

First Diner is for sleeper and second for coach passengers.

Reminds me of auto train. Don't they have 2 dinners and one lounge?

Rides Often

FLA TRAINS ARE FUN!!!!

 

[AlanB]

Reminds me of auto train. Don't they have 2 dinners and one lounge?

Two lounges and two dinners, on extremely busy trips sometimes one can even find three diners.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I have been reading this the last few days and did not have anything original to offer. But something just occured to me----about the matter of double stops------something Amfleet said (I believe that was part of Amfleet's point, my apologies if not) about assigning coach passengers in such a way that those who had to get on and off during the night might be in the middle of the train, thus double stops not needed. The long distance passengers would be at the front and rear. Anyway......in the old days coach seats were genuinely specifically reserved in advance, just as sleeper space was and is. AND this was in the days well before computers---they kept up with this manually---subject to more mistakes than today, too, of course.

Thus, when one reserved coach space you were really assigned, say, car 5, seat 20 at the time you made your reservations. It was part of your ticket. Not something that happened as you boarded. That being the case it would have been even easier then than today to seat people where you really needed them for optimum convenience for them and for the railroad.

Actually, it was usually just the streamliners which had reserved coach seats. Non-streamlined, heavy weight trains usually did not have seat reservations. But they were not really the trains we are talking about. They often were heavy on head end cars and maybe just 4 or 5 passenger cars at the rear, so only one stop needed for them as well.

There certainly are memory lanes to this deal.

Back in the 50's the line up was like this:

ACL route, Florida Special(winter ony, all pullman)

East Coast Champion

West Coast Champion

Vacationer(from Boston)winter only (heavily pullman)

Miamiam,usually winter only (heavily pullman)

SAL route: Silver Meteor and the Silver Star

Orange Blossom Special(winter only, all pullman)

The Florida Special, the Champion(in the winter, esp the West Coast) and the Meteor would often be about 20 cars regularly assigned. The others might be about 14 or 15 cars but could easily add more. So very long trains, especially with pullmans, especially in the winter, was the norm.

The above trains were either streamlined (the Florida Special, the Champs and the Silver trains), or partially streamlined (the Miamian and the Vacationer). The Orange Blossom Special was a well kept up heavyweight (like a very classy, old-style hotel) .

There were shorter trains like the Havanna Special(ACL) and the Palmland(SAL) which were not that affected by the heavy pullman travel.

 

[battalion51]

Bill, what you said, to some degree, already occurs today. When the TA's sign up in Miami or New york before the trip they recieve a Train manifest (pronounced man-u-fest) which lists stop by stop (approximately) how many PAX's are getting on and off, and what stops they will be getting off at. From this a loading plan is devised where the TA decides who will be put in which car at what stop. This generally works pretty well grouping passengers for detraining ease.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Then perhaps that answers the problem of possible double-stopping all night long. If they will place the short haul passengers in the middle of the train, that might cut down on some of that.

 

[battalion51]

It's entirely possible that's the way it'll happen. Right now what usually happens is Long Hauls out of South Florida go in the 40 car. Short hauls (within Florida) usually go in 41 and what's left of 40. Carolina's/Virginia go into 42. In Orlando 40, 41, and 43 become long haul cars, with whatever shorts there are in 42. Generally 43 is Washington PAX's (so it can be closed off and cleaned after Washington) and then 40-42 is everything else. But there's no telling how they'll do things when they go to the big set. If it were me and the bag cars go in the back (like I think they should) I would put all the mediums in the rear coaches so that you only have to do a double spot if there is a rare middle of the night sleeper stop.

 

[tubaallen]

Yes, this would eliminate the need for double spots as far as passenger cars go. That is how we normally operate anyway...even the CZ is a bit longer than most of it's platforms, but we rarely need a double spot because it is planned out. However, what can cause the need for a double spot is if there is checked baggage at that location. Sometimes one spot is needed for bags, and another for passengers....and sometimes you run into the problem of passengers in sleepers...then you have no choice.