WWYD? Indian Rail or Canadian?

[rrdude]

I live near Baltimore, MD. Assume I have three weeks vacation, and my options (for 2017) are:

• Trans-Canada departing Halifax on Ocean, spending a few days each in Montreal, Toronto, and perhaps Banff. Sleeper on Ocean, Prestige Class on Canadian. Fly home from Vancouver.
• Travel to India, (never been) and cris-cross the continent by rail, experiencing as many different regions, and style of service as possible.

Factors to consider:

• Travel time TO / FROM India
• Wife not a big train fan, but India itself should be appealing to her
• 10K budget

What Would You Do?

 

[MrFSS]

Remember The Canadian doesn't go to Banff. You'd have to get yourself there by other transportation.

IMHO instead of Montreal consider Quebec City as a stopover. Much to see and do there.

 

[gaspeamtrak]

I would personally take the "Canadian" if you are going with your wife. My brother just got back from a round trip Toronto to Vancouver round trip and these are his remarks.The service is excellent, the food is good, the company is good. the scenery is good. Going across northern Ontario for 24 hours all you see is lakes, trees, and the Canadian shield. Some people find this ok and others don't like it. There is basically no cell phone service after you leave Toronto till you hit Winnipeg. Which is ok in my books!

The big thing is the time keeping is AWFUL!!! :angry: But this is not Via's fault.He was 2 hours late into Vancouver which is ok. Coming back to Toronto he was over 7 hours late!!! :angry2: :angry2:

Do not book your flight home the same day!!! Stay a night in each city to be safe!!! There were people arriving on Toronto who had booked afternoon flights and missed them..

By the way Via has stopped giving out 50% refunds for the Canadian which I don't blame them for.

Still I would ride the Canadian while you can!!!

 

[jis]

You'd get a heck of a lot more traveling done in AC First Class in India if you can swallow a 15 hour non-stop flight from New York to Delhi or Mumbai. Delhi would probably be a better place to start since you can do day trips to popular tourist locations like Agra and Jaipur by premier Shatabdi Expresses. Of course you can travel between Delhi and Mumbai by multiple Rajdhani Expresses any day in AC First. Delhi is connected to most State Capitals by Rajdhani Expresses(for some more than one each day + non-stop Duronto Express too) which carry AC First Class, which is what you would probably want to travel by, unless of course you want to get a more local experience. In that case you could first choose between Air Conditioned or not, and then choose between what type of Sleeper service or Sitting service. All Sleeper service other than AC First are basically Section-like with different levels of privacy provided by the existence of curtains or not, and space (2-Tier vs 3-Tier).

You would want to purchase Indrail Passes for the class that you choose to travel in (Travel as much as you like any route in 21 days - a 21 day pass for AC 1st is $396, AC 2 Tier/3 Tier/Chair Car $198, non-AC Sleeper/CC $100) to cover the number of days you wish to travel, and then get reservations for whatever itinerary you choose through IRCTC. The premier trains require reservations, and all sleeping accommodation require reservations.

Round trip Coach Air ticket to India bought with a little care would come in somewhere between $1200 and $1800. The non-stops (United and Air India) are a bit more expensive. There are also excellent one stop service (Air India, Jet Airways, British Airways, Lufthansa, United/Luftahnsa, Emirates, Turkish, to more exotic like El Al letc. etc.). Business Class will not be affordable within the stated budget and then have much left for much else.

India is a vast country with millions of possible itineraries using its very dense express train network. So plan carefully and select a part of the country to cover.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Tough decision, I'm envious!

Since I've been in Canada many times ( my second fave after the good ole USA) and ridden all the VIA Trains,and have only been to India once, as a poor student on a hostel/backpack budget, I'm really impressed by jis' ( a native of India) info. ( as well as our British AU friend Eddie who has shared his India travel adventures and is planning another one soon)

I think the only negative is the long flight ( as jis said Biz Class/First is much better but @_a dear price) and perhaps ya'lls thoughts and preferences about crowding, heat,sanitation,health and safety issues.( no offense meant)

All things considered,as much as I love Canada, I would go with the trip to India if you can get a good deal on flights and are able to book good hotels @ good rates and make solid travel reservatiions, Indian trains are wildly popular and sell out frequently even though, as jis said, there are many, many choices!

Although it's been many years ago, due to the heat and crowding, I personally think you should book only AC travel on the trains and stay in tourist class or above hotels! ( no 5 Stars but clean, AC hotels) The time of year you travel is also an important consideration! ( The wet season and Holidays are not good times to travel !)

 

[printman2000]

Used Qatar Airways last year to India and loved it. Their seats in coach tend to be wider than most other airlines and their service was excellent. Planning to go back this year and will for sure use them.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Are the news reports, articles, and videos about women being routinely accosted on Indian trains untrue? From what I've heard and read having a male friend or relative nearby is no defense from throngs of shockingly aggressive men and amazingly indifferent bystanders. I previously assumed the reason this never came up was because the travelers were men but in this case the OP has expressed his desire to bring along his wife.

 

[jis]

Are the news reports, articles, and videos about women being routinely accosted on Indian trains untrue? From what I've heard and read having a male friend or relative nearby is no defense from throngs of shockingly aggressive men and amazingly indifferent bystanders. I previously assumed the reason this never came up was because the travelers were men but in this case the OP has expressed his desire to bring along his wife.

It happens, but has not happened to anyone that I know that was traveling as part of a family or a group. But as Jim says YMMV.
It is quite unlikely in AC First Class. It is also quite unlikely in any class in any of the prestige trains like the Rajdhanis, Shatabdis and Durontos since they all carry armed CISF or RPF personnel quite regularly, and also have SCAs in each car. It is more likely in non-AC Sleepers and can be bad in General Second Class, It depends on the environment. If you stay in environments that are frequented by tourists and upper middle class it is generally less likely.

Around Kolkata I have traveled a lot in local suburban trains with my sister, and never had any problem. Indeed a bigger problem is petty theft and pickpockets than sexual harassment. We have even traveled to obscure places far from the places usually frequented by tourists and such with no problem. Of course that does not mean that a foreigner should do the same without an Indian escort necessarily. After all we are natives and speak and understand local dialects and pretty much mix in with the locals if needed.

 

[tp49]

Given those choices, if it was me (and I have no problem handling the flight) I'd go to India while I was still physically able to do so. Jis explained it much better than I could but then again I have a world travel bug.

 

[caravanman]

I am off to India myself in 6 weeks time. As you can imagine, India is much more varied, and dare I say exciting than Canada. I have been to both, and although I enjoyed my ride on the Canadian, it was rather sedate compared to India, which is more "in your face".

There are reports of females receiving unwanted attention, but you are much more likely to be treated with respect on public transport and offered someones seat than anything untoward.

I managed to "sign up" to Cleartrip travel agency, which allows me to buy Indian rail tickets online, and even avail of the pensioners discounts.

I will post a report of my trip as I go along... you have been warned!

If there are any questions either beforehand or during, please feel free to send a pm if easier.

My first train ride will be from Trivandrum in the south, right up to Delhi in the north. Rajdhani AC 2 tier open sleeping berths. 3149 Km, 2 nights aboard the train, meals included. Price? 3200 Rupees, that is about US$50..(with senior discount). Should be quite lush vegetation at the tail end of the monsoon.

Sorry for going on and on... I get excited by India!

Ed

 

[jis]

Absolutely. If you are 60 years or older male (58 years or older female) avail of the senior discount by all means. it is huge! Even your AC 1 fare will get reduced by almost a third.

I envy you on the TVC Rajdhani ride!

I will be in India in January. Just bagged an amazing deal on a Business Class round trip ticket - even acknowledged as such by the United Reservation agent. I will most likely be riding the Pune - Howrah AC Duronto (nonstop service) and the Horwah/Sealdah - New Delhi Rajdhani. Also plan to do some local suburban EMU riding around Kolkata. Specifically I want to go to the Bangladesh border station at Gede and watch the international Maitree Express pass through on its way to Dhaka in Bangladesh. It now runs five times a week. maybe next time I will actually make the trip. The visa situation for crossing land borders is a bit of a hassle.

Yeah... I can go on and on too

Did you know that Konkan Railway, which you traverse on your TVC - Rajdhani trip has a special monsoon timetable which slows all trains down several hours?

 

[Bob Dylan]

Look forward to both of ya'lls trip reports! We're envious!

 

[caravanman]

Hi, Jis, Jim,

Yes, Jis, I was aware of the monsoon timetable. After I get to Delhi I am having a few days there, so no onward connection worries. Possibly a slower train will make it safer for me to hang out the door to take pics...

Train 2 is another Rajdhani to Bhubaneshwar to visit Konak, etc. Train 3 Konak Express to Mumbai, almost a week there, then train 4 to Jaisalmere.

Probably then Bikaner, Pathancot, for the Jogindar Nager line and bus to Manali and back to Shimla to get back on the rails.

I have 3 months in India to play with, so lots of train rides yet to book.

Have you seen the BBC Maitree Exp. programme?

Cheers,

Ed.

ps excuse my spellings !

 

[jis]

Which BBS (hey IR has station codes too) Rajdhani are you on? Via Adra or via Bokaro? On the (BBS) Bhubaneshwar Rajdhani you will be part of the parade of Rajdhanis that depart New Delhi (NDLS) each evening and run nose to tail all the way to Mughal Sarai (MGS) and then split off in various directions. You will be in the company of the Sealdah, Howrah, Ranchi, Patna, and Gauhati Rajdhanis (in addition to yours) and a couple of Garib Raths and Sampark Kranti Superfast. It is quite a sight to behold if you are off the train. Not so much while riding one of them unfortunately.

When you are in Manali see if you can manage to get a tour bus or taxi or Land Rover or Toyota Qalis or whatever upto Rohtang Pass. Beautiful views and if any thing a bit of a nerve wrecking drive up. But you will get a sense of the vastness of the Himalayas. It is the first high pass that you cross on the way from Manali to Leh by road.The road crosses the Pir Panjal Range there from Beas Valley to Chenab Valley in Lahul-Spiti.

Yes I have seen all three of that BBC series. I like the Maitree episode the most.

BTW I trust you are already aware of the excellent real time and planning train information website http://indiarailinfo.com/trains

That website could teach Amtrak more than a few lessons IMHO

 

[Texan Eagle]

Like the others, I'd say if you have the time, physical energy and the enthusiasm to do it now, go to India! Canada is right across the border and not going away anywhere

Your $10K budget should be plenty for a very comfortable India trip for two, and unlike what Slumdog Millionaire and the likes would tell you, Indian cities and trains today are pretty modern and welcoming to a foreign tourist.

Like jis said, with a good deal on flights, your roundtrip tickets for two will come to about $3K, max $4K if you are inflexible with airlines and dates. That leaves you $6K USD = 360,000 Indian rupees which is aplenty.

If you stick to the highest class of service on trains- First AC on Rajdhani and Duronto class trains, each ticket for an overnight or longer journey will be about Rs 5,000 including meals. One word of advice- First AC is very comfortable and safe, but IMO very sterile since the occupants are either government employees using "free" passes or very wealthy businessmen etc. If you really want to get a taste of India without getting yourself too dirty, do some of your journeys in 2A, 3A or even the non-AC Sleeper class if your wife is okay with "roughing it out" a bit. That is where you will get to experience the *real* India, and some very interesting conversations. Just stay away from the "unreserved 2nd class" for the love of all that is holy!

Regarding safety, of yourself and your wife- Observe regular heightened awareness of surroundings and don't get freaked out and you will be fine. Yes, as a white (or even black) foreign tourist, you will get a lot of glances and stares from the locals outside of touristy areas, but 99.99% times they are harmless curiosity since those people may have never seen a white man and woman all their life. Indian train travelers tend to be very social in general, they may ask you all sorts of questions, including what we consider here too personal like where do you work, or even how much do you earn but if you can take it in your stride (answer anything random, nobody is going to cross-verify, you can say you are the next Bill Gates if you want to) you will find the co-passengers become very friendly and will offer you food/drinks etc.

Send me a message if you need any help making an itinerary etc. I have traveled about 50,000 km on Indian trains over many years (though very little lately).

 

[Bob Dylan]

Boy are we lucky to have so many members that know about India and it's

great Rail System!

If an unknown rich Uncle ever leaves me some money so I can afford the flight, I will go back and like Eddie, spend several months exploring this fascinating country via rail!

 

[Texan Eagle]

If an unknown rich Uncle ever leaves me some money so I can afford the flight, I will go back and like Eddie, spend several months exploring this fascinating country via rail!

It is not exactly cheap, but a frugal trip to India for rail travel does not have to necessarily break the bank, one can do like a 10 day trip to India riding trains every day for under $2K including flight ticket from the US, all travel, meals and accommodation.

Out of curiosity, I checked what are the cheapest flight tickets to India available in September (flexible departure dates, 9-10 day trip) and you can fly TransAero from JFK to Delhi via Moscow roundtrip for as low as $882! (or a more humane airline for ~$1000)

You could plan your itinerary to spend every night in a train since there are so many trains you will always find one that works for you, and save on hotel costs (need to figure out something for shower). Let's say you do 7 train journeys in 3A class (cheapest air-conditioned reserved class available), that might cost you something like $50 each, so total $350-400

Food would be included in many overnight trains or you can keep aside $5 per meal, so lets say $100 for the trip duration.

Bingo! If you do not spend on anything else like sightseeing, gifts, alcohol etc, there you have a rail trip to India for $1,500 all inclusive

 

[printman2000]

I have seen Qatar Airways flights from DFW to Chennai for around $900 round trip in September. Qatar is a very good airline. To Delhi seems to be about the same.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Thanks for the info guys! The Qatar flight from DFW sounds great! ☺

Maybe next year, the Gathering is all I can afford this year!

 

[caravanman]

Hi,

India Rail Info has been my guru for finding connections, route maps, and even checking availability. Great site!

The second Rajdhani is number 22812, on a Friday, via Adra. Once again I will be in AC2 class.

I too have read that the AC1 class is a bit snooty, and folk don't tend to chit chat so much. I am told there is also more chance of getting "bumped" by last minute govt. officials who have first claim on those berths?

Met many people in AC2 who chatted and then bought me a masala chai too!

I do plan to ride a few unreserved trains, Jaisalmer to Bikaner, and the Jogindar Nagar line.

Parts of my trip will be nostalgic, as I visited some places in 1983, including Kulu and Manali. I guess those will be much changed, many more tourists. I remember the Rohtang pass and also the hot spring baths at Vashist. (I also remember the next bus catching fire when they tried to warm the frozen diesel with a not so small fire beneath the bus - happy days!)

Oops, sorry, I am going on again...

Ed

ps I have enjoyed my flights on Quatar Airlines also.

 

[jis]

The Rail Info site is a ralfan's dream come true.

For example, for each train you can get the passing times of each station and block hut and cabin on its route! You can get similar information for each station too, so if you want to do some train watching/photographing, it is kind of handy to bring up the list for the station that you are sitting at.

If a train is detoured you can get the approximate passing times for many of the major stations on the diversion route! No opaque "Service Disruption" with no further information usually.

After some major event like this recent derailment, or a major fog event in the winter, it is quite interesting even to watch remotely, how the situation is actually being handled.

Incidentally, there are other sites for each major city's suburban system with equivalent information for the many hundreds of suburban trains each day too.

 

[caravanman]

Hi Jis,

Yes indeed, a very good site. I also have the "Great Indian Railway Map" on my wall... hope to buy the atlas itself more cheaply once in India, I gather a new issue of that is due out soon.

If you can list or pm me any maps/info/sites for Delhi, Kolkata, Mumbai and Chennai suburban networks I would be obliged. I have a particular wish to ride the trams in Kolkata too, if they still run?

Thanks,

Ed.

 

[Texan Eagle]

If you can list or pm me any maps/info/sites for Delhi, Kolkata, Mumbai and Chennai suburban networks I would be obliged. I have a particular wish to ride the trams in Kolkata too, if they still run?

I am not Jis, but since you asked this here, I would like to let everyone know of two very useful apps you can keep on your smartphone if you are ever doing train travel in India-

eRail - a railfan-built app (think of AmSnag) overlaying the official nationwide train timetable and reservation system that is very easy to use. You cannot book tickets using it, but shows seat availability in all classes of any train that you choose.

m-Indicator - this one is specific to Mumbai but very useful to get schedules and maps of all means of rail transport in the city- long distance trains, local commuter trains, Metro, Monorail, and even bus routes, ferries, cab fares, locations of hospitals, police stations, etc.

 

[neroden]

I live near Baltimore, MD. Assume I have three weeks vacation, and my options (for 2017) are:

• Trans-Canada departing Halifax on Ocean, spending a few days each in Montreal, Toronto, and perhaps Banff. Sleeper on Ocean, Prestige Class on Canadian. Fly home from Vancouver.
• Travel to India, (never been) and cris-cross the continent by rail, experiencing as many different regions, and style of service as possible.

Factors to consider:

• Travel time TO / FROM India
• Wife not a big train fan, but India itself should be appealing to her
• 10K budget

What Would You Do?

In your position, I'd do India.

The only argument for taking the Canadian trains is that they might disappear for good soon... India's trains are secure.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

In your position, I'd do India. The only argument for taking the Canadian trains is that they might disappear for good soon... India's trains are secure.

Depends on how you define security. Canadian trains face the risk of defunding while Indian trains face the risk of being blown into nuclear rubble by Pakistan. However, according to numerous Indian politicians this is not a problem because there are more than enough Indians to survive a nuclear war and rebuild the trains (and everything else). That assertion remains one of the most ludicrous concepts I've ever had to digest.