VIA Rail Long Distance (LD) and Inter-Regional fleet replacement

[Amtrak25]

It does not even look like Superliner-I's can be replaced by the early 2030's if they were thinking of acquiring them, so all VIA can do for long distance is cherry-pick some corridor HEP-II coaches, or maybe import some more 2nd hand equipment from Continental Europe, the UK, or Australia (the most North American-like) for the Ocean and Skeena. Some Amfleet-I and Horizons should be available before the decade is out. They did stick a couple of roomette modules in a couple of Amfleet-1 coaches in the 1970's.

Ontario Northland did overhaul some of their ex-GO cars for the Moosonee service. Do they really need all 16 (?) of them for that ?

EXO retired their 700-Series Comet-like cars in 2022. Can they stick a couple of chemical restrooms and roomette modules to be dorm cars for the Canadian and Ocean, relieving pressure on their Budd sleepers ? Canadians seem pretty good at stripping cars to their frames and rebuilding or repurposing them.

 

[Urban Sky]

Does Canada have local-content laws like we have in the States? If not, perhaps VIA could just order stuff from a foreign manufacture who might be able to deliver in a more timely manner.

No, and the CETA (Canada-EU Trade Agreement) forbids it to errect such trade barriers. However, its national regulator, Transport Canada, usually aligns with its American counterpart (FRA), which all but disqualifies designs from outside North America…

 

[Urban Sky]

It does not even look like Superliner-I's can be replaced by the early 2030's if they were thinking of acquiring them, so all VIA can do for long distance is cherry-pick some corridor HEP-II coaches, or maybe import some more 2nd hand equipment from Continental Europe, the UK, or Australia (the most North American-like) for the Ocean and Skeena. Some Amfleet-I and Horizons should be available before the decade is out. They did stick a couple of roomette modules in a couple of Amfleet-1 coaches in the 1970's.

Ontario Northland did overhaul some of their ex-GO cars for the Moosonee service. Do they really need all 16 (?) of them for that ?

EXO retired their 700-Series Comet-like cars in 2022. Can they stick a couple of chemical restrooms and roomette modules to be dorm cars for the Canadian and Ocean, relieving pressure on their Budd sleepers ?

Acquiring sleeper cars second-hand from Amtrak is one thing, but completely rebuilding cars which have been discarded and were never built for North American specs is an extremely poor use of taxpayer money. Canada should focus on getting the RFP out and the contract signed as soon as possible and then hope that TC is willing to show some flexibility once the replacement is actually under construction…

 

[railiner]

It does not even look like Superliner-I's can be replaced by the early 2030's if they were thinking of acquiring them, so all VIA can do for long distance is cherry-pick some corridor HEP-II coaches, or maybe import some more 2nd hand equipment from Continental Europe, the UK, or Australia (the most North American-like) for the Ocean and Skeena. Some Amfleet-I and Horizons should be available before the decade is out. They did stick a couple of roomette modules in a couple of Amfleet-1 coaches in the 1970's.

Ontario Northland did overhaul some of their ex-GO cars for the Moosonee service. Do they really need all 16 (?) of them for that ?

EXO retired their 700-Series Comet-like cars in 2022. Can they stick a couple of chemical restrooms and roomette modules to be dorm cars for the Canadian and Ocean, relieving pressure on their Budd sleepers ? Canadians seem pretty good at stripping cars to their frames and rebuilding or repurposing them.

The Economy Rooms, (nowadays called Roomettes), installed in a pair of Amfleet I coaches for the former Shenandoah Washington/Cincinnati train had to me modified to fit the curvature of the Amfleet, by removing the top bunk.
Perhaps the former Comet cars straight-sided profile might allow the two bunk standard Roomette module to fit in....?

 

[Urban Sky]

The Economy Rooms, (nowadays called Roomettes), installed in a pair of Amfleet I coaches for the former Shenandoah Washington/Cincinnati train had to me modified to fit the curvature of the Amfleet, by removing the top bunk.
Perhaps the former Comet cars straight-sided profile might allow the two bunk standard Roomette module to fit in....?

Again: VIA might need ready-to-deploy Sleeper cars which may act as a stopgap for a few years until the new fleet (hopefully) arrives, not another fleet of cars which first needs massive investments before it is available for service…

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

How many train sets does the Canadian require?

What is the typical length of this train?

 

[Urban Sky]

How many train sets does the Canadian require?

3 sets (a fourth set was required in summer when the third weekly frequency operated, but it has last operated in 2019).

What is the typical length of this train?

Approximately 10 cars in winter and 20 cars in summer…

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

Remember we’re all thinking of Amtrak timeframes. Not timeframes the rest of the world operates with. Tren Maya got its Alstrom order delivered in about 2-3 years as an example. Regardless I have a feeling Via’s order will involve Amtrak in some fashion.

A small piggy back order of whatever Amtrak decides on.

Or

Refurbishing old Amtrak castaway equipment, Superliners or even Viewliners that are deemed as excess with the new order. Via has gone this route before with basically everything they operate LD wise. The original refurbished equipment they inherited or the Renaissance equipment they got from Europe.

Or

Inheriting their pick of Amtrak equipment if Amtrak shutters some/all LD routes with a change in the Senate/House funding associated with a new anti Amtrak administration. The Senate majority is razor thin as it is now counterbalancing the current House shut down budget.

The last option isn’t likely but at the same time still a possibility unfortunately.

 

[Urban Sky]

Remember we’re all thinking of Amtrak timeframes. Not timeframes the rest of the world operates with.

For the purposes of fleet renewals, VIA is faced by the same constraints as Amtrak, not those “the rest of the world operates with”.

Tren Maya got its Alstrom order delivered in about 2-3 years as an example.

Given that Tren Maya doesn’t (to the best of my knowledge) share tracks with freight and is not regulated by TC or the FRA, they are not bound to procuring FRA/TC-compliant rolling stock.

Regardless I have a feeling Via’s order will involve Amtrak in some fashion.

A small piggy back order of whatever Amtrak decides on.

Given that Amtrak is the only other North American railroad operating sleeper trains and that VIA simply doesn’t have the time to wait for a supplier to establish a production line, piggybacking on Amtrak’s procurement choices is pretty much the only viable way to have a new fleet in place by 2035…

Refurbishing old Amtrak castaway equipment, Superliners or even Viewliners that are deemed as excess with the new order. Via has gone this route before with basically everything they operate LD wise. The original refurbished equipment they inherited or the Renaissance equipment they got from Europe.

Or

Inheriting their pick of Amtrak equipment if Amtrak shutters some/all LD routes with a change in the Senate/House funding associated with a new anti Amtrak administration. The Senate majority is razor thin as it is now counterbalancing the current House shut down budget.

The last option isn’t likely but at the same time still a possibility unfortunately.

I sincerely hope it won’t come to either scenario and that VIA can still somehow squeeze enough years out of their 1950s HEP fleet until the new fleet hopefully arrives…

 

[cirdan]

Because at this point there are so many orders for Siemens if you want their stuff its going to be a wait. And if you rush and order the cars before design is done you get the mistake Amtrak made with airo cafe cars which pushed the project back 6 months and cost nearly 50M.

Surely Canada is not bound by "Buy America" requirements. They could source cars from Europe or China or India even where I guess lead times are far shorter.

Given that Tren Maya doesn’t (to the best of my knowledge) share tracks with freight and is not regulated by TC or the FRA, they are not bound to procuring FRA/TC-compliant rolling stock.

Not sure about Tren Maya. I recall that during the planning phase it was said that there would be freight, and that this was being touted as an opportunity for economic development on the peninsula. I can't say if this was actually ever followed up on. I'm also not sure if all ROW used for Tren Maya was truly abandoned before construction began, or if there might have been some residual freight on some sections. The news stories at the time were all a bit vague in their wording. So quite possibly there is some form of freight there. Most rail maps prior to then did show a line going onto the peninsula, but of course this does not mean this line was actually still in use. All that said, there is another line in Mexico, the Transoceanic line, that recently introduced passenger service onto an existing and established freight corridor with minimal modifications to track. This service uses second hand ex UK HST sets dating to the 1970s and early 1980s (trains that, despite their age, are still very much a benchmark of comfort to this day). I guess in Mexico requirements are less strict, even if they nominally need to adhere to North American standards to assure interoperability.

 

[Urban Sky]

Surely Canada is not bound by "Buy America" requirements. They could source cars from Europe or China or India even where I guess lead times are far shorter.

If you want to procure rolling stock for use on Canadian mainlines, it needs to adher to FRA/TC crashworthiness standards. No active production line in Europe, China or India produces night train rolling stock complying with these standards (as none of their regular customers requires them), therefore, these suppliers are irrelevant for VIA (i.e., because of what they produce and not where).

I guess in Mexico requirements are less strict, even if they nominally need to adhere to North American standards to assure interoperability.

To ensure interoperability with North American freight equipment, Mexico needs to accept and accommodate North American standards, but doesn’t need to adher to them for rolling stock which is only to be used thousands of miles away from American (or Canadian) soil (let alone: tracks). That’s very different from the regulatory situation in Canada and therefore, it is not possible for VIA to copy whatever Tren Maya is doing, regardless of how much and how often you insist they should do just what…

 

[Amtrak25]

The Economy Rooms, (nowadays called Roomettes), installed in a pair of Amfleet I coaches for the former Shenandoah Washington/Cincinnati train had to me modified to fit the curvature of the Amfleet, by removing the top bunk.
Perhaps the former Comet cars straight-sided profile might allow the two bunk standard Roomette module to fit in....?

That's why I brought up the "EXO retired their 700-Series Comet-like cars". Think out of the box for anything that is track worthy and of North American design. The EXO MR-90 MU's are going to be scrapped, but I don't think anything can be done with them to make them useful.

Procurement, supply chain, and debugging the manufacturing process with its own defects in North America makes this all proceed at a glacial pace after the RFP, which isn't even done. NY-MTA M-9A MU procurement is back to square one after Kawasaki was 5 years late with the LIRR M-9's. Expect at least another 5 years for that to happen while the LIRR Budd M-3 fleet is used gently and falling apart, similar situation as VIA Rail. Then look at Alstom with the Acela-II and CAF with the Viewliners. Siemens' Carolina plant is to do Airos. There is quite a conga line of equipment to produce without VIA Rail and Amtrak LD.

 

[west point]

Surely Canada is not bound by "Buy America" requirements. They could source cars from Europe or China or India even where I guess lead times are far shorter.

That might be a bad idea. VIA would surely want equipment that will meet FRA requirements for transborder operation. Buy America will not apply of course.

 

[jis]

Surely Canada is not bound by "Buy America" requirements. They could source cars from Europe or China or India even where I guess lead times are far shorter.

Given the extremely aggressive growth of IR passenger service set by the Modi government, and the goal of replacing the old ICF fleet completely in the next few year while adding hundreds of Vande Bharat Expresses of various configuration over the next five years, which will require something like 8,000 cars to be inducted every year, I doubt that Indian Railways manufacturing facilities and associated private companies will have the capacity to find the resources to address what will be a small and mostly nonremunerative market in North America requiring a lot of resource to meet a different set of regulatory requirements in the near future. There is also the potential problem of the scope of the derivative work license that Alstom has given to IR for manufacturing and distributing the LHB cars, which may be limited to Asia and Africa, and not cover Americas at present.

 

[lordsigma]

Given the relatively small potatoes nature of VIA's requirements their best bet as far as economies of scale is probably to piggy back on Amtrak's LD procurement if the efforts are compatible - at least on the basics - they'll obviously have their own specifications on the soft goods and products.

 

[Urban Sky]

Given the relatively small potatoes nature of VIA's requirements their best bet as far as economies of scale is probably to piggy back on Amtrak's LD procurement if the efforts are compatible - at least on the basics - they'll obviously have their own specifications on the soft goods and products.

Ontario Northland piggybacking on VIA’s order for another 3 shorter (3-car instead of 5-car) trainsets comes to mind as a model…

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Could Stadler make cars for VIA? If VIA wants the Canadian to be an experience they will need really nice cars like the Colorado Railcar / Stadler Bi-Levels. Those Venture cars ain't gonna sell tickets.

 

[GDRRiley]

Could Stadler make cars for VIA? If VIA wants the Canadian to be an experience they will need really nice cars like the Colorado Railcar / Stadler Bi-Levels. Those Venture cars ain't gonna sell tickets.

Stadler could easily enough, they've done sleeper FLIRTS and coaches before as well as a few different window styles and a NA compatible design.
The Bi levels they made for RM were built in Europe, I suspect their 18ft2in height and 89.75ft long length might present a minor issue.
We don't know how much factory capacity they have an what upcoming orders they are scoping out.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Stadler could easily enough, they've done sleeper FLIRTS and coaches before as well as a few different window styles and a NA compatible design.
The Bi levels they made for RM were built in Europe, I suspect their 18ft2in height and 89.75ft long length might present a minor issue.

ah... there might be some clearances East of Jasper... didn't really think about that.

 

[GDRRiley]

ah... there might be some clearances East of Jasper... didn't really think about that.

Yeah I assume it can fit plate F which would mean cutting a foot off the car.

 

[Fenu S]

ah... there might be some clearances East of Jasper... didn't really think about that.

Other than possible clearance issues to the east, is there any other reason VIA can't copy what RM has? They are very modern and provide a tourist experience and just need some sleeper cars. Are they more expensive or have some long distance issues I'm missing? Even if VIA isn't interested in the bi-level, you would think they might like the single level cars.

 

[Urban Sky]

Other than possible clearance issues to the east, is there any other reason VIA can't copy what RM has? They are very modern and provide a tourist experience and just need some sleeper cars. Are they more expensive or have some long distance issues I'm missing? Even if VIA isn't interested in the bi-level, you would think they might like the single level cars.

For RM, which is basically a tourist bus on steel wheels, these all-seats Panorama cars are the only car passengers ever see from the inside, whereas for a rolling hotel like the Canadian, they only serve an auxiliary lounge-and-observation function, as the Sleeper cars themselves are the main revenue cars. Procurement is therefore driven by what Sleeper cars are available, with Panorama cars playing only a secondary role.

That said, VIA’s ex-BCR Panorama cars did fit everywhere in its network (I was lucky enough to ride one of them from Vancouver all the way to Toronto) and I can imagine that VIA would be happy to procure something like that again - if a TC/FRA-compliant design is offered by a suitable supplier:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-Level_Dome

 

[crescent-zephyr]

For RM, which is basically a tourist bus on steel wheels

What a strange way to describe one of the nicest trains operating in the world.

 

[Urban Sky]

What a strange way to describe one of the nicest trains operating in the world.

I was describing the function of these cars, not the quality of services, amenities (or views) offered on board of them…

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I was describing the function of these cars, not the quality of services, amenities (or views) offered on board of them…

Well they function as day coaches, full-service dining cars, and lounges with viewing area.

Of course, that's how they are physically used on the RM and Alaska RR, they could be set up with alternate interiors as needed.