Why not a faster Capitol Limited?

[Jambo Bound]

What if you could leave Chicago after work and be in Washington in time for a morning meeting? Granted cutting that many hours would be tough and expensive but I believe much time could be saved by reducing the slow sections for poor track and some long slow transits of urban area along the way. Ideal would be a new express track with no grade crossings which the citys should like because then the train won't be tying up traffic, disturbing the peace with horns and bells or sending Darwin candidates to their just reward. Not to mention the smiles on the passengers faces as they swiftly go on their way as urban traffic is jammed up below.

I'm thinking maybe 100 to 125 mph top speed but mostly keeping the train above 80mph.

Any other ideas on how to speed up this route?

 

[Steve4031]

The slowest sections are from Cleveland to Washington dc. Most of this is because of hills and mountains. That would be prohibitively expensive. Some improvement could knock about 3 hours off of Chicago to Cleveland

 

[Ctim2]

What if you could leave Chicago after work and be in Washington in time for a morning meeting? Granted cutting that many hours would be tough and expensive but I believe much time could be saved by reducing the slow sections for poor track and some long slow transits of urban area along the way. Ideal would be a new express track with no grade crossings which the citys should like because then the train won't be tying up traffic, disturbing the peace with horns and bells or sending Darwin candidates to their just reward. Not to mention the smiles on the passengers faces as they swiftly go on their way as urban traffic is jammed up below.

I'm thinking maybe 100 to 125 mph top speed but mostly keeping the train above 80mph.

Any other ideas on how to speed up this route?

The first question might be what is the fastest scheduled time the Capital Limited has ever had?

Ctim2

 

[MrFSS]

The first question might be what is the fastest scheduled time the Capital Limited has ever had?

Ctim2

Here are two schedules of the way it use to be.

From the 1927 B&O table - they weren't calling one of the trains the Capitol Limited, yet, but you can see the times.

And, this one from 1958 - two trains from DC to Chicago - with dome cars no less.

 

[Bob Dylan]

:hi: Very interesting,thanks Tom! I especially noticed the "Sleepy Hollow" seats, were they like the current coach seats, I can remember riding in day coaches with stiff backs, perhaps they reclined? Also noted is the "Stewardess-Nurse", dont remember ever seeing one of those when I was a kid but I didnt get to ride the fancy trains much, only the milk runs and mail trains! I also noticed that there were two trains running very close together, those were the days indeed when one had a choice!

 

[TVRM610]

While there is prob. not much hope for the 35 mph running on parts of the CSX (winding along the hills) I think much of the NS line could be sped up to at least 90 if not slightly more. This would of course help out the LSL as well. Obviously if there was money, a passenger only track good for 110 or so could do wonders even if it were only for part of the line. I do agree that this line (not just the Capitol but the LSL as well as the hopeful return of the 3 rivers) should be one of the first to be improved if the money is ever there. There are so many large cities on these routes that would benefit from faster running.

NYC, CHI, PHL, DC, Cleveland, and Toledo. These cities really deserve better connections. Of course... money money money. ha.

Quick note... Did the 3 rivers run on this same line? Or was it the full length Pennsylvanian that I'm thinking of?

 

[Gratt]

I have always wondered what it would be like if Amtrak made a declared goal to create a train that would leave NYC in the early evening say 7 ish and arrive in CHI before 9AM. This could be done to the LSL if they could shave off about 4 hours, which while expensive is does not require HSR (unless NY state does it on their own).

Sadly I do not think Amtrak is really interested in creating overnight trains that have a chance at competing against the airlines between major city pairs. Amtrak could do it now between NYC-TWO; NYC-MTR; and LAX-OKJ.

Oh and on those routes is not an equipment issue, they simply don't want to.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

:hi: Very interesting,thanks Tom! I especially noticed the "Sleepy Hollow" seats, were they like the current coach seats, I can remember riding in day coaches with stiff backs, perhaps they reclined? Also noted is the "Stewardess-Nurse", dont remember ever seeing one of those when I was a kid but I didnt get to ride the fancy trains much, only the milk runs and mail trains! I also noticed that there were two trains running very close together, those were the days indeed when one had a choice!

Note that of the two B&O trains listed one train was all coach, the other was all pullman. It was sort of like the way that at times the Super Chief and the EL Capitan ran separately, at times together.

There were other B&O trains but these were the fastest. Similar fast schedule by the Liberty Limited on the Pennsylvania RR.

 

[AlanB]

While there is prob. not much hope for the 35 mph running on parts of the CSX (winding along the hills) I think much of the NS line could be sped up to at least 90 if not slightly more. This would of course help out the LSL as well. Obviously if there was money, a passenger only track good for 110 or so could do wonders even if it were only for part of the line. I do agree that this line (not just the Capitol but the LSL as well as the hopeful return of the 3 rivers) should be one of the first to be improved if the money is ever there. There are so many large cities on these routes that would benefit from faster running.

IIRC, there was some money granted to improve at least a short stretch of NS track where one of the biggest bottlenecks often occurs. I don't think that the monies are for 110 MPH track, or for that matter anything better than 79MPH track, but it does put back one of the long removed tracks giving NS more flexibilty to get Amtrak over the road. I believe, but won't swear to it, that it was from about where the Michigan trains join the NS line to Chicago where the improvements were to occur.

Quick note... Did the 3 rivers run on this same line? Or was it the full length Pennsylvanian that I'm thinking of?

No, the 3R's ran through central Ohio. You're thinking of the Pennsy when it ran to CHI, which followed the same route as the Capitol out of Pittsburgh going west.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

It's very easy to increase the Cap's speed-- just figure out a way to flatten those speed bumps called mountains

 

[AlanB]

I have always wondered what it would be like if Amtrak made a declared goal to create a train that would leave NYC in the early evening say 7 ish and arrive in CHI before 9AM. This could be done to the LSL if they could shave off about 4 hours, which while expensive is does not require HSR (unless NY state does it on their own).

I'm not sure that Amtrak could make it happen without some HSR running in NY State, without regard for who pays for that HSR. Amtrak probably could speed things up a bit by dropping some stops and creating more of an express train, and if Amtrak could somehow get CSX to actually agree to a faster schedule.

Sadly I do not think Amtrak is really interested in creating overnight trains that have a chance at competing against the airlines between major city pairs. Amtrak could do it now between NYC-TWO; NYC-MTR; and LAX-OKJ.
Oh and on those routes is not an equipment issue, they simply don't want to.

It most certainly is an equipment issue, unless you don't want sleepers on those overnight runs. Amtrak simply does not have any spare sleepers at present. Perhaps once the 25 new Viewliners come online, things might be different for the NYC-TWO & NYC-MTR pairings, but that won't help the LAX-OKJ. And regarding the first two city pairings, even now Amtrak doesn't have the needed Amfleet II cars to run such trains. They could only field such trains with Amfleet I cars and I for one don't even want to spend a night in the far more comfortable Amfleet II seats, much less a short haul Amfleet I seat.

Finally you totally ignore the customs issues that would be associated with such trains. Who wants to be woken up in the middle of the night to deal with customs? And that assumes that Amtrak could even get Canadian customs to actually work the trains at the required hours. As it is right now, CBSA wants Amtrak to pay for customs for the second Cascades train that runs into Vancouver. And one report says that they now require passengers on the Maple Leaf to disembark and stand outside in the elements while customs is done. And the CBSA has made it quite clear that they aren't happy with where and how customs currently occurs on the Adirondack. One reason that Amtrak is looking into changing the terminous for the Adirondack to Lucien-L'Allier station in Montreal where they can do much like is done on the Cascades service, lock the train into a fenced area and conduct customs in the station.

 

[railiner]

:hi: Very interesting,thanks Tom! I especially noticed the "Sleepy Hollow" seats, were they like the current coach seats, I can remember riding in day coaches with stiff backs, perhaps they reclined? Also noted is the "Stewardess-Nurse", dont remember ever seeing one of those when I was a kid but I didnt get to ride the fancy trains much, only the milk runs and mail trains! I also noticed that there were two trains running very close together, those were the days indeed when one had a choice!

The referenced "Sleepy Hollow" type seats were in my opinion, the most comfortable seats that were ever made even to this day. They were constructed by the old Heywood-Wakefield furniture company to a scientifically designed form that was developed after measuring thousands of different sized people. They were made usually in pairs of rotating, revolving recliners, sometimes with only footrests on the backs of the seats ahead, others with full legrests that tucked away from under the seat.

They were constructed with sections of molded foam rubber, and were supremely comfortable. They also reclined a lot further than Amtrak seats. One reason is that they did not have tray tables to contend with. They also had a parlor car version that had adjustable headrests. Those seats were built to last, and you did not see or hear them rattling or vibrating, even on rough trackage.

 

[Steve4031]

:hi: Very interesting,thanks Tom! I especially noticed the "Sleepy Hollow" seats, were they like the current coach seats, I can remember riding in day coaches with stiff backs, perhaps they reclined? Also noted is the "Stewardess-Nurse", dont remember ever seeing one of those when I was a kid but I didnt get to ride the fancy trains much, only the milk runs and mail trains! I also noticed that there were two trains running very close together, those were the days indeed when one had a choice!

The referenced "Sleepy Hollow" type seats were in my opinion, the most comfortable seats that were ever made even to this day. They were constructed by the old Heywood-Wakefield furniture company to a scientifically designed form that was developed after measuring thousands of different sized people. They were made usually in pairs of rotating, revolving recliners, sometimes with only footrests on the backs of the seats ahead, others with full legrests that tucked away from under the seat.

They were constructed with sections of molded foam rubber, and were supremely comfortable. They also reclined a lot further than Amtrak seats. One reason is that they did not have tray tables to contend with. They also had a parlor car version that had adjustable headrests. Those seats were built to last, and you did not see or hear them rattling or vibrating, even on rough trackage.

I remember those seats. I slept well in coach. Those nasty amfleet seats with the plastic strip between them was the end of civilized coach travel

IMHO. Lol.

 

[TVRM610]

I have always wondered what it would be like if Amtrak made a declared goal to create a train that would leave NYC in the early evening say 7 ish and arrive in CHI before 9AM. This could be done to the LSL if they could shave off about 4 hours, which while expensive is does not require HSR (unless NY state does it on their own).

Sadly I do not think Amtrak is really interested in creating overnight trains that have a chance at competing against the airlines between major city pairs. Amtrak could do it now between NYC-TWO; NYC-MTR; and LAX-OKJ.

Oh and on those routes is not an equipment issue, they simply don't want to.

I think that Amtrak has an interest, but at this point is just trying to keep up what it has. Personally, I think the Chicago to NEC routes should be a priority once the equipment arrives. In addition to quicker travel times, a larger variety of schedules is really needed. Bring back the full length Pennsy for a start. I think a route's success has alot to do with frequency. Of course, we have become thankful with once a day trains (and indeed we should be), these routes really need more frequent service.

Actually.. a nice dream thought.... say the Capitol runs its current route, but when it arrives in DC it continues north to NYC. The LSL likewise south to DC. This way all the Chicago to NEC trains could each serve NYC, PHL, and WAS with a one seat ride. I know this is far from realistic for a number of reasons (yes I know the Capitol is SL and the SL can't got to NYP.. trust me I know ) but it's a fun thought.

 

[spacecadet]

:hi: Very interesting,thanks Tom! I especially noticed the "Sleepy Hollow" seats, were they like the current coach seats, I can remember riding in day coaches with stiff backs, perhaps they reclined?

This link has a picture and description of the Sleepy Hollow seats several pages down (you need to scroll for the photo, although the description is on the first page): http://books.google.com/books?id=bz0OBGxRjjcC&pg=PA377&lpg=PA377&dq=%22sleepy+hollow%22+coach+seat&source=bl&ots=ZHpVCo9xXU&sig=QENMvjvmlF-6F0glwNcd8TuA-WY&hl=en&ei=lv1jTKaFEoL_8Abxq82JCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA

Different railroads used them and they might have looked slightly different (colors, fabrics) depending on the railroad.

I remember riding on these in the very early days of Amtrak and yes, they were *very* comfortable. In fact, I'd never known what they were called and could never find photos of them, until right now! I've been looking ever since I was a kid, because these were some memorable seats.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

:hi: Very interesting,thanks Tom! I especially noticed the "Sleepy Hollow" seats, were they like the current coach seats, I can remember riding in day coaches with stiff backs, perhaps they reclined?

This link has a picture and description of the Sleepy Hollow seats several pages down (you need to scroll for the photo, although the description is on the first page): http://books.google.com/books?id=bz0OBGxRjjcC&pg=PA377&lpg=PA377&dq=%22sleepy+hollow%22+coach+seat&source=bl&ots=ZHpVCo9xXU&sig=QENMvjvmlF-6F0glwNcd8TuA-WY&hl=en&ei=lv1jTKaFEoL_8Abxq82JCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA

Different railroads used them and they might have looked slightly different (colors, fabrics) depending on the railroad.

I remember riding on these in the very early days of Amtrak and yes, they were *very* comfortable. In fact, I'd never known what they were called and could never find photos of them, until right now! I've been looking ever since I was a kid, because these were some memorable seats.

I seem to recall that the Chicago and Eastern Illinois RR was one of lines which widely advertised it's sleepy hollow seats. My apologies if that was mentioned in the article.

 

[spacecadet]

I seem to recall that the Chicago and Eastern Illinois RR was one of lines which widely advertised it's sleepy hollow seats. My apologies if that was mentioned in the article.

The book just says they became a standard long distance coach seat post WWII. I do remember them on cars that looked like they came from various railroads. Amtrak had reupholstered them with something similar to the red Amfleet seats they have now (although I do remember one car with blue seats that were probably left over from the original railroad), but they were definitely the same shape and style as in the photo at the link I posted. They were probably advertised more towards the beginning of their use, but then became more of a standard feature later on.

But man, those were some amazing seats.

 

[jis]

While there is prob. not much hope for the 35 mph running on parts of the CSX (winding along the hills) I think much of the NS line could be sped up to at least 90 if not slightly more. This would of course help out the LSL as well. Obviously if there was money, a passenger only track good for 110 or so could do wonders even if it were only for part of the line. I do agree that this line (not just the Capitol but the LSL as well as the hopeful return of the 3 rivers) should be one of the first to be improved if the money is ever there. There are so many large cities on these routes that would benefit from faster running.

It would be even better if the old PRR (now NS) Fort Wayne line could be used again, now that NS is tarting to use that line more due to rising traffic. In spite of the disappearance of the Hobart connection, there are other ways to get to Chicago from that line even today. The pluses of doing so is that actually a bunch of places that have traditionally had railroad service will get it back. The minuses is that it will be slower than if the same train ran via Cleveland and South Bend since it is unlikely that at least in the near future NS will raise the quality of maintenance on the Fort Wayne Line to make it 79mph all the way.

 

[railiner]

I seem to recall that the Chicago and Eastern Illinois RR was one of lines which widely advertised it's sleepy hollow seats. My apologies if that was mentioned in the article.

The book just says they became a standard long distance coach seat post WWII. I do remember them on cars that looked like they came from various railroads. Amtrak had reupholstered them with something similar to the red Amfleet seats they have now (although I do remember one car with blue seats that were probably left over from the original railroad), but they were definitely the same shape and style as in the photo at the link I posted. They were probably advertised more towards the beginning of their use, but then became more of a standard feature later on.

But man, those were some amazing seats.

How many seats made nowadays on any public transportation are known by name by the traveling public? Probably none except for possibly Recaro.

Those Sleepy Hollow's were designed for transcontinental travel. You could sleep in them for hours, and wake up feeling refreshed, without any backaches. Some found them even more comfortable than sleeping in a berth.

Heywood-Wakefield furniture made for the home, commands good prices at antique auctions.

 

[Eric S]

As AlanB mentioned earlier, a portion of the ARRA $8 billion high speed rail funds were allocated to improve/expand capacity on the line currently used heading east from Chicago to Porter, IN (which is where the Amtrak-owned tracks used by the Blue Water and Wolverine trains diverge from the tracks used by the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited).

Also, the long-discussed and long-studied Midwest Regional Rail System and Ohio Hub proposals involve upgrading/improving trackage Chicago-Toledo-Cleveland-Pittsburgh, but not necessarily the same routes Amtrak currently uses. (For example, serving Fort Wayne rather than South Bend between Chicago and Toledo, and serving Youngstown rather than Alliance between Cleveland and Pittsburgh.)