Why are Chicago-New York sleepers ridiculously expensive?

[Texan Eagle]

If you are planning to reply "Because supply-demand" without reading rest of the post, please save the effort. I know that.

I was checking fares on Amsnag to do a sleeper ride from Chicago to New York any day in April, and the LOWEST fare for one in roomette on any day of the month is $337 on Lake Shore, while on Cardinal it is north of $650. I know sleepers are in short supply, but this kind of fares for just one overnight journey caught me by surprise!

Does anyone want to chime in on two things-

1) Are CHI-NYP fares always so ridiculously high?

2) What is the typical demographic/kind of travelers who pay these fares for CHI-NYP travel when flights between the two cities cost less than half of it?

 

[zephyr17]

If you already know that, why are you asking the question? There is a lot less capacity on the Cardinal than the Lake Shore, with only one sleeper, having to accommodate crew in revenue space, and only running 3 times a week. So, yeah, supply and demand.

Travelers for whom the experience is more important than the time or who are afraid of flying, those that hate flying and who have enough money and time to do it. To put it shortly, older travelers with good disposable income. I would not pay those fares, I would not pay that Cardinal accommodation charge even for 2 nights on a Western LD, let alone the Cardinal. But if there are those that would, more power to Amtrak if they get it. Faced with those accommodation charges and still wanting to take the train, I'd check on an NE Regional to DC and then the Capitol, which generally has significantly better fares than either the Lake Shore or the Cardinal (and which has more sleeper capacity than either of those two as well).

If they can't get it and the roomette is empty for the entire trip, Amtrak needs to adjust their yield management so it better reflects actual demand.

Remember, too, that unlike an airline, the train serves intermediate points. Generally on any of the long distance trains more passengers are traveling to and from intermediate points than endpoint to endpoint.

 

[PVD]

The best NY to Chicago deals are often found on combos connecting to the Cap Limited either through PGH or WAS.

They tend to be better than the other choices.

Lots of people like the leisure of the train trip, don't like flying, or are connecting to another train in Chicago.

 

[niemi24s]

An AmSnag search about 10 minutes ago showed Roomettes on the LSL for low bucket of $229 on 8 of the days in April and for a constant high bucket of $546 for the Cardinal. FWIW, sleeper buckets for the LSL and Cardinal are identical.

My only idea is about the Cardinal and it's that folks with deep pockets that go to that ritzy Greenbrier resort (at the White Sulphur Springs stop) may pay anything Amtrak wants. However, according to NARP data, WSS accounts for only a tiny portion (about 2.5%) of the total station activity, so my idea may not have much merit.

 

[bmjhagen9426]

If you are planning to reply "Because supply-demand" without reading rest of the post, please save the effort. I know that.

I was checking fares on Amsnag to do a sleeper ride from Chicago to New York any day in April, and the LOWEST fare for one in roomette on any day of the month is $337 on Lake Shore, while on Cardinal it is north of $650. I know sleepers are in short supply, but this kind of fares for just one overnight journey caught me by surprise!

Does anyone want to chime in on two things-

1) Are CHI-NYP fares always so ridiculously high?

2) What is the typical demographic/kind of travelers who pay these fares for CHI-NYP travel when flights between the two cities cost less than half of it?

For number 1, I would say that, aside for the rule of supply and demand, is the fact that the Cardinal only runs thrice-weekly. If they ran daily, prices might be lower. The reason why the triweekly arrangement is more expensive is that the OBS crew are given an away pay compensation for their off days, and that compensation is supposedly offset by higher fares. Lower capacity also plays a role, in which the Sunset Limited also have the same problem in terms of sleeper prices. As for number 2, I can't give you a definite answer, as I have never been to New York, let alone from Chicago neither by airplanes nor trains, and the fact that I don't normally fly domestic.

 

[railiner]

Reading of these high fares makes me nostalgic for the days of the NYC Sleepercoach....just $7.accommodation charge, added to the $51.25 Coach fare....

 

[Seaboard92]

Part of what runs the sleeper fares up on the lake shore limited is the upstate NY to NYP traffic occupying rooms for day use. And for the cardinal book multi city CHI-DYE in coach then DYE to NYP which drops the fare usually. And the rate is also high because the sleepers fill up east coast to Cincinnatti. I snagged a 70 dollar roomette on the cardinal I went coach to CIN and roomette to CHI from there.

 

[Asher]

If you want to dance to the music you have to pay the piper, otherwise you can shuffle your feet in a TSA line at the airport.☺

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Hopefully when the Viewliner II's increase, capacity increases and prices go down. Or they can always start another train

 

[jis]

Or, if they can fill the inventory at current fare levels, they can maintain the fares and become cash positive above the rails.

 

[PVD]

Remember, much as we would like to get lower fares when we travel, a transportation companies job (except in mass transit) is to maximize yield against expenses. Sometimes that means selling less seats at a higher price,: if adding too much added capacity erodes too many higher fare purchases it might be the wrong thing to do. Added staff costs might easily erode the extra revenue. Think of a situation where you can add a bag dorm, or add a full sleeper. Is it better to sell maybe 6 extra rooms with no added staff, or add a full car with an added staff person, and a greater risk of yield erosion?

 

[jis]

Airlines learned this very lesson the hard way over a couple of decades of fumbling.

 

[PVD]

It is actually a much more difficult process than it seems. You are balancing equipment availability against maintenance requirements crew scheduling including away time and hours of service provisions, host railroad costs, even added dwell time if I have to double spot....In the case of the airlines, the programs running yield management versus critical path management for crew and equipment utilization and maintenance are among the most complex in business today.

 

[dlagrua]

It can be said that sleepers are so expensive because Amtrak is selling them at those prices but there is an unanswered question. We travel regularly via sleeper and many times as we walk down the halls of the sleeper car (even in prime season), there are many unfilled sleepers. How can we apply the supply vs demand formula when the sleepers are often not sold out? The sleeper operates at a fixed cost so would it not be better to use a pricing formula that results in selling to 100% capacity.

 

[PVD]

Not always. If you sell unsold rooms at a bargain to fill them to far in advance of departure, you run the risk of travelers not buying at higher fares which might result in lower overall revenue. Another possibility might be changing the upgrade process back to something more like the old way, where an unsold space could be sold to a coach passenger at a lower rather than higher bucket.

 

[CCC1007]

It can be said that sleepers are so expensive because Amtrak is selling them at those prices but there is an unanswered question. We travel regularly via sleeper and many times as we walk down the halls of the sleeper car (even in prime season), there are many unfilled sleepers. How can we apply the supply vs demand formula when the sleepers are often not sold out? The sleeper operates at a fixed cost so would it not be better to use a pricing formula that results in selling to 100% capacity.

The rooms could also have been sold further up the line, or may have previously had a person in it.

 

[dlagrua]

It can be said that sleepers are so expensive because Amtrak is selling them at those prices but there is an unanswered question. We travel regularly via sleeper and many times as we walk down the halls of the sleeper car (even in prime season), there are many unfilled sleepers. How can we apply the supply vs demand formula when the sleepers are often not sold out? The sleeper operates at a fixed cost so would it not be better to use a pricing formula that results in selling to 100% capacity.

The rooms could also have been sold further up the line, or may have previously had a person in it.

That's a real possibility. On one Crescent trip to NOL the sleepers were well used but as soon as we left Atlanta there were few passengers left in the sleepers. Only Amtrak really knows what the real numbers are but consider another scenario. A traveler wants a sleeper to Chicago but the train shows sold out. About 6 hours into the trip a sleeper comes available on that train. If the traveler knew this from the gitgo, he/she may have choosen to book coach and wait 6 hours for the sleeper to do the remainder of the trip. As it stands now the only way to know this is by checking availability at each station. I also wonder if Amtrak holds some sleeper units for stations along the way. Say you want to go PGH -CHI, do the WAS passengers get first pick to scoop up all the sleepers or will one stay empty until the train reaches PGH? I am also concerned on the CZ where America by Rail books up 20 or more sleepers on many trains. They also go to the dining car as one block and its caused us to miss breakfast going into Denver. America by Rail being the room hog it is, needs to buy their own sleeper cars.

 

[jis]

Or one could speak with an Amtrak agent who would usually be willing to work with a customer (in my experience) on coming up with a Coach/Sleeper combo. At least I have been able to get this service from them on two separate occasions. but as Bob says - YMMV.

About America by Rail, would it then be OK if they had their 20 customers place the reservation request on their own, say on the same day? Seems like a ridiculous requirement that one of the larger revenue produces should be penalized because they successfully produce guaranteed revenue, no?

 

[dlagrua]

Or one could speak with an Amtrak agent who would usually be willing to work with a customer (in my experience) on coming up with a Coach/Sleeper combo. At least I have been able to get this service from them on two separate occasions. but as Bob says - YMMV.

About America by Rail, would it then be OK if they had their 20 customers place the reservation request on their own, say on the same day? Seems like a ridiculous requirement that one of the larger revenue produces should be penalized because they successfully produce guaranteed revenue, no?

As you know, America by Rail is a rail touring company that buys large blocks of rooms but by doing so they make it hard for the individual rail passengers to secure a roomette or bedroom. I've seen tours where they have filled the entire sleeper and dining car. They are certainly just as entitled as anyone else to purchase tickets but I find their service both disruptive, annoying and by reserving many rooms they only serve to drive the prices up. So what is fair for America by Rail tends to not to be so fair for the ordinary rail passengers. Suppose they grow to buy all the sleepers on the CZ so that there is nothing left for us. Would that be fair? That's why I say they should purchase and run their own sleeper cars.

 

[Lonestar648]

I am sure Amtrak would like to sell America by Rail their own sleeper, but can A by R fill a Sleeper? Will the Sleeper be occupied the entire route so the extra cost of pulling the car and its labor costs justify this car. Also, what is done with this sleeper and its SCA once it arrives at the train's destination. Will using a sleeper just A by R during the busy Summer season actually reduce capacity with Amtrak's limited fleet?

 

[Lonestar648]

I just looked at America by Rail, they are not on any Amtrak train with enough passengers and with a tour plan that could efficiently use a dedicated Sleeper. The number of times rooms are reserved on a specific train each year is fewer than five times out of 365 opportunities. Though they have a lot of tours all over the US, they do not seem to concentrate on a specific area. Just dont travel on the days of the tours which are well published a year in advance.

 

[gatelouse]

Amtrak prices sleepers on the Cardinal to discourage through travel between CHI and the NEC (Alexandria north to New York City), as these points are convenient enough to the LSL and CL. You'll find that prices drop off significantly when one end of your trip is somewhere between Dyer, IN and Manassas, VA, the market that the Cardinal intends to serve.

Regarding high prices on the LSL, hmm, yeah, supply and demand. ;-)

 

[neroden]

If you are planning to reply "Because supply-demand" without reading rest of the post, please save the effort. I know that.

I was checking fares on Amsnag to do a sleeper ride from Chicago to New York any day in April, and the LOWEST fare for one in roomette on any day of the month is $337 on Lake Shore, while on Cardinal it is north of $650. I know sleepers are in short supply, but this kind of fares for just one overnight journey caught me by surprise!

Does anyone want to chime in on two things-

1) Are CHI-NYP fares always so ridiculously high?

No. They go as low as $183.

2) What is the typical demographic/kind of travelers who pay these fares for CHI-NYP travel when flights between the two cities cost less than half of it?

People who don't want to fly.
And yes, there simply aren't enough sleepers on any of the Chicago-New York routes. They're very popular.

 

[neroden]

It can be said that sleepers are so expensive because Amtrak is selling them at those prices but there is an unanswered question. We travel regularly via sleeper and many times as we walk down the halls of the sleeper car (even in prime season), there are many unfilled sleepers. How can we apply the supply vs demand formula when the sleepers are often not sold out? The sleeper operates at a fixed cost so would it not be better to use a pricing formula that results in selling to 100% capacity.

Usually, for the LSL, the car is full at some point along the trip. I believe on the LSL, it's typically Toledo-Sandusky (this is an educated guess). It's practically impossible to have it full everywhere along the trip.

 

[niemi24s]

If you are planning to reply "Because supply-demand" without reading rest of the post, please save the effort. I know that.

I was checking fares on Amsnag to do a sleeper ride from Chicago to New York any day in April, and the LOWEST fare for one in roomette on any day of the month is $337 on Lake Shore, while on Cardinal it is north of $650. I know sleepers are in short supply, but this kind of fares for just one overnight journey caught me by surprise!

Does anyone want to chime in on two things-

1) Are CHI-NYP fares always so ridiculously high?

No. They go as low as $183.

No. They only "go" (have buckets) as low as $229 on the LSL and Card, which is low bucket for both. While $229 is offered on some days on the LSL, only the high bucket of $546 is offered on the Card during April (as of today). All this assumes the Roomette is booked for the entire trip. Maybe your $183 was for something else?