Thruway Trains

[Dinker]

I recently noticed that Amtrak will sell you a through ticket to certain NJT stops on an NJT Train (a "Thruway Train"). This is an excellent idea and I hope they manage to come to similar agreements with other commuter railways. Does anyone know how long this agreement with NJT has been around? It seems only to work for NJT stops on the Atlantic City line but I see no reason why it should not be expanded to the entire system.

 

[AlanB]

To my knowledge Amtrak only has an agreement with NJT for a "thruway" connection. The reason for that, as well as the reason that it's only for stations on the AC line, is the fact that Amtrak originally ran the service on the AC line. In fact, Amtrak spent some big bucks for the repairs to that line to permit the original Amtrak service, now NJT service.

On the other hand, while one can't use Amtrak tickets on other commuter services, one can use commuter tickets on several Amtrak lines, including VRE and Caltrans.

 

[Dinker]

To my knowledge Amtrak only has an agreement with NJT for a "thruway" connection. The reason for that, as well as the reason that it's only for stations on the AC line, is the fact that Amtrak originally ran the service on the AC line. In fact, Amtrak spent some big bucks for the repairs to that line to permit the original Amtrak service, now NJT service.

If Amtrak's reservation system can handle one NJT line, I don't see why all it couldn't handle all NJT lines. THe ability to be ticketed through to a local stop should help both Amtrak and the commuter agency to attract customers and simplify the lives of customers. Logistically, it doesn't too complicated; I'm not sure what should stop it. If I want to travel from Boston to Morristown, NJ, why not just sell me one ticket for it? Transfers to and from Metro-North would be a bit more complicated for obvious reasons, but Amtrak does sell tickets requiring a "self-transfer" in Boston, so the complication here should not be fatal.

 

[AlanB]

To my knowledge Amtrak only has an agreement with NJT for a "thruway" connection. The reason for that, as well as the reason that it's only for stations on the AC line, is the fact that Amtrak originally ran the service on the AC line. In fact, Amtrak spent some big bucks for the repairs to that line to permit the original Amtrak service, now NJT service.

If Amtrak's reservation system can handle one NJT line, I don't see why all it couldn't handle all NJT lines. THe ability to be ticketed through to a local stop should help both Amtrak and the commuter agency to attract customers and simplify the lives of customers. Logistically, it doesn't too complicated; I'm not sure what should stop it. If I want to travel from Boston to Morristown, NJ, why not just sell me one ticket for it? Transfers to and from Metro-North would be a bit more complicated for obvious reasons, but Amtrak does sell tickets requiring a "self-transfer" in Boston, so the complication here should not be fatal.

It's not a matter of, "can the computer system handle things". It's a matter of who gets how much money from the ticket that Amtrak sells. In the case of the AC line, since Amtrak fixed up that line, I'm guessing that when they turned things over to NJT, that was part of the agreement that NJT would cross honor Amtrak tickets. Yet another factor might be that NJT does not maintain a ticket office in Philly, where the AC line originates. There are only NJT ticket machines there, so having Amtrak issue tickets might actually be helpful to NJT.

We can't even get the various local NYC transit agencies to play ball with one another by and large, although PATH is an exception. If/when NJT, Metro North, and the LIRR start selling through tickets, then maybe we can expect Amtrak to start doing the same.

Next, it's not one ticket. Amtrak issues two tickets, one for the Amtrak train, one for the NJT train.

Finally, with regard to the Boston transfer, all one gets is a ticket that basically says "you must find a way to transfer from South Station to North, or vice versa." The ticket that Amtrak issues when one connects to/from the Downeaster is not valid for any form of transportation within the Boston area, unless there has been a recent change that I haven't read about.

 

[mkellerm]

There is at least one other "thruway train" that I know of: the ACE route from Stockton to San Jose is the connection for two southbound and one northbound San Joaquin. This is a new arrangement; unfortunately it still requires a bus transfer between the two stations in Stockton. If and when ACE expands, I would expect them to pick up all of the thruway service on this route.

On the other hand, even with the Rail2Rail program in southern California, the only option that the Amtrak website gives you for travel from Santa Barbara to San Bernadino is on the Chief, despite the numerous Metrolink trains covering that route. I'm surprised that Caltrans hasn't worked to fix that.

 

[TransAtlantic]

There are several Pacific Surfliner trains throughout the week that make stops at Metrolink stations; these stops don't appear on the Amtrak schedules, but are noted on the Metrolink schedules as being provided by Amtrak. Stops include Norwalk, Orange, Laguna Niguel/Mission Viejo, and once a week at San Clemente Pier (which does serve Amtrak, but there is at least one extra non-Amtrak-schedule stop each way each week)

 

[AlanB]

There are several Pacific Surfliner trains throughout the week that make stops at Metrolink stations; these stops don't appear on the Amtrak schedules, but are noted on the Metrolink schedules as being provided by Amtrak. Stops include Norwalk, Orange, Laguna Niguel/Mission Viejo, and once a week at San Clemente Pier (which does serve Amtrak, but there is at least one extra non-Amtrak-schedule stop each way each week)

That is indeed correct.

However, that isn't the same thing as having an Amtrak ticket and boarding a Metrolink train to reach one of those stops. In the above case you are boarding an Amtrak train, with a Metrolink ticket, that just happens to stop at a Metrolink station by agreement with Amtrak & Metrolink.

Now Metrolink does actually allow passengers with Amtrak tickets to ride their trains at no additional charge via the rail2rail program between normal Amtrak stations. However even that isn't quite the same as the example Dinker cited, where one is boarding a train run by a commuter agency to travel to a station that Amtrak does not serve. For example, you cannot buy an Amtrak ticket to Norwalk, even though a few Surfliner's do stop at that station, since it is not an official Amtrak station. You can only ride to/from that station on Amtrak, using a Metrolink ticket.

 

[The Metropolitan]

As I recall, when setting up a profile on Amtrak.com for ticket purchasing purposes, the option that allows you to set your "home" station also includes a number of commuter train stations. I do remember Baltimore Camden as being one of them. Not sure how it kicks out itineraries for your search when you're starting from a non Amtrak station.

*EDIT* - Upon double checking - the profile for Amtrak.com does not offer non-Amtrak commuter train destinations as a home station, BUT Amtrak Guest Rewards profiles do. On the Maryland list below, some stations are passed by NEC trains (and Odenton's long high platforms could probably even accomodate the Silver Star!) and a few others are passed by the Capitol Limited. Only Baltimore-Camden is not passed by any Amtrak train or Greyhound bus.

 

[TransAtlantic]

There are several Pacific Surfliner trains throughout the week that make stops at Metrolink stations; these stops don't appear on the Amtrak schedules, but are noted on the Metrolink schedules as being provided by Amtrak. Stops include Norwalk, Orange, Laguna Niguel/Mission Viejo, and once a week at San Clemente Pier (which does serve Amtrak, but there is at least one extra non-Amtrak-schedule stop each way each week)

That is indeed correct.

However, that isn't the same thing as having an Amtrak ticket and boarding a Metrolink train to reach one of those stops. In the above case you are boarding an Amtrak train, with a Metrolink ticket, that just happens to stop at a Metrolink station by agreement with Amtrak & Metrolink.

Now Metrolink does actually allow passengers with Amtrak tickets to ride their trains at no additional charge via the rail2rail program between normal Amtrak stations. However even that isn't quite the same as the example Dinker cited, where one is boarding a train run by a commuter agency to travel to a station that Amtrak does not serve. For example, you cannot buy an Amtrak ticket to Norwalk, even though a few Surfliner's do stop at that station, since it is not an official Amtrak station. You can only ride to/from that station on Amtrak, using a Metrolink ticket.

But you can do that between LAX and Van Nuys, that is, you can, with an Amtrak ticket (though it won't be ticketed to that station) ride to - for example - downtown Burbank station (NOT an Amtrak stop, ever) on a Metrolink train. It's more limited perhaps than the east coast examples, but it's still similar.

 

[Dinker]

AlanB, you're probably right about much of what you say. I hope you don't find it combative of me to go point-by-point and comment on your post, though. (If you do, sorry in advance).

It's not a matter of, "can the computer system handle things". It's a matter of who gets how much money from the ticket that Amtrak sells.

If you look at the way Europe works - where most railways are able to sell tickets on any other (and we're talking about many different national carriers, taxes, currencies, classes of accomodations even alphabets), I find this excuse somewhat underwhelming. It may indeed be the source of the problem in the US, but it's really quite a pathetic excuse.

More locally, we also see similar agreements between Amtrak and many bus operators as well as between SEPTA and NJT.

We can't even get the various local NYC transit agencies to play ball with one another by and large, although PATH is an exception. If/when NJT, Metro North, and the LIRR start selling through tickets, then maybe we can expect Amtrak to start doing the same.

I don't imagine this would anywhere near as beneficial (through-ticketing on MTA and NJT services) as through-ticketing on Amtrak to these services. People transferring from Metro-North to NJT are, by and large, frequent riders who know how the system works, know what services are available, know where to buy their tickets etc. If this were any great boon in through-ticketing in commute services, I'd imagine Metro-North and LIRR would have worked this out by now, seeing that they are run by the same entity. Well, who knows, perhaps with ESA, they will be more of an impetus to do so.

Next, it's not one ticket. Amtrak issues two tickets, one for the Amtrak train, one for the NJT train.

Yes, two pieces of paper but only one reservation, only one charge to your credit card, only website to check for timetables.

Finally, with regard to the Boston transfer, all one gets is a ticket that basically says "you must find a way to transfer from South Station to North, or vice versa." The ticket that Amtrak issues when one connects to/from the Downeaster is not valid for any form of transportation within the Boston area, unless there has been a recent change that I haven't read about.

Right, I realize this. I'm just saying that if they don't mind doing this for a passenger travelling from New York to Portland, ME - they could also do it for a passenger travelling from Washington, DC to White Plains. Amtrak doesn't seem to have anything per se against expecting passengers to effect a self-transfer (and well they shouldn't, passengers aren't stupid and if you look at Paris or Moscow or most other major European cities, self-transfers are quite common).

 

[PRR 60]

To my knowledge Amtrak only has an agreement with NJT for a "thruway" connection. The reason for that, as well as the reason that it's only for stations on the AC line, is the fact that Amtrak originally ran the service on the AC line. In fact, Amtrak spent some big bucks for the repairs to that line to permit the original Amtrak service, now NJT service. ...

The rebuilding of the former PRSL Atlantic City Line was not funded by Amtrak. The funding came from a $30 million dollar direct grant from the US DOT plus $75 million from the State of New Jersey and Atlantic City Interests. Amtrak performed the work, but others paid. The line is owned by NJT.

Part of the AC Line deal was that Amtrak would break even on providing the service. They never did, and never even came close to meeting original ridership projections. When Amtrak pulled the plug on its service in 1995, interconnectivity with the Amtrak system was retained by the joint ticketing arrangement. In my opinion, this was pushed by NJ interests as a way to maximize the considerable investment NJ made in the line.

 

[Rafi]

As I recall, when setting up a profile on Amtrak.com for ticket purchasing purposes, the option that allows you to set your "home" station also includes a number of commuter train stations. I do remember Baltimore Camden as being one of them. Not sure how it kicks out itineraries for your search when you're starting from a non Amtrak station.
*EDIT* - Upon double checking - the profile for Amtrak.com does not offer non-Amtrak commuter train destinations as a home station, BUT Amtrak Guest Rewards profiles do. On the Maryland list below, some stations are passed by NEC trains (and Odenton's long high platforms could probably even accomodate the Silver Star!) and a few others are passed by the Capitol Limited. Only Baltimore-Camden is not passed by any Amtrak train or Greyhound bus.

You know, I've noticed this too, and found it fascinating. My guess is that they just dumped a list of stations out of Arrow when compiling this menu initially, and since Amtrak uses Arrow to ticket MARC passengers at Amtrak-staffed stations, these stations are listed. That's just my best guess, however, and I realize a chink in that theory may be the fact that not all MARC stations (especially most Camden stations) are listed there.

On a similar note (without digressing too much), many of the train information "flipper" boards (at least in the northeast) have cards displaying origins and destinations that Amtrak never (as far as I know) serviced. For example, the Baltimore Penn board has a flap that says "Cape Cod" and another that says Memphis. Just watch as the board updates—you'll see it flash by very quickly. Weird, huh?

 

[AlanB]

On a similar note (without digressing too much), many of the train information "flipper" boards (at least in the northeast) have cards displaying origins and destinations that Amtrak never (as far as I know) serviced. For example, the Baltimore Penn board has a flap that says "Cape Cod" and another that says Memphis. Just watch as the board updates—you'll see it flash by very quickly. Weird, huh?

Don't many of those boards pre-date Amtrak? If so, that would explain why they have destinations that Amtrak doesn't service.

 

[The Metropolitan]

sorry for continuing the tangent but...

Memphis?!?

There's one I wouldn't have expected to see in BAL. That blind may have since been replaced (or perhaps it only remains in one or two rows) since you saw it though, as I thought I had inventoried the listing of Baltimore's flap board origins/destinations as:

NEW YORK

WASHINGTON

NEWPORT NEWS

BOSTON

PERRYVILLE

NEWARK*

CHICAGO

TRENTON*

PHILADELPHIA*

JACKSONVILLE*

SAVANNAH

MONTREAL*

STAMFORD

NEW HAVEN*

ATLANTA*

BALTIMORE

ORLANDO*

WILMINGTON*

TAMPA*

RICHMOND

CAPE COD*

CHARLOTTE

ST. PETERSBURG*

MIAMI

VERMONT*

ST. ALBANS VT

NEW ORLEANS

ATLANTIC CITY*

SPRINGFIELD

(* indicates destinations that would not be in regular use)

Interestingly absent is MOBILE for the corresponding section of the Gulf Breeze that ran in the early to mid-90's.

Alan, I'm pretty sure the board that is there now is reasonably recent (I would however love to know its vintage). I seem to recall a flapboard always being there since the early 80's when I first began to come through the station as a kid. Yet, there are at least three destinations that certainly seem absent from it which would have been used regularly in the earlier years: ST. LOUIS (National Limited), HARRISBURG (PRR Local), and BUFFALO (PRR Buffalo Day Express).

 

[gswager]

It would be a good thing for Amtrak to use as an express train that stops on stations that have high passenger counts or major hub centers while the commuter trains would stop at every stations. For those who wants to board on express train but in small stations would have to board on commuter train and then deboarded at stations that is served by express trains.

 

[Dinker]

It would be a good thing for Amtrak to use as an express train that stops on stations that have high passenger counts or major hub centers while the commuter trains would stop at every stations. For those who wants to board on express train but in small stations would have to board on commuter train and then deboarded at stations that is served by express trains.

Right, and I'd particularly hope Amtrak could negotiate this on the commuter routes that are operated by them (MARC, SLE, etc.) or are operated on their tracks. Here's a case where Amtrak already has at least a solid relationship with the commuter agency with, I'd hope, some degree of trust.

 

[JAChooChoo]

.........On a similar note (without digressing too much), many of the train information "flipper" boards (at least in the northeast) have cards displaying origins and destinations that Amtrak never (as far as I know) serviced. For example, the Baltimore Penn board has a flap that says "Cape Cod" and another that says Memphis. Just watch as the board updates—you'll see it flash by very quickly. Weird, huh?

Actually in the late 1980's and early 1990's Amtrak operated The Cape Codder to Hyannis via Attleboro. I'm not sure if the west end was NYP or WAS. Train 234 operated on Fridays and 235 on Sundays. I believe that for a time there was an Hyannis - Providence Saturday round trip.