Sunset Limited's Future

[henryj]

I posted this on another forum, but it deserves to be posted in this thread as well.
In an ideal world, they should have a daily NOL-ORL train and something like a 3X weekly NOL-JAX train which would connect with the Silver Star for points North. I made a proposed schedule for both.

Gulf Coast Limited

Tri weekly

Dep NOL: 6:00am

Arr JAX: 9:30pm

Dep JAX: 8:10am

Arr NOL: 10:50pm

The above schedules would connect to/from the Silver Star in JAX. Could be a small train, just a couple of Amfleet 2 coaches and a cafe car. It'd give the people living in Gulfport/Biloxi, Mobile, Pensacola, Tallahassee, etc. expanded access to the Amtrak system.

The daily Gulf Wind would dep. NOL at 5:50pm allowing for faster connections from the SL and CONO and would serve the Gulf Coast at better times...on the return, train departs ORL around 5:00pm and arrives NOL at 11:10am...this would require adjusting the WB #1 schedule out of NOL to, say, 1:15pm....this later time out of ORL would, again, provide service for all Gulf Coast markets (Pensacola, just due to its location along the route, would get the least desirebale times, but it wouldn't be served at 1/2/3/4am at least) at better times.

In any case, the chances for two trains are probably slim and none, and slim just left the building, but it's fun to think outside the box a bit.

I get the feeling that we should see some form of restored svc between NOL-ORL in a year's time.

The chances of this are "slim and none" because you don't have a clue as to what the timing over that route is. It's 617 miles from New Orleans to Jacksonville and it takes the train 17 hours. It is another 147 miles from JAX to ORL and that takes another 3 1/2 hours. So your train leaving NOL at 6AM, a time so early that no one would use it, would put the train into JAX at midnight and ORL at 4AM. A ridiculous schedule. The return leaving at 8:10AM from JAX would not get to NOL until midnight and would have to have left ORL at 4AM. The only schedule that works between ORL, JAX and NOL is an overnight one. WB you have to leave ORL around midday for a morning arrival in NOL to make all the connections. EB you have to leave late a night arriving at JAX the next afternoon and ORL that night. Other than that you are talking corridor type coach trains that only go part way. The current Sunset schedule arriving in NOL at 4PM is an abortion caused by the UP foul ups and extreme padding and needs to be changed back to it's original pre-Katrina schedule which would have it arrive in NOL late evening.

 

[MrFSS]

There's no way for a train going from the East Coast to CHI can stop in Ohio with daylight calling hours.

I don't understand this statement. If the Pennsylvanian was overnight between New York and Pittsburgh, then you serve Ohio and on to Chicago in daylight hours both directions. The Pennsy ran trains this way for years. Likewise on the NYC route if you ran overnight between Buffalo and New York then you served Ohio and on to chicago in daylight hours both ways. The NYC ran schedules like this also. If you get a second train between New York and Chicago they might try putting one of them on this kind of schedule.

But what time do you leave NYP? It would be close to midnight, and I promise you then everybody in PA would complain because they're serviced in the middle of the night-- either way one of the two states has to be in the dark I am afraid.

Check out this 1949 PRR Table. Pretty decent depart from NYC and pass through Ohio and Indiana times.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The Admiral doesn't seem like a bad train, can we revive it?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

lets be realistic about it- the Three Rivers and Silver Star's separate routing were probably the most redundant of Amtrak's long distance routes- the stations lost are all within an hours drive of other stations.

I would have to disagree regarding the Three Rivers. Granted it was a second class train and I don't even remember whether its eastern terminus was Philadelphia or NY; but a second CHI - NY train would be high on my wish list for new routes, but not necessarily another one stopping at Cleveland in the middle of the night.

Also, one hour away by car is not close to my way of thinking. I seem to recall a recent thread where you took a courageous stand (amen brother!) against the prevailing idea that any method of transportation other than an automobile is akin to a commie pinko plot. I believe you were disagreeing with someone who thought a station should out in sprawl-land, not be near downtown.

You misunderstand me. For Chicago alone, I want 3 daily trains on the Broadway, three daily trains on the Water Level Route, and atleast one train running the Cutoff. I want Amtrak trains running all over the place at all hours. I think the system should be about the size it was before the Carter cuts in foot print, with atleast two round trips per route.

HOWEVER, if we are going to cut routes, cutting the Three Rivers, which as you said was bracketed by the Cardinal, Capitol, and Lake Shore, makes a hell lot more sense then cutting, say, the Crescent. We lost one, which may be coming back- i've heard rumors of a resurrected Broadway Limited being a priority in Amtrak- but trust me, we had to lose a few Viewliner routes, and as you said, the Three Rivers was traversing territory already relatively well covered. Compared to, say, Wyoming.

The cuts they made were the right ones, given that they needed to make cuts. And they did.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The Admiral doesn't seem like a bad train, can we revive it?

Maybe after they bring back the Broadway.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

You misunderstand me. For Chicago alone, I want 3 daily trains on the Broadway, three daily trains on the Water Level Route, and atleast one train running the Cutoff. I want Amtrak trains running all over the place at all hours. I think the system should be about the size it was before the Carter cuts in foot print, with atleast two round trips per route.

Can Amtrak get the ridership to justify that many trains without new HSR alignments?

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The Admiral doesn't seem like a bad train, can we revive it?

Maybe after they bring back the Broadway.

I'd take the Broadway IF they made a couple more stops in Ohio with full service-- coaches, sleepers, and at least one checked baggage stop before CLE.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Pfui. You'd take the Broadway either way. I'll stand for the routes getting there first. Amtrak is still in **** shape. Do you realize the Amtrak hocked their most valuable building, New York City Penn Station, to make pay roll? We're far from that now, but the effects of Great Idiot Warrington will be with us for some time.

If we can cover the major cities of Ohio with ANY trains, if we cover all the US cities that should have trains with trains, if we freakin' cover PHOENIX, we can start talking about convenient times for non-terminus cities. Get the trains running to them. Then we can figure out how to have trains at sane hours.

 

[cpamtfan]

I was just thinking of a train like the Gotham Limited, exept it would lave NYP around 10pm, make Phili by 11, then would only make Harrisburg, Altoona, and Johnstown to Pittsburgh, then at PGH, it would spit, with one going either via the ex B&O or that windy route to Lima, Fort Wayne, etc. and another section going to Cleveland, Toledo, up to Detroit where it would pick up local coaches to Chicago. I'm not sure what equipment or which stations it would sstop at. Thats my idea.

cpamtfan-Peter

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Pfui. You'd take the Broadway either way. I'll stand for the routes getting there first. Amtrak is still in **** shape. Do you realize the Amtrak hocked their most valuable building, New York City Penn Station, to make pay roll? We're far from that now, but the effects of Great Idiot Warrington will be with us for some time.
If we can cover the major cities of Ohio with ANY trains, if we cover all the US cities that should have trains with trains, if we freakin' cover PHOENIX, we can start talking about convenient times for non-terminus cities. Get the trains running to them. Then we can figure out how to have trains at sane hours.

Excuse me, I'm sorry that Ohio cities aren't as big as Phoenix but let's look that Columbus has NO service, and Akron and Canton metro areas have to be served by ALC. Cin-city only has the Cardinal, three times a week, and Cleveland and ALC (which serve most of OH's population) have horrible calling times and have HAD horrible calling times for years.

Frankly Ohio-ians are fed up with it. Strickland, the most popular gov. in the nation (last time I checked approval ratings for govs.) is taking heat from everybody for not getting a proper rail service set up in Ohio, that's why he lobbied hard with Senator Brown to get funding for the Tri-C corridor which is part of the HSR plan.

 

[AlanB]

Pfui. You'd take the Broadway either way. I'll stand for the routes getting there first. Amtrak is still in **** shape. Do you realize the Amtrak hocked their most valuable building, New York City Penn Station, to make pay roll? We're far from that now, but the effects of Great Idiot Warrington will be with us for some time.
If we can cover the major cities of Ohio with ANY trains, if we cover all the US cities that should have trains with trains, if we freakin' cover PHOENIX, we can start talking about convenient times for non-terminus cities. Get the trains running to them. Then we can figure out how to have trains at sane hours.

Excuse me, I'm sorry that Ohio cities aren't as big as Phoenix but let's look that Columbus has NO service, and Akron and Canton metro areas have to be served by ALC. Cin-city only has the Cardinal, three times a week, and Cleveland and ALC (which serve most of OH's population) have horrible calling times and have HAD horrible calling times for years.

Frankly Ohio-ians are fed up with it. Strickland, the most popular gov. in the nation (last time I checked approval ratings for govs.) is taking heat from everybody for not getting a proper rail service set up in Ohio, that's why he lobbied hard with Senator Brown to get funding for the Tri-C corridor which is part of the HSR plan.

I believe that you're misreading GML's statements ALC, he's all for increasing service to Ohio and it's cities. In fact he took heat for suggesting that there ought to be many more trains running through Ohio than the two and a half that currently ply the rails in Ohio.

What he is saying is that first we need to cover as many cities as possible first with any form of service regardless of calling times, then come back and figure out how to give them service at decent hours.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

What he is saying is that first we need to cover as many cities as possible first with any form of service regardless of calling times, then come back and figure out how to give them service at decent hours.

Yes he is, the problem is the Broadway Limited in the TT printed here in this thread didn't offer much service in Ohio than the Three Rivers or the present situation does.

If somebody has a TT that shows the Broadway Limited making calls in Ohio with full service-- preferably the Amtrak incarnation of it-- I would love to see it.

 

[AlanB]

I'm not sure what the B'way Limited did under Amtrak, but the 3R's made stops in Youngstown, Akron, and Fostoria.

 

[jis]

I'm not sure what the B'way Limited did under Amtrak, but the 3R's made stops in Youngstown, Akron, and Fostoria.

Actually just before being taken off, the Broadway Limited had stops at Youngstown, Akron, Fostoria, Napanee and Garrett when it was re-routed onto B&O after the PRR line through Ft. Wayne was downgraded by Conrail. Before that of course it had stops at Canton, Crestline, Lima, Fort Wayne, Valparaiso. I had the good fortune of riding each of those incarnations of the Broadway Limited.

I do have timetables of each incarnation, but not in scanned form that can be posted here.

 

[jis]

OK here is the PGH -CHI timetable circa 1990, of Train 40/41 Broadway Limited in its via B&O incarnation:

Pittsburgh	 00:11
Youngstown	 02:39
Akron		  03:49
Fostoria	   05:49
Garrett		07:29
Nappanee	   08:14
H-Whiting	  08:39
Chicago		09:29

In the reverse direction:

Chicago		20:15
H-Whiting	  20:42
Nappanee	   23:02
Garrett		23:54
Fostoria	   01:25
Akron		  03:30
Youngstown	 04:40
Pittsburgh	 07:25

The consist of Train 40 on 12/10/90 was:

2x F40

6x MHC

1x Bag-Dorm

4x Heritage Coach

1x Amfleet Lounge

1x Diner

1x Slumbercoach

1x Heritage Sleeper

The train ran more or less on schedule all the way and arrived in New York 5 minutes ahead of schedule.

Enjoy

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Reasonable call times too!

 

[jis]

And for completeness here is train 40/41 Broadway Limited schedule under Amtrak circa 1979 via PRR route between PGH and CHI:

Train 41:

Pittsburgh	23:59
Canton		02:13
Crestline	 04:17
Lima		  05:45
Fort Wayne	05:53
Valparaiso	07:50
Gary		  08:20
Chicago	   09:05

Train 40:

Chicago	   16:00
Gary		  16:34
Valparaiso	16:55
For Wayne	 18:50
Lima		  21:02
Crestline	 22:40
Canton		00:25
Pittsburgh	02:55

BTW in this incarnation a New York section (which did not go to Philly 30th St.) and a Washington section (which did go through Philly 30th St.) joined together at Harrisburg to make the train that went to Chicago. Needless to say, there was no Capitol Limited at this time. The New York section ran non-stop from North Philadelphia to Harrisburg. The Washington section stopped at Philly 30th St, Paoli and Lancaster.

As for how the heck this thread on the future of Sunset Limited became focused on Broadway Limited, I have no clue. I am just going with the flow here trying to provide info that Alan said he did not have about the Broadway.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

You know the Canton station (both of them) are still intact, the one on the old B&O branch line was recently refurbished to let the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railway train stop there... their normal consist is an F-unit, four or five Budd coaches, and an older switcher.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

What he is saying is that first we need to cover as many cities as possible first with any form of service regardless of calling times, then come back and figure out how to give them service at decent hours.

Yes he is, the problem is the Broadway Limited in the TT printed here in this thread didn't offer much service in Ohio than the Three Rivers or the present situation does.

If somebody has a TT that shows the Broadway Limited making calls in Ohio with full service-- preferably the Amtrak incarnation of it-- I would love to see it.

The Broadway Limited MrFSS posted is a different train than I'm talking about. I wish we could bring back that train, too, but there is no chance of that. The Broadway Limited whose schedule was posted by MrFSS was an all-Pullman, very limited service crack express, the famous primary competitor to the even more famous New York Central 20th Century Limited. The train I'm referring to is Amtrak's Broadway Limited, which shares a name and the routing east of Pittsburgh, and very little else.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

What he is saying is that first we need to cover as many cities as possible first with any form of service regardless of calling times, then come back and figure out how to give them service at decent hours.

Yes he is, the problem is the Broadway Limited in the TT printed here in this thread didn't offer much service in Ohio than the Three Rivers or the present situation does.

If somebody has a TT that shows the Broadway Limited making calls in Ohio with full service-- preferably the Amtrak incarnation of it-- I would love to see it.

The Broadway Limited MrFSS posted is a different train than I'm talking about. I wish we could bring back that train, too, but there is no chance of that. The Broadway Limited whose schedule was posted by MrFSS was an all-Pullman, very limited service crack express, the famous primary competitor to the even more famous New York Central 20th Century Limited. The train I'm referring to is Amtrak's Broadway Limited, which shares a name and the routing east of Pittsburgh, and very little else.

If it stopped in Akron, with checked baggage, or ALC and Akron, or Akron and Lima... Anything at this point.

 

[jis]

If it stopped in Akron, with checked baggage, or ALC and Akron, or Akron and Lima... Anything at this point.

The Broadway Limited was a PRR train and ran for most of its existence on the PRR Fort Wayne Line, both during the PRR incarnation(s) and the Amtrak incarnation, and hence did not have any chance of passing through or stopping at Akron. Only for a short period of time before its discontinuance and after the PRR Fort Wayne Line was downgraded by Conrail, it ran on the ex-B&O Line through Akron, and it is during that period that it stopped at Akron. Actually, even then initially it did not stop at Akron because Akron did not have a station ready in time. But when it ran on PRR it stopped at Lima and that was a baggage stop for quite a while into Amtrak.

BTW in the 1990 timetable Akron is marked as the station for Canton and Fostoria as the station for Lima. The schedule that I posted above for the via Akron version of Broadway went into effect on Nov 11, 1990. Before that it ran via Fort Wayne.

Initially it also did this interesting move in PGH to get onto the CSX line. It backed out of PGH station to the point where the PRR and B&O line cross each other and used the connection that is currently used by the Capitol Limited to get from CSX to NS to get to PGH station, in the reverse direction to get onto CSX, and then proceed west on it. Sometime later, but within a year, a connection was built between Conrail and CSX in the vicinity of New Castle that allowed the train to proceed west out of PGH and do the switchover at New Castle.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Akron is the more logical choice for a station stop in that area. It is the biggest city after Youngstown and Cleveland and is home to one of the state's larger, growing colleges: Akron University. The station is still there, the Coke Express runs though the main there and I used to see if every so often. It has remarkable baggage handling potential and two lines, with two platforms. Though the station itself is in disrepair.

Canton has two stations, one on a small and old branch oft referred to as "The Nimishillen Branch" as it runs parallel to the Nimishillen creek/river. As I said before, it was recently restored to serve the CVSRR which IIRC also makes a run through Akron. The other station is in downtown Canton off of the NS main in that area-- you can tell it hasn't been used in ages but it would serve anybody better than ALC currently does.

 

[ScottC4746]

OK...This thread is totally derailed. What started off as a Sunset Limited thread has gone onto a tangent on all other lines. I am surprised the moderator did not move those postings elsewhere.

 

[AlanB]

OK...This thread is totally derailed. What started off as a Sunset Limited thread has gone onto a tangent on all other lines. I am surprised the moderator did not move those postings elsewhere.

I'm not surprised at all, since that's how we do things around here, pretty much letting the topics wander where they may.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

OK...This thread is totally derailed. What started off as a Sunset Limited thread has gone onto a tangent on all other lines. I am surprised the moderator did not move those postings elsewhere.

I'm not surprised at all, since that's how we do things around here, pretty much letting the topics wander where they may.

Yeah, typically whenever the SSL comes up people talk about where resources are better needed, and everybody usually has a different idea. As you can all tell, I am a huge advocate for Ohio and think that Amtrak with its horrid calling hours has kind of hurt chances of filling seats and esp. rooms... who wants a room from ALC-WAS? You board at 3AM... and rooms on the CL are rarely filled.