Viewliner II Part 2: Dining Car Production, Delivery, Speculation

[StriderGDM]

Why would we even consider replacing Superliners with single-level trains?

 

[Lonestar648]

What Amtrak needs to do is order more Superliners now so maybe they will start arriving by 2020 and beyond.

 

[StriderGDM]

Let's agree that Amtrak needs to order a LOT of equipment, but right now, the only stuff on order that will carry passengers is the new Acela II trainsets and Viewliners.

The bi-level order is a mess and we can't count on that for anything for at least 1-2 years, if ever.

And the Viewliners are good for what they are, but not necessarily great coaches.

 

[Lonestar648]

This mess is most likely making the Anti-Amtrak crew very happy.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Why would we even consider replacing Superliners with single-level trains?

It seems that a new order for single-level cars would be easier politically than TWO new orders simultaneously, one for single-level equipment AND one for bi-levels.

And the new single-level order could be more than one-for-one replacements.

With enuff new single-level cars, presumably Amtrak could turn a couple of the current Superliner trains into single-level trains. For example, the D.C.-CHI Capitol Ltd and the NOLA-CHI City of New Orleans could be candidates. The handful of cars used on the Oklahoma City-Ft Worth Heartland Flyer and those used on the NOLA-San Antonio "Sunset Shuttle" segment (left over after the Texas Eagle combines with the San Antonio-L.A. segment of the Sunset Ltd.) would add to the transfer pool.

Then the displaced Superliner equipment could go out West where trains are often sold out. In this way, there could be relief to the Western Superliner trains while they wait their turn for a big order for bi-level equipment.

Well, that's the theory.

But someone said that adding the Capitol's three train sets and the CONO's sets would not be quite enuff for the added sets needed to go daily with the San Antonio-L.A. Sunset Ltd/Texas Eagle. I'm not sure that's true, but I can't say it isn't. (Don't recall if they counted the Heartland Flyer's set, or the cars used NOLA-San Antonio. Still, that's cutting things close, extra coaches to work with but no sleepers or diners.)

I don't know how easily an equipment change would work, given the different platform heights and all. But there is a good reason to consider the possibility.

 

[tommylicious]

Onto which lines have the most recent pair of Viewliner II Diners been deployed?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Onto which lines have the most recent pair of Viewliner II Diners been deployed?

The most recent pair just went to Miami. I think it takes about 2 weeks before they're ready to be sent back north.

I believe the only two trains with new diners are the Silver Meteor and the Crescent.

 

[Steve4031]

Using view liners on 29/30 and 58/59 makes sense imho. I think it would be politically and logistically easier for Amtrak to add to the order of view liners. Iirc there is an option to add cars to the viewfinder order.

I've seen bedroom rates lowered than roomette rates on both trains. I think one additional sleeper on each consist would meet the demand for roomettes and bedrooms on these routes.

 

[PVD]

The bag dorms will contribute some sale able rooms to a couple of single level trains. A single level CONO might enable a protect VL in New Orleans to serve both it and the Crescent.

 

[west point]

Using superliner vs using single level cars has several items that have to be considered..

1. Is it correct that 4 AM-2s = 3 SLs both sleeper and coach ?

2. Platform lengths may come into play as single levels may require an additional station stop ?

3. Maintenance crews at stations such as CLT & ATL may not have training on SLs ? And MEM for single levels ?

4. Same for OBS crews ? and conductors ?

5. Ignoring #2 - 4 The CSX Sand Patch derailment certainly could have been mitigated if Crescent and Capitol could have swapped consists allowing for a single level Capitol detour. But how could Amtrak handled the stranded SL consist going CHI <> Pittsburg other than putting it on the Cardinal ? Suspect Cardinal Single levels not enough for Capitol ?

Now if Amtrak had enough equipment the day trip WASH <> ATL could be superliners ?

 

[neroden]

On the Capitol Limited, the bedrooms are routinely underused; there is too high a supply of bedrooms for the demand, and it's not great financially. It would probably be better off with Viewliners. I can only speak to the CL in this regard. There should be no training problem as all CL stations, except a couple in West Virginia, handle single-level traffic.

 

[PVD]

Although only anecdotal, my experiences on the CL have born that out. I've snagged bedrooms on the CL at prices comparable to roomettes (especially as opposed to the LSL)

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Horizon cars were originally intended to be converted into long distance coaches once the new bilevels were delivered but that may be far off in the future....

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

On the Capitol Limited, the bedrooms are routinely underused; there is too high a supply of bedrooms for the demand, and it's not great financially. It would probably be better off with Viewliners. I can only speak to the CL in this regard. There should be no training problem as all CL stations, except a couple in West Virginia, handle single-level traffic.

Actually, are 6 stations on the CL that handle no other Amtrak trains, and therefore no single-level Amtrak passengers cars. These are Alliance (OH), Connellsville (PA), Cumberland (MD), Martinsburg (WV), Harpers Ferry (WV), and Rockville (MD). In comparison, the CONO has 12. I understand that in a certain situation conversion might make sense, but to me it would be a clear downgrade so I would not support such a move unless I can be assured that extra single-level cars will be available while bi-levels will not. I agree that single-level coaches and lounges are next to be replaced, but I doubt there will be enough funding for extra cars than are needed for a complete replacement of Amfleet IIs.
Another thing to consider is the Midwest bi-level order. Nothing is guaranteed at this point, but if the contract is re-bid and bi-levels are once again pursued I think it could present an opportunity for Amtrak to get involved via a modified design for long-distance trains. Again, this is far from a certainty from even occurring but if it did it could present an opportunity for a bi-level long distance order.

After new Midwest cars are received, the Horizons will be available but I don't think they should be modified for LD trains. They are almost 30 years old as is. Corridor trains are also the main area of growth for Amtrak in recent years. I believe they would be better used in their current form for either additional frequencies on Midwest corridors or new corridor trains elsewhere. The Blue Water, Pere Marquette, and Hoosier State could all use another frequency or more. In addition, the Quad Cities and Black Hawk will need equipment from somewhere, assuming they are implemented. The cars could also be used for new corridor routes such as Chicago-Cleveland and maybe Pittsburgh, Chicago-St. Paul, and a Hoosier State extension to Cincinnati. Outside of the Midwest, New Orleans-Baton Rouge and New Orleans-Mobile are under consideration; numerous other states could also use then if they change politically.

 

[west point]

Brian -- Agree that Horizons need to be allocated to corridor trains but they will need major renovations including a solution for the freezing that occurs each winter on them.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

... Horizons will need major renovations including a solution for the freezing that occurs each winter on them.

Send them all down South.

Replace the Superliners on the Heartland Flyer Oklahoma City-Ft Worth. New service New Orleans-Biloxi-Mobile is already in the plan. NOLA-Baton Rouge corridor service. After the Sunset Ltd combines with the Texas Eagle and goes daily, we'll need Horizons for NOLA-Lafayette-Beaumont-Houston-San Antonio.

Consider NOLA-Baton Rouge-Alexandria-Shreveport-Dallas-Ft Worth. NOLA-Biloxi-Mobile-Montgomery-Birmingham (cross platform connection to the Crescent). Maybe Nashville-Memphis-Jackson-Monroe-Shreveport-Dallas-Ft Worth.

Possibly replace the Superliner equipment on the City of New Orleans. Horizons on the CONO would get cold in Chicago, but with a quick turnaround, they'd be south of the Ohio and thawing out the next day.

 

[PVD]

If the funding path is not cleared to allow a major car replacement to move forward, they just may have to go plan B which involves major overhauls, systems modernization, and life extension projects. A cushion of cars to put to work with such as the Horizons would be invaluable, while quantities of Amfleets are out of service for the long periods that would be required. .

 

[KnightRail]

It is a disservice to everyone who comes to this thread for Viewliner II news to have to read through countless pages of off-topic posts. Want to talk funding, equipment utilization, hypotheticals, etc., for the love of CAF please take it to another thread. The topic is Viewliner II delivery and production... acceptance, and operational status. So actually on topic, there was a time this past weekend when there was a goose egg for total in revenue service.

 

[neroden]

On the Capitol Limited, the bedrooms are routinely underused; there is too high a supply of bedrooms for the demand, and it's not great financially. It would probably be better off with Viewliners. I can only speak to the CL in this regard. There should be no training problem as all CL stations, except a couple in West Virginia, handle single-level traffic.

Actually, are 6 stations on the CL that handle no other trains, and therefore no single-level Amtrak passengers cars. These are Alliance (OH), Connellsville (PA), Cumberland (MD), Martinsburg (WV), Harpers Ferry (WV), and Rockville (MD).

You're right that I forgot one station (and misplaced the state of two others).

However, Martinsburg (WV), Harpers Ferry (WV) and Rockville (MD) DO handle single-level trains. MARC Train, to be precise.

In fact there are only THREE stations on the CL which handle no other trains: Alliance (OH), Connellsville (PA), and Cumberland (MD). Three stations. Total.

 

[neroden]

It is a disservice to everyone who comes to this thread for Viewliner II news to have to read through countless pages of off-topic posts. Want to talk funding, equipment utilization, hypotheticals, etc., for the love of CAF please take it to another thread. The topic is Viewliner II delivery and production... acceptance, and operational status. So actually on topic, there was a time this past weekend when there was a goose egg for total in revenue service.

OK, what is going wrong. Did the subcontractor completely mess up the HVAC? That seems to have been the problem which was taking them out of service?

 

[KnightRail]

It is a disservice to everyone who comes to this thread for Viewliner II news to have to read through countless pages of off-topic posts. Want to talk funding, equipment utilization, hypotheticals, etc., for the love of CAF please take it to another thread. The topic is Viewliner II delivery and production... acceptance, and operational status. So actually on topic, there was a time this past weekend when there was a goose egg for total in revenue service.

OK, what is going wrong. Did the subcontractor completely mess up the HVAC? That seems to have been the problem which was taking them out of service?

¡Caliente! The bright side is this is the time of year to test and adjust the systems in actual summer operating conditions.

 

[west point]

There are so many possibilities of the HVAC problems that anything is just speculation. Broadly

1. CAF messed up something

2. HVAC sub contractor messed up something

3. Some unintended consequence of marrying the units.

4.. Heat output of dinning car calculated wrong.

Until problem is disclosed we need to just wait !

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

On the Capitol Limited, the bedrooms are routinely underused; there is too high a supply of bedrooms for the demand, and it's not great financially. It would probably be better off with Viewliners. I can only speak to the CL in this regard. There should be no training problem as all CL stations, except a couple in West Virginia, handle single-level traffic.

Actually, are 6 stations on the CL that handle no other trains, and therefore no single-level Amtrak passengers cars. These are Alliance (OH), Connellsville (PA), Cumberland (MD), Martinsburg (WV), Harpers Ferry (WV), and Rockville (MD).

You're right that I forgot one station (and misplaced the state of two others).However, Martinsburg (WV), Harpers Ferry (WV) and Rockville (MD) DO handle single-level trains. MARC Train, to be precise.

In fact there are only THREE stations on the CL which handle no other trains: Alliance (OH), Connellsville (PA), and Cumberland (MD). Three stations. Total.

You're right and I knew that; I meant to write "no other Amtrak trains". I rembered to write that during the second part: "no single-level Amtrak passenger cars". Is the MARC service relevant to the training required for single-level Amtrak service? The MARC service is also irrelevant to the potential for too short of platforms.

... Horizons will need major renovations including a solution for the freezing that occurs each winter on them.

Send them all down South.
Replace the Superliners on the Heartland Flyer Oklahoma City-Ft Worth. New service New Orleans-Biloxi-Mobile is already in the plan. NOLA-Baton Rouge corridor service. After the Sunset Ltd combines with the Texas Eagle and goes daily, we'll need Horizons for NOLA-Lafayette-Beaumont-Houston-San Antonio.

Consider NOLA-Baton Rouge-Alexandria-Shreveport-Dallas-Ft Worth. NOLA-Biloxi-Mobile-Montgomery-Birmingham (cross platform connection to the Crescent). Maybe Nashville-Memphis-Jackson-Monroe-Shreveport-Dallas-Ft Worth.

Possibly replace the Superliner equipment on the City of New Orleans. Horizons on the CONO would get cold in Chicago, but with a quick turnaround, they'd be south of the Ohio and thawing out the next day.

The problem with that idea is that while those corridors sound good, most are less likely to be implemented than additional Midwest service due to politics. Chicago is also already an established corridor hub, which currently is not the case in DFW or New Orleans. The Quad Cities train is near completion and the MSP train is gaining support. While the Rockford project is on hold, that will likely come back in the near future. Given additional equipment, I would be surprised if Michigan did not pursue additional frequencies on their routes. Although I forgot this in my original post, the Lincoln Service is supposed to gain additional frequencies soon. The others are more long term, but are still possibilities. There may still be some extra Horizons, which would be good for your more realistic lines such as Baton Rouge and Mobile. The Heartland Flyer could also be converted, giving the Superliners to Midwest corridor service. It would probably make sense to use the remaining Horizons on the southern/central Illinois and Missouri routes so the Superliners and newly acquired cars can serve the colder areas of Northern Illinois, Wisconsin, and Michigan. Carbondale (or maybe even Memphis), St. Louis, and Kansas City are not exactly warm in the winter, but they rarely remain below freezing for days at a time like is common in the Upper Midwest, giving the cars some thaw time before going back to Chicago.

 

[neroden]

On the Capitol Limited, the bedrooms are routinely underused; there is too high a supply of bedrooms for the demand, and it's not great financially. It would probably be better off with Viewliners. I can only speak to the CL in this regard. There should be no training problem as all CL stations, except a couple in West Virginia, handle single-level traffic.

Actually, are 6 stations on the CL that handle no other trains, and therefore no single-level Amtrak passengers cars. These are Alliance (OH), Connellsville (PA), Cumberland (MD), Martinsburg (WV), Harpers Ferry (WV), and Rockville (MD).

You're right that I forgot one station (and misplaced the state of two others).However, Martinsburg (WV), Harpers Ferry (WV) and Rockville (MD) DO handle single-level trains. MARC Train, to be precise.

In fact there are only THREE stations on the CL which handle no other trains: Alliance (OH), Connellsville (PA), and Cumberland (MD). Three stations. Total.

You're right and I knew that; I meant to write "no other Amtrak trains". I rembered to write that during the second part: "no single-level Amtrak passenger cars". Is the MARC service relevant to the training required for single-level Amtrak service? The MARC service is also irrelevant to the potential for too short of platforms.

None of these stations are staffed. The employees on the train have to know how to handle both single-level and bilevel equipment. MARC trains are quite long, and Amtrak stops at short platforms in other places -- in fact I think Harper's Ferry is too short for the Capitol Limited, IIRC.

My point is there would be no real problem in shifting the Capitol Limited to high-floor single-level equipment, and possibly quite a lot of benefit from standardization in the long run. It's in "single level territory", if you see what I mean.

 

[Thirdrail7]

It is a disservice to everyone who comes to this thread for Viewliner II news to have to read through countless pages of off-topic posts. Want to talk funding, equipment utilization, hypotheticals, etc., for the love of CAF please take it to another thread. The topic is Viewliner II delivery and production... acceptance, and operational status. So actually on topic, there was a time this past weekend when there was a goose egg for total in revenue service.

Indeed! The 8400 syndrome (a few trips and right in the shops) lives on.