ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
Heheh, its worth noting that there are no curtains I can see...
Emergency Cord
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Kevin L.
Service Attendant
Provided that the brake provides enough force to lock the wheels, the weight of the train does not have a direct impact on stopping distance.
The distribution of mass has an effect, as it changes the all important center of mass.
For more information:http://crpit.com/confpapers/CRPITV3Barney.pdf . Herein, the difference between the 2 levels of brake force are used to ensure that the wheel locks, which is still the fastest way to stop a rolling wheel in ideal conditions.
Just in case anyone has a physics test coming up
Shawn
Service Attendant
Hmm, this isn't a black and white question. From my experience in emergency services and train service, I would have differing opinions...
1) If there was a psycho running from car to car shooting people, I would get the train stopped and get out. I would rather take a chance on the ground rather than being hunted on a train.
2) If there was a fire, it would all depend on "what" is on fire. If there was a large fire in a coach or sleeper, etc. Then yes, stopping the train would be appropriate, especially if exits were blocked. If it was a smoldering fire or something that could possibly be extinguished on the train, then don't stop and use an extinguisher and find some crew members.
3) Medical emergencies are a definite no. You gotta find somewhere to meet the fire department.
So, you can run a list of "what if's" but it all comes down to...what the situation is at that exact moment.
1) If there was a psycho running from car to car shooting people, I would get the train stopped and get out. I would rather take a chance on the ground rather than being hunted on a train.
2) If there was a fire, it would all depend on "what" is on fire. If there was a large fire in a coach or sleeper, etc. Then yes, stopping the train would be appropriate, especially if exits were blocked. If it was a smoldering fire or something that could possibly be extinguished on the train, then don't stop and use an extinguisher and find some crew members.
3) Medical emergencies are a definite no. You gotta find somewhere to meet the fire department.
So, you can run a list of "what if's" but it all comes down to...what the situation is at that exact moment.
the Other Mike
Lead Service Attendant
Were you able to NOT mutter "idiots" under your breath ?
the Other Mike
Lead Service Attendant
< groan............... as I'm hearing you say that in a Groucho Marx voice>
had8ley
Engineer
Just one addition to this post~ IF you pull the cord you are interfering with Interstate Commerce and the FRA, FBI and a few other agencies could be breathing down your neck so be verrry careful before you pull the cord!
Shawn
Service Attendant
Sounds like this topic has taken off on a path of its own....
Shall I pull the Emergency Cord so we can stop it and get if back on track?
Joel N. Weber II
Engineer
If the emergency brake controls are only located at the end of the car, then anyone who is in a position to operate them is probably also in a position to move to another car. The exception to that would be if there is no next car to move into from the end of the car one is in. Though I'm mostly thinking single level trains here; a fire that blocked access to a Superliner's single staircase is certainly something that would make me want to stop the train and get out if I happened to be on the lower level.
Remember that moving from one car to another is typically much faster than bringing the entire train to a halt. If a fire is contained in a single car which happens to be a single level car, the fastest escape will typically be moving to another car.
If there is anyone who cannot get out of a burning car on their own, letting the train roll to where it can more easily meet the fire department may improve the chances of survival for those who don't get out until the fire department rescues them. (Though I'm not sure how much Amtrak crews are expected to do in that case.)
Amtrak OBS Gone Freight
OBS Chief
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Aright... Alan pretty much summed it up of when it is and is not acceptable to pull the emergency brake lever/cord. Battalion51 has seconded that as well. And now had8ley has interjected another important piece of info to the the thread. Here's a little more to add to it....
Everyone should keep in mind that the emergency brake lever is technically for use by an "operating employee" other than the engineer to be able to take control of the train by stopping the movement. It was never really placed there for the use of a passenger or non employee unless of an extreme circumstance!
I have an emergency brake lever on my side (conductor/fireman) of the locomotive that I have use of in the event my engineer becomes incapacitated where my action may be needed prior to the train's alerting system (dead man's switch) kicking in. And of course it is required to be located in a conspicuous place on passenger equipment. The train's operating crew is required to maintain constant positive communication while on duty for the entire tour of duty. So if an engineer doesn't hear anything out of his conductor and/or assistant conductor, he/she is gonna be calling back soon via radio to keep that contact established. If there is no response, then the engineer is required to stop the train and investigate the situation. The same goes for the conductor and the rest of the operating crew. If a conductor calls his engineer and there is no response from the engineer then he/she is responsible to attempt to re-establish that communication ASAP or stop the train and investigate the problem as well. So when we get right down to it, there is really no reason for anyone other than an operating employee to use the emergency brake handle unless it is a case where someone is caught by the door, step, and being drug by the train and there is no conductor, OBS attendant, or any other employee available or close by to take control of the train's movement. In other words it darn well better be a life or death situation to begin with. As had8ley points out, there can be and are strict consequences to anyone pulling the brake lever for any reason other than a life or death situation!!! The best case is to leave that decision to the operating crew for their need maintain control of their train are the main reason those devices are in place. There are exceptions, but very few to say the least.
OBS gone freight...
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Actually it is black and white. By law you cannot pull that cord for any of the reasons listed above.
In the first case, perhaps most of the people here would actually know how to get the doors opened and if need be, the traps open. But you average Joe who might be reading this wouldn't know that and would have just made a bad situation worse.
For your second item, consider that the crew may already know about the fire and may have already made arrangements for the fire department to meet them at the next grade crossing. Now here you come along and pull the cord, stopping the train two miles from the crossing where the fire department is racing to. You've just delayed assistance and quite possibly cost lives, all while committing an illegal act by pulling the cord. Enjoy your time in jail!
And depending on just where the fire is, you may have even made the fire worse. Consider if the fire in the last car of the train. The train’s forward motion keeps the breeze flowing to the rear, helping to prevent the fire from spreading forward. Stopping the train cuts off that breeze and allows the fire to engulf the entire train. Now granted the reverse is true also, if the fire is in the first car, then the train's motion will help to spread it. But trust me, 90% of those riding a train aren't going to be considering any of this if god forbid they wake up to find a fire onboard.
So bottom line, just don't pull the cord unless you see someone being dragged by a train.
MattW
Conductor
[sarcasm]
So what happens if the locomotive separates and for whatever reason, the brakes don't apply and no one but you notices (conductors breaking up fight between 8 drunks perhaps?)?
[/sarcasm]
(it's only half sarcastic, I ALWAYS think of worst case whatever I do so I can be prepared and relieved when worst case doesn't happen instead of expecting the best and scared, hurt, or dead if the worst did happen)
So what happens if the locomotive separates and for whatever reason, the brakes don't apply and no one but you notices (conductors breaking up fight between 8 drunks perhaps?)?
[/sarcasm]
(it's only half sarcastic, I ALWAYS think of worst case whatever I do so I can be prepared and relieved when worst case doesn't happen instead of expecting the best and scared, hurt, or dead if the worst did happen)
Well if that scenario were to happen, pulling the emergency cord would do about as much good as your getting in front of the train and trying to stop it, a la Superman style.
A seperation can't happen without the brakes applying, but if by some miracle it did, pulling the brake cord activates the same braking system that has already failed to activate. So if the brakes didn't start working at the moment of seperation, pulling the brake cord isn't going to help as the system is obviously not working.
Now if you know how to set a hand brake and where to find it, that might help.
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Kevin L.
Service Attendant
So, the emergency brake cable is like a 2nd brake pedal, and not like the "emergency"/parking brake, if compared to a car?
If the normal brake pedal has failed, this emergency cord is like the oxygen mask during a plane crash--just there to make you feel better, as it has no life saving effect?
Weird, but good to know.
In light of the idiot cadre on board, I seriously question how my 2nd ever amtrak trip will turn out. The first had an ignorant male babbling on into his cellphone about bud light and ignoring the conductor trying to take his ticket. It shouldn't take 5 attempts to get someone to hand over their ticket..but I digress
If the normal brake pedal has failed, this emergency cord is like the oxygen mask during a plane crash--just there to make you feel better, as it has no life saving effect?
Weird, but good to know.
In light of the idiot cadre on board, I seriously question how my 2nd ever amtrak trip will turn out. The first had an ignorant male babbling on into his cellphone about bud light and ignoring the conductor trying to take his ticket. It shouldn't take 5 attempts to get someone to hand over their ticket..but I digress
T
Tony
Guest
Maybe you could explain why all passengers would always be more smarter than the engineer, conductor, and all the attendants on the train?
I would leave the decision to "pull the cord" or not, to those with the experience, the training, and the status of the current situation.
Kevin L.
Service Attendant
That kind of attitude leads to inaction, which is worse than doing something. The bystander effect kills.
Sadly, in the previous comments a hypothetical fight/murderer was mentioned as an on-board scenario. Sadly, more than 90% of people will just run away or ignore such a situation. A fair number of people here said that they would evacuate the train, which is all fine and good, except for the people who have been cornered by or already slain by, Amtrak Johnny.
The somewhat recent Greyhound bus murder, where the asian guy used a "rambo knife" to kill a seatmate, and out of a busload of witnesses, no one tried to stop him. All the passengers and driver fled the train, and then were praised as being "heroic" for leaving the train and later disabling and barricading it to lock the murderer in. During this time, the nutcase severed the head of his former seatmate and ran around with it, taunting police and passengers outside.
"Evil will prevail when good does not stand against it"
Sometimes, I wonder how police don't have more "accidental" shootings when apprehending suspects. You're running around with a knife 1/4th your height, wailing like a banshee, and carrying around a head, so we'll just arrest you and shove you in a jail with climate control, 3 free meals a day, a free gym, and HBO? I don't think so, though I already know that I wouldn't make a good police officer.
Again, the people who cut and ran were lauded, and a guy was hacked to death right in front of them. When "heroes" set new land speed records in fleeing from trouble that they could have easily stopped, my hope for the world goes down the drain.
Sadly, in the previous comments a hypothetical fight/murderer was mentioned as an on-board scenario. Sadly, more than 90% of people will just run away or ignore such a situation. A fair number of people here said that they would evacuate the train, which is all fine and good, except for the people who have been cornered by or already slain by, Amtrak Johnny.
The somewhat recent Greyhound bus murder, where the asian guy used a "rambo knife" to kill a seatmate, and out of a busload of witnesses, no one tried to stop him. All the passengers and driver fled the train, and then were praised as being "heroic" for leaving the train and later disabling and barricading it to lock the murderer in. During this time, the nutcase severed the head of his former seatmate and ran around with it, taunting police and passengers outside.
"Evil will prevail when good does not stand against it"
Sometimes, I wonder how police don't have more "accidental" shootings when apprehending suspects. You're running around with a knife 1/4th your height, wailing like a banshee, and carrying around a head, so we'll just arrest you and shove you in a jail with climate control, 3 free meals a day, a free gym, and HBO? I don't think so, though I already know that I wouldn't make a good police officer.
Again, the people who cut and ran were lauded, and a guy was hacked to death right in front of them. When "heroes" set new land speed records in fleeing from trouble that they could have easily stopped, my hope for the world goes down the drain.
Yes, I was able to not mutter "idiots" under my breath. Instead I said, in a normal tone of voice, "That's not a curtain, you f***ing moron." The twits were right in front of me, but totally self-involved and oblivious. An excerpt from my trip report:
TWITS ON A TRAIN
At Irvine a Gang of Four boarded the BC car and occupied a quad set of facing seats a couple rows in front of me. By this time BC was around 3/4-7/8 full, and Coach was a total zoo. [EDIT: By end of the line at SAN, BC was down to 9 people - I counted.] The Gang of Four was noisy and obnoxious right off the bat.
South of Capistrano the rail line begins running on the coast. The Gang of Four consisted of two females and two males. One of the females was bothered by the sun's direct glare, said "Let's pull down the curtain," grabbed the RED EMERGENCY EXIT handle on the upper frame of her window, and gave it a good tug. Down came the rubber stripping. Rather than informing crew of the mistake, the Gang of Four elected to start playing really crappy music loud and sing along with it. After a time, during which the stripping sagged further and I was hoping the window would fall in and hit the clowns, the conductor passed through, told the Gang of Four to kill the tunes, and noticed the window. For this he was greeted with a barrage of derision and snide insults from a male member of the group.
The conductor was a better man than me, cuz I woulda put them off the train at Oceanside and made them fend for themselves to get to Solana Beach, their destination.
Full report: Twits On A Train
haolerider
Conductor
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2004
- Messages
- 1,436
I think you have things a bit mixed up. You mention the unfortunate killing on a bus and then reference people leaving a train! I am not sure what you would have done in the face of an obviously disturbed and most likely psychotic person with a large knife, but I know I probably would not have tried to disarm the nut case in the interest of self preservation. I am not (nor are most people) trained to take this kind of action and I doubt if you are either. The world will be OK without most people acting like a super-hero!That kind of attitude leads to inaction, which is worse than doing something. The bystander effect kills.
Sadly, in the previous comments a hypothetical fight/murderer was mentioned as an on-board scenario. Sadly, more than 90% of people will just run away or ignore such a situation. A fair number of people here said that they would evacuate the train, which is all fine and good, except for the people who have been cornered by or already slain by, Amtrak Johnny.
The somewhat recent Greyhound bus murder, where the asian guy used a "rambo knife" to kill a seatmate, and out of a busload of witnesses, no one tried to stop him. All the passengers and driver fled the train, and then were praised as being "heroic" for leaving the train and later disabling and barricading it to lock the murderer in. During this time, the nutcase severed the head of his former seatmate and ran around with it, taunting police and passengers outside.
"Evil will prevail when good does not stand against it"
Sometimes, I wonder how police don't have more "accidental" shootings when apprehending suspects. You're running around with a knife 1/4th your height, wailing like a banshee, and carrying around a head, so we'll just arrest you and shove you in a jail with climate control, 3 free meals a day, a free gym, and HBO? I don't think so, though I already know that I wouldn't make a good police officer.
Again, the people who cut and ran were lauded, and a guy was hacked to death right in front of them. When "heroes" set new land speed records in fleeing from trouble that they could have easily stopped, my hope for the world goes down the drain.
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Joel N. Weber II
Engineer
I certainly think that if one can find a crew member quickly, letting the crew handle things is the right plan.
If I were at the back of the last car of a train, and there was a fire in that car that was spreading towards the rear of the train that looked likely to engulf me in flames within the next minute, and the fire was preventing me from safely reaching any crew member, it is not clear to me that jumping from a moving train or just waiting to be engulfed by the flames would be a better choice than forcing the train to stop.
Yes, exactly. When the engineer applies the brakes he reduces the air in the hose running from car to car. Pull the cord, you empty the air out of that hose. Uncouple the cars and you break that hose, again emptying the air out of the hose and applying the brakes.
So in that scenario earlier where a seperation was discussed, if for some odd reason the doesn't apply the brakes, it's highly unlikely that pulling the cord is going to apply the brakes.
MattW
Conductor
Er, I know normally when the hoses separate they let the air off and the brakes come on, but what about at the end of the car? Do they like back connect the hoses, or is there some kind of valve that prevents the unconnected hoses from letting the air off. I have never seen an Amtrak with EOTD/FRED, but I could have missed it. So if the hoses do have a valve that is normally closed when they're not connected, then would pulling the emergency brake let the air out?
Yea, It's late and I'm rambling, so sorry
Yea, It's late and I'm rambling, so sorry
Joel N. Weber II
Engineer
This Wikipedia article has a good deal of detail on this subject.
profwebs
Service Attendant
I have opinions on both of your arguments. I would like to think that I would be able to step in and be "the super hero" in a situation like the Greyhound incident. However, without being in the situation I can't say for sure what I would do. I do know what it is like when the fight or flight response kicks in, and depending on the situation, most people will run.I think you have things a bit mixed up. You mention the unfortunate killing on a bus and then reference people leaving a train! I am not sure what you would have done in the face of an obviously disturbed and most likely psychotic person with a large knife, but I know I probably would not have tried to disarm the nut case in the interest of self preservation. I am not (nor are most people) trained to take this kind of action and I doubt if you are either. The world will be OK without most people acting like a super-hero!That kind of attitude leads to inaction, which is worse than doing something. The bystander effect kills.
Sadly, in the previous comments a hypothetical fight/murderer was mentioned as an on-board scenario. Sadly, more than 90% of people will just run away or ignore such a situation. A fair number of people here said that they would evacuate the train, which is all fine and good, except for the people who have been cornered by or already slain by, Amtrak Johnny.
The somewhat recent Greyhound bus murder, where the asian guy used a "rambo knife" to kill a seatmate, and out of a busload of witnesses, no one tried to stop him. All the passengers and driver fled the train, and then were praised as being "heroic" for leaving the train and later disabling and barricading it to lock the murderer in. During this time, the nutcase severed the head of his former seatmate and ran around with it, taunting police and passengers outside.
"Evil will prevail when good does not stand against it"
Sometimes, I wonder how police don't have more "accidental" shootings when apprehending suspects. You're running around with a knife 1/4th your height, wailing like a banshee, and carrying around a head, so we'll just arrest you and shove you in a jail with climate control, 3 free meals a day, a free gym, and HBO? I don't think so, though I already know that I wouldn't make a good police officer.
Again, the people who cut and ran were lauded, and a guy was hacked to death right in front of them. When "heroes" set new land speed records in fleeing from trouble that they could have easily stopped, my hope for the world goes down the drain.
What would the world be like if the passengers of flight 93 hadn't taken matters into their own hands? Should they have waited for trained people to help them? These days, I think we need to be more vigilant and be prepared to step in.
- Joined
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- 743
Oh, please, that old "passenger thought it was the window shade/curtain" canard has been around forever. The handle is nowhere near the window, and this tired old urban legend has been around the track more times than anyone can remember. Let's not repat it here.
amtrakwolverine
Engineer
flight 93 had box cutters not swords. Your telling me that YOU would try to disarm a man swinging a 3 foot long sword around like a samurai warrior. im sorry but the passengers did the right thing getting off that bus and trapping him.how many more people would have died or ended up missing arms and stuff trying to stop him on that greyhound bus. the only way to disarm a person with a sword is either a sharp shooter or a fire hose on full power.
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