The Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle Daily Service

[Bob Dylan]

I find it absolutely fascinating nay mind boggling that some people actually think that Congress ought to be micromanaging Amtrak on a route by route basis. The last time they tried something akin to that we got Diner LIte and CCC. Congress is about the worst outfit to try to do anything of the sort. The only thing they seem to be able to manage effectively is the regular increments in their own salaries and benefits, if that.

Excellent post jis!I'll second and third and fourth etc. this, an Elephant is a mouse designed by Congress! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[jis]

If Congress choose the cheapest plan, LAX-ORL tri-weekly, then Amtrak can not stub this train.Amtrak is waiting on Congress, not UP.

Earlier this year I talked to one of Amtrak's VP's asking specifically if Congress had any role in the decision involving TE/Sunset west going daily, and he categorically said no, it did not. Since then nothing has changed, so it is very unlikely that Congress will choose LAX-NOL tri-weekly or anything else in the context of the LAX-SAS - NOL/CHI section.

In effect, Congress's involvement in the east is also specifically limited to how the new/restored service will get funded, which in turn depends on which option is chosen. Congress asked for a study and a plan and they got it, together with the price-tag. I would be very surprised if Congress gets back into the business of directing Amtrak about which trains to run and by implication which ones not to run, outside the immediate scope of the NOL - ORL context.

Of course Congress could choose to do anything else including directing Amtrak to discontinue the Empire Builder or the Capitol Limited and use its equipment to run Sunset Limited and all its various feeders. But I think the chances of a proverbial very hot place freezing over first is a greater likelihood.

See quote from the study below:

Section 226 also directs Amtrak to provide “any proposals for legislationnecessary to support such restoration of service.” Amtrak does not believe that

additional authorizing legislation is required to ensure that Amtrak can restore

service, given Amtrak’s existing rights of access to tracks and rail facilities under

the Rail Passenger Service Act. However, if policymakers decide that Amtrak

should implement one of the three service restoration options, legislative action

will be required to provide funding, above current PRIIA-authorized levels, for

ADA and other capital/mobilization costs and ongoing operating losses

associated with the option that is chosen.

The specific asks from Amtrak in the same document are as follows:

In light of these conclusions, Amtrak recommends that Congress determine ifpassenger rail service should be restored between New Orleans and Orlando;

and, if so;

1. Identify its preferred option for service restoration; and

2. Provide the additional funding for capital and ongoing operating

costs that will be required to implement that option.

Once these steps are taken, Amtrak will move quickly to initiate the actions

required for service restoration.

Again note that this is pertaining to just the NOL - ORL section, and has little bearing on the rest of Sunset, except of course for the fact that if the daily Sunset West plan goes into effect they would need to find the one Super Sleeper and Food Service cars necessary in addition to coaches for the overnight NOL - ORL tri-weekly train as in option 1. This does not appear to be an insurmountable problem.

Bottom line is Amtrak is not waiting for Congress to do something for executing on the proposed changes to NOL/CHI - SAS - LAX service. The holdup is somewhere else.

 

[Guest]

I find it absolutely fascinating nay mind boggling that some people actually think that Congress ought to be micromanaging Amtrak on a route by route basis. The last time they tried something akin to that we got Diner LIte and CCC. Congress is about the worst outfit to try to do anything of the sort. The only thing they seem to be able to manage effectively is the regular increments in their own salaries and benefits, if that.

Congress is already micromanaging Amtrak. The TE was brought back because of congress. Florida members

of Congress wants the pre-katrina SSL. Lets not cover our eyes because we don't like it.

I still believe Congress is the key to this awful stub train. Lets wait to see how it plays out.

 

[AlanB]

I still believe Congress is the key to this awful stub train. Lets wait to see how it plays out.

The Stub train is totally off Congress' radar, they aren't considering it at all and Amtrak is not waiting for Congress. I can promise you that.

Again while it's unlikely, Congress could, if upon deciding that they want a full length Sunset, order Amtrak to undo the Stub train should it actually happen. But that would be the only way that Congress would ever factor into the decision under discussion here.

The Stub train is not being held up because Amtrak is waiting for Congress!

 

[Guest]

I still believe Congress is the key to this awful stub train. Lets wait to see how it plays out.

The Stub train is totally off Congress' radar, they aren't considering it at all and Amtrak is not waiting for Congress. I can promise you that.

Again while it's unlikely, Congress could, if upon deciding that they want a full length Sunset, order Amtrak to undo the Stub train should it actually happen. But that would be the only way that Congress would ever factor into the decision under discussion here.

The Stub train is not being held up because Amtrak is waiting for Congress!

I'm not saying Congress is specifically deciding on the stub train plan. I'm saying Amtrak will not act on this

plan while the possibilty congress could order the LAX-ORL train. Amtrak will not undercut congress by doing

this plan while congress is deciding on the other 3 plans.

 

[AlanB]

I still believe Congress is the key to this awful stub train. Lets wait to see how it plays out.

The Stub train is totally off Congress' radar, they aren't considering it at all and Amtrak is not waiting for Congress. I can promise you that.

Again while it's unlikely, Congress could, if upon deciding that they want a full length Sunset, order Amtrak to undo the Stub train should it actually happen. But that would be the only way that Congress would ever factor into the decision under discussion here.

The Stub train is not being held up because Amtrak is waiting for Congress!

I'm not saying Congress is specifically deciding on the stub train plan. I'm saying Amtrak will not act on this

plan while the possibilty congress could order the LAX-ORL train. Amtrak will not undercut congress by doing

this plan while congress is deciding on the other 3 plans.

Amtrak wanted this Stub train in the Spring TT and the fact that Congress is considering what to do with the eastern Sunset had nothing to do with why the Stubie isn't in the newly released TT. There are other issues that are causing the delay in getting things running, but the possibility that they might undercut Congress isn't one of those issues. Amtrak will do this as soon as certain issues are resolved without regard to where Congress is in its consideration of Sunset east.

The only way that Amtrak won't do this plan is if Congress does act before Amtrak can resolve the other issues and Congress' decision is to have a full length Sunset.

But the fact that Congress has not yet decided on Sunset East has nothing to do with the delays in getting the Sunset West plans into effect. Amtrak isn't waiting because of that pending Congressional decision on Sunset East.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Black vans and spys again. UP is not holding this bad plan up, Congress must decide on the 3 plans.

Congress has nothing to do with this. Amtrak is a private corporation that happens to be owned by the Department of Transportation, and as such has presidentially appointed board members. The only thing Congress can do is preface funding on various mandates. If Amtrak manages to find its own funding source, they could thumb their nose at Congress, technically.

This sounds like a politican. Nobody said Amtrak is purposely trying to kill service to this region.

You certainly implied it strongly enough.

If SAS-NOL trip is $32 per person, how is it possible to average $74 per person. FUZZY MATH.

Current bucket says $86. Also, I did no math. I'll leave math to those who care enough about making an argument with the Rock of Gibraltar to expend the brain energy.

If that is not pot calling the kettle black.

Correct. It isn't.

Amtrak plan to start up several new trains after purchase and repairs. I am willing to tolerate tri-weekly untilthose new/rebuild coaches are ready. We been waiting 39 years.

There is fallacy in your logic. That fallacy is that the options are either this stub train or having the Sunset Limited as is. The Sunset in its current form is a financial embarrassment, and a very legitimate argument on the folly of funding long distance trains. The amount of money it loses per passenger is absolutely a joke.

You see this as killing the Sunset. How do you know that this isn't the Sunset's last chance? How do you know it won't be discontinued in its current form the next time a Republican grabs hold of the helm?

Nobody knows...We all hear different rumors. Yours don't out weight mine.

Maybe not in most cases, but in this case the rumor you got is like a rumor our Government is going to have sensible transportation policy this time round. Its just ludicrous.

I find it absolutely fascinating nay mind boggling that some people actually think that Congress ought to be micromanaging Amtrak on a route by route basis. The last time they tried something akin to that we got Diner LIte and CCC. Congress is about the worst outfit to try to do anything of the sort. The only thing they seem to be able to manage effectively is the regular increments in their own salaries and benefits, if that.

Amen.

I still believe Congress is the key to this awful I'm not saying Congress is specifically deciding on the stub train plan. I'm saying Amtrak will not act on this

plan while the possibilty congress could order the LAX-ORL train. Amtrak will not undercut congress by doing

this plan while congress is deciding on the other 3 plans.

Amtrak has historically done things to prevent Congress from hurting it through Congresses own stupidity. Amtrak has to respond to Congresses funding allotments, but they don't have to snap to like an actual government agency. The only thing Congress controls are the purse strings. Congress can deny this plan by saying they will cut funding if Amtrak goes through with it, but Congress does not need to authorize it.

 

[jis]

I'm not saying Congress is specifically deciding on the stub train plan. I'm saying Amtrak will not act on this plan while the possibilty congress could order the LAX-ORL train. Amtrak will not undercut congress by doing

this plan while congress is deciding on the other 3 plans.

This plan does not necessarily undercut any of the three options for east of NOL. All that needs to be done to satisfy option 1 is to run an overnight train with sleeping and food service three times a week between NOL and ORL, which connects with whatever comes in from the west.

So arguably, the premise of your argument is wrong.

Congress is already micromanaging Amtrak. The TE was brought back because of congress. Florida membersof Congress wants the pre-katrina SSL. Lets not cover our eyes because we don't like it.

Yes, Congress was doing so. It also brought us CCC and Diner Lite as I mentioned in my message, and way back when it even brought us Harley's Rocket aka the Hilltopper. It has decidedly backed off from the hands on approach of late, and I, for the sake of Amtrak's health, hope it remains that way. The mere lack of Sunset East is not a good reason to get Congress involved in day to day train management. Congress's involvement should stay limited setting overall policies and funding such adequately. So just ordering Amtrak to run a train without funding such would be inappropriate for Congress, not that they might not do so anyway. Afterall unbridled egos generally lead to idiocy.

Can you imagine what will happen if Congress includes in some bill language to the effect that "Amtrak thanks for the reports on Sunset East, Pioneer, Desert Wind and North Coast Hiawatha. Now we direct you to run these and we believe you can already do so without any further funding. What do you suppose Amtrak is going to do, when it has specific direction to run just these 4 trains. Which trains do you suppose they would discontinue to be able to run these?

As far as SSL East goes, the only alternative that can be done immediately without acquiring any new equipment is the three times a week train NOL ORL, whether it be as a continuation or a separate train. So options 2 and 3 are essentially off the table for at least 4 years anyway. So in effect, anything that one wants done now, is basically option 1, and everyone knows it. In spite of that this has not stopped Amtrak to plan the changes in Sunset West and Eagle. That should be a huge hint to anyone that is paying attention. And frankly, from what I gather, the bigger fish that Florida wants to fry are the HSR and Amtrak on FEC and SunRail, with SSL East coming in a distant 4th at present.

 

[Guest]

The only way that Amtrak won't do this plan is if Congress does act before Amtrak can resolve the other issues and Congress' decision is to have a full length Sunset.

Which is exactly what is going to happen. The never ending unresolve issue excuse until after Congress decides.

 

[NativeSon5859]

The only way that Amtrak won't do this plan is if Congress does act before Amtrak can resolve the other issues and Congress' decision is to have a full length Sunset.

Which is exactly what is going to happen. The never ending unresolve issue excuse until after Congress decides.

Probably not. In fact I'd put money on that not happening. Both of these plans are TOTALLY independent of each other. UP could approve this tomorrow.

 

[AlanB]

The only way that Amtrak won't do this plan is if Congress does act before Amtrak can resolve the other issues and Congress' decision is to have a full length Sunset.

Which is exactly what is going to happen. The never ending unresolve issue excuse until after Congress decides.

I give up; you're just not getting it.

Believe what you want, but I can assure you that what's holding this plan up has nothing to do with waiting for Congress to decide on Sunset East.

 

[jis]

What I find interesting is that the one that came up with:

Black vans and spys again. UP is not holding this bad plan up

now fervently believes that there are Congressional black vans and spies involved and refuses to believe what an Amtrak VP has stated categorically (that Congress is not involved). C'est la vie

 

[George Harris]

. . . it even brought us Harley's Rocket aka the Hilltopper.

At least at that time Congress did demand that Amtrak run trains. All they ask now is that they bleed away money on doing studies that tend to be at best, much sound and fury, signifying nothing.

 

[jis]

. . . it even brought us Harley's Rocket aka the Hilltopper.

At least at that time Congress did demand that Amtrak run trains. All they ask now is that they bleed away money on doing studies that tend to be at best, much sound and fury, signifying nothing.

That would seem to the perfect thing to do when they perpetually underfund even the sound and fury :lol:

As I said, the only thing they can actually manage positively is their own salaries and benefits :lol:

 

[George Harris]

. . . it even brought us Harley's Rocket aka the Hilltopper.

At least at that time Congress did demand that Amtrak run trains. All they ask now is that they bleed away money on doing studies that tend to be at best, much sound and fury, signifying nothing.

That would seem to the perfect thing to do when they perpetually underfund even the sound and fury :lol:

As I said, the only thing they can actually manage positively is their own salaries and benefits :lol:

Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct.

 

[Guest]

The only way that Amtrak won't do this plan is if Congress does act before Amtrak can resolve the other issues and Congress' decision is to have a full length Sunset.

Which is exactly what is going to happen. The never ending unresolve issue excuse until after Congress decides.

Probably not. In fact I'd put money on that not happening. Both of these plans are TOTALLY independent of each other. UP could approve this tomorrow.

Then I'll eat crow. Lets see what happens.

 

[Josiah]

As one from Houston, I actually had a lot of concerns about this decision myself, but I just recently read an article that answered a lot of my concerns that also seemed to be raised here:

http://www.railpac.org/2009/06/11/sunset-l...keting-meeting/

It dates back to about this time last year, but nonetheless answers the various questions that I had when I first read Rosenwald's comments in the August issue of "Trains" Magazine. As to some of the things written in this thread, I'd like to offer my two cents if that's okay.

Stubbing the train and splitting it to Chicago instead of from leaves a LOT of room for expansion, esp. if a daily market can be established between SAS and NOL. (Perhaps one of the many towns passed between SAS and HOS could finally get a station, such as Schulenburg, the halfway mark between SAS and HOS). Such expansions could just as easily mean that we get an SAS to Orlando or Miami train, pending Rosenwald's decision on the means Amtrak wants to use to restore that service. This would strengthen their desire to make the train premier since if they didn't have to transfer cars, the layover could be very minimal (like the 40 min layover in STL currently). For now, knowing that business class will exist (hopefully in the form of Horizon/Amfleet level instead of just a Superliner coach they'll call business class) is good enough because that's the only way I'd travel (after the horrible experience of someone lighting up Mary Jane and stinking up the whole coach).

The downside I see is, in lieu the fact that I do rely on this to get to and from college in Missouri (Moberly, an hour south of LAP and an hour north of JEF on US-63), because the stubbing is from LAX, timing might prevent me from taking the train all the way home. However, if the timing is right, I guess the only other downside would be those that were formerly served in Bryan-College Station, Corsicana, and Nacogdoches no longer having an option (albeit if Amtrak is planning on extending the Heartland Flyer to either Newton and/or KCY, I suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea to consider whether it'd be feasible to extend it southward from Fort Worth and pick up the slack there, perhaps even giving Houston a line to Galveston (although word has it that the Gulf Coast Freight Railroad Company may actually have that ready for commuter service by 2012 alongside a northward jaunt to Hempstead). (I will also admit that I've been mulling around with an idea that would run the Sunset DAL-HOS-NOL, but have not figured out how to solve a lack of HOS-SAS under that scenario).

Two other things mentioned in the article have also got my attention.

First, a later departure for the Sunset to connect with the Starlight is fine, except for the fact that the past schedules have shown this to create horrible service time in SAS, which I think would defeat the overall purpose of "premier". Based on the current timetable in print, I highly doubt they'd do a 12 hour reversal of the times, but then again perhaps the concept of watching the sun setting while looking towards San Francisco or something could prove me wrong. It has been about 6 years since I was last on the Starlight, a trip I'll remember because the Great Dome was deadheading, and we were 12 hours late because of mud slides, detours, and what not, allowing us to look at Mt. Shasta in daylight, and arriving in LAX at 9a. Point of that: I have no means to speak of the terrain between San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara, but if it's scenic enough, I suppose a sunrise over that terrain and it shinning on the Pacific might also prove me wrong, too.

The other is the idea to restore CoNO to its original Viewliner setup, minus the dome cars and everything, in order to get more equipment. I'm not certain how that would give any substantial gain given that the current CoNO consist is similar to the Eagle, minus the lounge car, so a dorm sleeper, sleeper, CCC, and 2-3 coaches depending on demand. Then again, I guess it depends on the number of sets run, and my math says at most three (one set from NOL, one set already en route to NOL, and one set already en route that I would surmise turns around because of the 12 split in NB arrival and SB departure), but I've been known to be wrong. What would be nice would be to see a more convenient connection time with the stub service in NOL in order to access the trains that head to MS & TN, and to connect HOS with D.C. and the eastern seaboard.

 

[Steve4031]

The other is the idea to restore CoNO to its original Viewliner setup, minus the dome cars and everything, in order to get more equipment. I'm not certain how that would give any substantial gain given that the current CoNO consist is similar to the Eagle, minus the lounge car, so a dorm sleeper, sleeper, CCC, and 2-3 coaches depending on demand. Then again, I guess it depends on the number of sets run, and my math says at most three (one set from NOL, one set already en route to NOL, and one set already en route that I would surmise turns around because of the 12 split in NB arrival and SB departure), but I've been known to be wrong. What would be nice would be to see a more convenient connection time with the stub service in NOL in order to access the trains that head to MS & TN, and to connect HOS with D.C. and the eastern seaboard.

FYI, the CoNO never operated with viewliners. What you are referring to was the days when it operated with Heritage fleet equipment. Heritage fleet cars were streamliner cars built in the 1940s and 1950s that were converted to head end power in the early 1980s. Most of these cars were removed from service because of the toilets emptying directly onto the tracks. A congressional mandate required that the cars be remodeled to have wasted products kept in tanks like in the superliners and Amfleets. This was too expensive, so Amtrak took them out of service. The only remaining cars Heritage fleet cars are the single level diners on the east coast trains.

Currently, Amtrak does not have enough viewliner sleeping cars to operate the CoNOL with single level equipment.

 

[Eric S]

However, if the timing is right, I guess the only other downside would be those that were formerly served in Bryan-College Station, Corsicana, and Nacogdoches no longer having an option (albeit if Amtrak is planning on extending the Heartland Flyer to either Newton and/or KCY, I suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea to consider whether it'd be feasible to extend it southward from Fort Worth and pick up the slack there, perhaps even giving Houston a line to Galveston (although word has it that the Gulf Coast Freight Railroad Company may actually have that ready for commuter service by 2012 alongside a northward jaunt to Hempstead).

I'm somewhat confused by the reference to Bryan-College Station and Corsicana passengers. They haven't had Amtrak service since the Houston section of the Texas Eagle was cancelled in, what, the early- or mid-1990s.

 

[Josiah]

FYI, the CoNO never operated with viewliners. What you are referring to was the days when it operated with Heritage fleet equipment. Heritage fleet cars were streamliner cars built in the 1940s and 1950s that were converted to head end power in the early 1980s. Most of these cars were removed from service because of the toilets emptying directly onto the tracks. A congressional mandate required that the cars be remodeled to have wasted products kept in tanks like in the superliners and Amfleets. This was too expensive, so Amtrak took them out of service. The only remaining cars Heritage fleet cars are the single level diners on the east coast trains.
Currently, Amtrak does not have enough viewliner sleeping cars to operate the CoNOL with single level equipment.

I blame it on being up late, but you're correct. I knew what I was thinking, and said something different. Thank you very much for the correction.

I'm somewhat confused by the reference to Bryan-College Station and Corsicana passengers. They haven't had Amtrak service since the Houston section of the Texas Eagle was cancelled in, what, the early- or mid-1990s.

My apologies for the confusion. I needed to specify that I was thinking of what would happen should they eliminate the bus that makes a stop in Nacogdoches, which gives at least those from Bryan-College Station a locale to drive to if need be. It's about the same time in transit to either Houston or Nacogdoches because of the immense amount of traffic that traverses 290 on any given day (meaning I would take the maps.yahoo.com transit time of 1:44 with a grain of salt as sometimes an extra 40 min can be tacked trying to get to 610). Eliminate the bus, not only do we still have Corsicana and Bryan-College Station out in the cold as they have been for the past 15 years, but now we leave out another city, too, via the cut of bus service under Amtrak.

 

[Donctor]

The other is the idea to restore CoNO to its original Viewliner setup, minus the dome cars and everything, in order to get more equipment. I'm not certain how that would give any substantial gain given that the current CoNO consist is similar to the Eagle, minus the lounge car, so a dorm sleeper, sleeper, CCC, and 2-3 coaches depending on demand. Then again, I guess it depends on the number of sets run, and my math says at most three (one set from NOL, one set already en route to NOL, and one set already en route that I would surmise turns around because of the 12 split in NB arrival and SB departure), but I've been known to be wrong. What would be nice would be to see a more convenient connection time with the stub service in NOL in order to access the trains that head to MS & TN, and to connect HOS with D.C. and the eastern seaboard.

As Steve4031 pointed out, the City was Heritage, not Viewliner. And by the end, it was not an impressive train. In September 1992, the Horizon dinette stopped operating south of Carbondale, which left the Amfleet dinette as the only food service car for most of the route. (Why? After many Amtrak's dining cars failed inspection in '92, the dinettes were needed elsewhere.) The CDL dinette was lost soon after it became a short-turn car. Historical consist notes are at the bottom of this post.

Viewliners will almost certainly not go to the CONO. There's no reason to use single-level equipment when there isn't a clearance issue. There are no extra single-level long-distance coaches in the fleet. Besides, the Viewliners will go to trains that actually need them.

–––Consist Notes–––

The CONO was not an impressive train, hence its nickname. By mid-to-late 1993, I believe the "typical" consist was:

P40DC

Heritage Baggage

Horizon Coach [CHI-CDL]

Heritage Coach [KCY-CDL-NOL; River Cities]

Heritage Coach

Heritage Dome Coach

Heritage Coach

Amfleet II Lounge (serving as a dinette)

Heritage Sleeper

The order was eventually reversed for ease of switching at CDL.

The aforementioned equipment couldn't make it through the winter, and one equipment set became bi-level on February 16, 1994. The other two followed on March 3.

From what I understand, when the City first went "Superliner" it looked like:

P40

P40

Heritage Baggage

Hi-Level Trans-Dorm

Hi-Level or Superliner I Coach*

Hi-Level or Superliner I Coach*

Hi-Level or Superliner I Diner

Superliner I Sleeper

* At least one coach was supposed to be a Superliner with lower-level (ADA) seating.

The first consist became bi-level on February 16, 1994. The other two became bi-level on March 3, 1994.

Later in March or April (date unknown), an extra coach was assigned to each consist.

In May, the Hi-Level diners were removed–reassigned to the Desert Wind/Pioneer–and replaced with a Superliner I diner and Hi-Level lounge for all three consists.

In June, the dining car crews started cooking some of the food in the diner.

On October 30, 1994, Superliner I lounges were assigned to the City.

What I don't know is where the River Cities coach was placed when the train became bi-level. I know the thru-car was a Heritage coach until the end, which came on November 4, 1994. That may mean that the River Cities coach was a Hi-Level, but that wouldn't make much sense given that the RC was part of the Mule.

 

[Steve4031]

I believe the river cities stopped running before the superliners. I rode this once from New Orleans to KC, and it was a great trip. The river cities car was the last car on the train. I had the car to myself, accept for the crew for most of the trip. In Centraila, it was detached from the CNOL, and ran with an engine to STL, where it was attached to the Kansas City Mule. I was the only passenger. There were some dead heading crew, and the operating crew. The platform end of the car was at the rear, so when we were coming into STL, I was allowed out on the platform by the crew. They saw me looking out the rear window, and I was invited out. This was cool.

 

[Donctor]

I believe the river cities stopped running before the superliners. I rode this once from New Orleans to KC, and it was a great trip. The river cities car was the last car on the train. I had the car to myself, accept for the crew for most of the trip. In Centraila, it was detached from the CNOL, and ran with an engine to STL, where it was attached to the Kansas City Mule. I was the only passenger. There were some dead heading crew, and the operating crew. The platform end of the car was at the rear, so when we were coming into STL, I was allowed out on the platform by the crew. They saw me looking out the rear window, and I was invited out. This was cool.

Nice. I thought the RC was gone before Superliners, but Amtrak In the Heartland said otherwise. I do believe one City consist went bi-level on 02/16/94, and the other two on 03/03/94.