Sunset East: Good news for a change?

[NativeSon5859]

When is the stub train supposed to arrive and depart SAS, and the same for the Eagle? I had thought that there would be an overnight stay in SAS to connect at least in one direction.

No, not at all. They were planning on direct cross-platform transfer, with through cars a possibility as equipment allowed.

I heard it was going to be an hour and a half connection time in SAS. So you're looking at roughly a 10:00pm to 11:30pm transfer heading to LAX, and a 6:30am to 8:00am transfer heading to NOL. That's all fine and dandy except when the Eagle arrives two hours late from Chicago, or late from LAX. Then you're looking at an extended connection in SAS, which has a very small station, and on the way back an arrival into NOL well after midnight, assuming the stub train will be held for the train coming in from LAX. So the "cross platform transfer" could be that in theory, but it could also end up being quite the ordeal.

 

[wayman]

Convenient across the platform transfers, assuming that they ever happen in San Antonio (they don't happen elsewhere on Amtrak), aren't going to sell the current riders.

(Emphasis added)

Alan, what about the Capitol Limited-to-Pennsylvanian (and vice versa) in Pittsburgh, and the New Haven transfers between the shuttles and the Northeast Regional?

I've found the former deadly, and the latter quite reasonable.

My sense from having seen it in action once a few years ago was that the cross-platform transfer at Albany between the LSL and the Boston-stub had riders, and they weren't particularly grumpy. Now, I didn't talk to anyone who'd had a sleeper from Chicago to Albany and had to downgrade to coach at that point -- those folks might have been grumpy. I don't know.

Of course, now it's a join/split operation, and I would guess that no riders were disappointed by that change and many saw it as a big improvement. But it didn't appear to be a total failure when it was a cross-platform-transfer operation.

 

[Chris J.]

My sense from having seen it in action once a few years ago was that the cross-platform transfer at Albany between the LSL and the Boston-stub had riders, and they weren't particularly grumpy. Now, I didn't talk to anyone who'd had a sleeper from Chicago to Albany and had to downgrade to coach at that point -- those folks might have been grumpy. I don't know.
Of course, now it's a join/split operation, and I would guess that no riders were disappointed by that change and many saw it as a big improvement. But it didn't appear to be a total failure when it was a cross-platform-transfer operation.

I didn't find it too bad; checked bags were transferred for you and and you didn't have to downgrade to coach as business class was available on the Albany - Boston train.

 

[Hytec]

My sense from having seen it in action once a few years ago was that the cross-platform transfer at Albany between the LSL and the Boston-stub had riders, and they weren't particularly grumpy. Now, I didn't talk to anyone who'd had a sleeper from Chicago to Albany and had to downgrade to coach at that point -- those folks might have been grumpy. I don't know.
Of course, now it's a join/split operation, and I would guess that no riders were disappointed by that change and many saw it as a big improvement. But it didn't appear to be a total failure when it was a cross-platform-transfer operation.

I didn't find it too bad; checked bags were transferred for you and and you didn't have to downgrade to coach as business class was available on the Albany - Boston train.

Chris, your experience with being downgraded to Business Class from Albany to Boston was only for a 5-1/2 hour trip, which would be reasonable, though not as pleasant as the sleeper segment. Whereas an ex-Sunset stub train between NOL and SAS will still be 15 hours regardless of schedule, with some being in the wee hours. Even if Amtrak offers a Business Class with the stub train, more than 6-8 hours in one seat with no privacy would be tiring, and 15 hours would be unacceptable. I have enjoyed Amtrak sleeper travel for business for the past 20 years and am looking forward to a NOL/LAX trip in May. However, if Amtrak makes the Sunset/Eagle change before June 1, I probably will cancel the train reservation and fly, or possibly drive, neither being enjoyable.

 

[coxm50]

When is the stub train supposed to arrive and depart SAS, and the same for the Eagle? I had thought that there would be an overnight stay in SAS to connect at least in one direction.

No, not at all. They were planning on direct cross-platform transfer, with through cars a possibility as equipment allowed.

Is the cross platform transfer only going to and from LAX to NOL or also NOL to FTW and CHI?

 

[jis]

Is the cross platform transfer only going to and from LAX to NOL or also NOL to FTW and CHI?

Only for LAX to points east of SAS, like NOL and Houston.

 

[jis]

And now Emmett Fremaux has publicly stated that Amtrak will free up cars from this change, which brings me right back to the fact that Amtrak could accomplish daily running of the Sunset without needing to go to this Stub train plan if the couple in some of the wreck repairs.

Emmett Fremaux is a good guy and he is possibly one of the best things that happened to Amtrak in Kummant's era. It defies all logic why Gunn was unable to understand that his marketing department was completely broken and failed to get rid of the leadership there. But that is a separate discussion. I actually had a long chat with Emmett regarding increasing capacity on the NEC Regionals which back then were down to 5 to 6 cars. We talked at length about price elasticity and how increasing capacity would reduce cost of tickets which would increase ridership which would increase revenue faster than cost of ops thus creating a better result on the bottom line. He did follow through on that one, and the Regionals are now upto 7 to 9 cars.

Coming back to this discussion, I would like to see the arithmetic backing up this claim. I bet the additional new cars are assumed to be coming into the pool from TIGER refurbs. There are not enough freed cars to be had by rearranging these two trains to achieve full daily service to both NOL and CHI from LAX including Sleepers, and Diners.

 

[had8ley]

If something gets written into the Surface Transportation Bill, then with or without funding, Amtrak will have no choice to restore service east of NOL. Failure to do so would be a violation of law and could potentially see all Federal funding for Amtrak cut.
However, it won't be all that easy to get something written into that bill. Not impossible, but not easy either.

I know Corrine Brown...they can have all the Town Hall meetings they want; they can put derails on the CSXT track; they can drain the mules of diesel but if she says it will run... IT WILL RUN...end of story. Only tree Amtrak can hide behind is that Positive Train Control must be in place by 2012; they'll be crying for money to fund it (don't think the CSXT is going to volunteer any bucks for a pax train) worst than somebody who doesn't have change for a pay toilet.

 

[RailEngr08]

I have read this entire topic thread and have just one question for you guys. In October when the sunset starts running daily out out NOL will this help or hurt the chances of sunset returning to the eastern portion?

 

[MrEd]

I got some good news from new orleans, the city is pushing to get the sunset limited running to the east.

http://www.wdsu.com/news/22790347/detail.html

won't be long now

***********

However, since the storm, the part of the line that ran from New Orleans to Orlando is no longer in operation.

“I think the line needs to be established. It will definitely help out a lot with the communication and getting more people over there and getting people over to us,” Marks said.

The New Orleans City Council agrees, and is trying to change that. For the council, the battle to restore the line between the “Big Easy” and the “Happiest Place on Earth” has been a frustrating fight.

Councilman Arnie Fielkow said he thinks the battle lies in Washington.

************

 

[SunsetLimited01]

Hopefully they get something east of New Orleans. I could deal with Tri-weekly service any day until it comes time to upgrade to daily. Question how many sets would it require to run the line from Los Angeles to Orlando isn't it 7-8 sets or something like that?

 

[NativeSon5859]

I got some good news from new orleans, the city is pushing to get the sunset limited running to the east.
http://www.wdsu.com/news/22790347/detail.html

won't be long now

***********

However, since the storm, the part of the line that ran from New Orleans to Orlando is no longer in operation.

“I think the line needs to be established. It will definitely help out a lot with the communication and getting more people over there and getting people over to us,” Marks said.

The New Orleans City Council agrees, and is trying to change that. For the council, the battle to restore the line between the “Big Easy” and the “Happiest Place on Earth” has been a frustrating fight.

Councilman Arnie Fielkow said he thinks the battle lies in Washington.

************

Todd Stennis of Amtrak was at the meeting and was supposed to talk. I wonder what he had to say. Probably "show us the money, we'll show you the train"? Come on Corrine Brown...it's time to play hardball...the Gulf South has been hoodwinked for the past five years...put the restoration resolution in and force them to restore it.

 

[henryj]

Whereas an ex-Sunset stub train between NOL and SAS will still be 15 hours regardless of schedule, with some being in the wee hours. Even if Amtrak offers a Business Class with the stub train, more than 6-8 hours in one seat with no privacy would be tiring, and 15 hours would be unacceptable.

People keep throwing out this 15 hour number as if everyone that boards in San Antonio or New Orleans is going all the way. If you look at Amtrak's ridership numbers you see that the train makes many stops along the way and people get on and off at each one. So many passengers will not be riding for the full route and Houston, the largest city in Texas will be right in the middle. The schedule that has been talked about is for an 8am departure at each end and a 10pm arrival at the other end. That is not in the 'wee' hours as you alluded too. The current 3 times a week schedule is in the wee hours and thankfully that will be gone. Superliner seats are very comfortable whether business class or just coach so I don't see a problem with that at all. A through sleeper from NOL to LAX takes a least five cars. Please tell me where you are going to find five extra superliner sleepers. Finally, Amtrak has stated that they plan to put on a through sleeper as soon as extra equipment becomes available. Texas has not had daily service of any kind between SAS-HOU-NOL for over 40 years. Personally I am excited about this proposal and hope it is implemented as soon as possible. I think it will generate a lot of local intrastate traffic in addition to the through passengers. It will only be Texas' second corridor style train. The Heartland Flyer being the first.

 

[AlanB]

It will only be Texas' second corridor style train. The Heartland Flyer being the first.

And who pays for that train?

It's not Amtrak. It's Texas and Oklahoma.

And I was already afraid of that happening when we had a big topic on the proposed changes 6 months ago. Now with Mr. Boardman's response to someone wanting a Chicago to Florida train, "that it will only happen when the states pay for it", I'm even more worried.

Sorry!

 

[AlanB]

Alan, the Cardinal varies in several respects (run time of the short leg, the size of the station its transfering at, and so on) that I don't consider it more then, perhaps, back up support for your point. Pretending the Cardinal doesn't exist, what other information do you demonstrably have to prove your perspective? I haven't heard anything than conjectures, opinions, and speculation on your part on this subject.
Do you have any data to back this up besides the Cardinal?

So let me see if I understand the rules correctly. It's ok to use Chicago with its station size and transfers as a comparison to tiny San Antonio, but it's not ok to use DC because the size of that station is too big?

And it's funny, but my entire problem with this potential change is that I haven't seen any data from Amtrak or anyone that proves that this will be a good thing. Everyone acts like it will be a good thing, but I've not seen a single number or stat that shows that it will be a good thing.

However, since you don't like the Cardinal and since someone mentioned the Boston LSL, do some searches on OTOL. There have been a few stories, which may or may not still be available, that show that ridership dropped when they cut the through cars. Ridership is now back up with the restoration of the through cars.

And while I've no time to go looking for them, over the years I've seen many commuter surveys that have suggested that aside from on time performance, one of the biggest things commuters want is a one seat ride. This is why NJT built the Midtown Direct connection and why the LIRR is currently building the East Side Access.

I don't want to be Mr. Negative here, and part of me hopes that I'm indeed wrong. But again I've seen no numbers from Amtrak that show that this will indeed be a positive for the riders, frankly all signs point to this being a positive for Amtrak only. They get rid of the dreaded Sunset Limited name that everyone associates with failure, they get to start charging Texas for the stub train eventually, they save on some equipment, and they quiet a very vocal railfan group in California. If someone has numbers that show otherwise, I'll gladly shut up. But until then, I'll continue to say that I believe that this is a bad idea. And that's not nostalgia talking.

 

[henryj]

But again I've seen no numbers from Amtrak that show that this will indeed be a positive for the riders, frankly all signs point to this being a positive for Amtrak only. They get rid of the dreaded Sunset Limited name that everyone associates with failure, they get to start charging Texas for the stub train eventually, they save on some equipment, and they quiet a very vocal railfan group in California. If someone has numbers that show otherwise, I'll gladly shut up. But until then, I'll continue to say that I believe that this is a bad idea. And that's not nostalgia talking.

Apparently the TEMPO people that manage the Eagle think this is a good idea and I gather people living in Texas think it's a good idea. You 'aren't from around here' as they say so you just don't and will never understand it. I don't think Amtrak is obligated to 'show you the numbers' just because you pontificate on here. I am sure TEMPO has plenty of numbers as they have been working on this for years. The 'dreaded Sunset Limited' has been limping along three times a week for way too long. It comes through Houston, the largest city in Texas at 4:40am and 9:13pm the few days it operates. Most people don't even know Houston has rail service. TXDOT has set up a rail orientated group to work on future studies and if Amtrak decides to make us pay then we will just have to find a way to do that. It isn't the first and won't be the last corridor train in Texas, but it certainly will start a positive trend for the future.

 

[Hytec]

However, since the storm, the part of the line that ran from New Orleans to Orlando is no longer in operation.

The CSX ROW between New Orleans and Mobile, AL, damaged by hurricane Katrina, was returned to full operation by April, 2006, and is currently running approximately 24 trains each day. The segment of CSX trackage usually mentioned in Sunset-East discussions as prohibitive to re-establishment of the Sunset is the segment between Brewton, AL and Tallahassee, FL. The only reason this segment is mentioned is that it is Dark Territory, i.e. non-signalled. It is, and always has been dispatched by Track Warrant. Dark Territory has become a problem only because of the mandate by Congress that all trackage on which Amtrak trains operate shall be equipped with Positive Train Control by 2012. CSX has no need or desire to install PTC on the segment, so expects Amtrak to pay for the upgrade if the Sunset-East is to be re-established, which is only good business sense.

 

[George Harris]

However, since the storm, the part of the line that ran from New Orleans to Orlando is no longer in operation.

The CSX ROW between New Orleans and Mobile, AL, damaged by hurricane Katrina, was returned to full operation by April, 2006, and is currently running approximately 24 trains each day. The segment of CSX trackage usually mentioned in Sunset-East discussions as prohibitive to re-establishment of the Sunset is the segment between Brewton, AL and Tallahassee, FL. The only reason this segment is mentioned is that it is Dark Territory, i.e. non-signalled. It is, and always has been dispatched by Track Warrant. Dark Territory has become a problem only because of the mandate by Congress that all trackage on which Amtrak trains operate shall be equipped with Positive Train Control by 2012. CSX has no need or desire to install PTC on the segment, so expects Amtrak to pay for the upgrade if the Sunset-East is to be re-established, which is only good business sense.

Let's say this one more time with feeling, because it seems that a lot of people think the Gulf coast rail line is still under water.

New Orleans to Mobile, and on to Flomaton AL is back in full operation and has been since April 2006

Some other portions of the route in the Pensacola vicinity were also knocked out by Katrina, but they were also put back in service about the same time.

The "dark territory" of the route is Flomaton AL - Pensacola FL - Tallahassee FL. Brewton AL is not on this line.

 

[Rob_C]

I just want to know what Amtrak plans to do with all its money once the states are paying for practically every train in the system. Pay CEO's more perhaps? :blink:

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Alan, the Cardinal varies in several respects (run time of the short leg, the size of the station its transfering at, and so on) that I don't consider it more then, perhaps, back up support for your point. Pretending the Cardinal doesn't exist, what other information do you demonstrably have to prove your perspective? I haven't heard anything than conjectures, opinions, and speculation on your part on this subject.
Do you have any data to back this up besides the Cardinal?

So let me see if I understand the rules correctly. It's ok to use Chicago with its station size and transfers as a comparison to tiny San Antonio, but it's not ok to use DC because the size of that station is too big?

And it's funny, but my entire problem with this potential change is that I haven't seen any data from Amtrak or anyone that proves that this will be a good thing. Everyone acts like it will be a good thing, but I've not seen a single number or stat that shows that it will be a good thing.

However, since you don't like the Cardinal and since someone mentioned the Boston LSL, do some searches on OTOL. There have been a few stories, which may or may not still be available, that show that ridership dropped when they cut the through cars. Ridership is now back up with the restoration of the through cars.

And while I've no time to go looking for them, over the years I've seen many commuter surveys that have suggested that aside from on time performance, one of the biggest things commuters want is a one seat ride. This is why NJT built the Midtown Direct connection and why the LIRR is currently building the East Side Access.

I don't want to be Mr. Negative here, and part of me hopes that I'm indeed wrong. But again I've seen no numbers from Amtrak that show that this will indeed be a positive for the riders, frankly all signs point to this being a positive for Amtrak only. They get rid of the dreaded Sunset Limited name that everyone associates with failure, they get to start charging Texas for the stub train eventually, they save on some equipment, and they quiet a very vocal railfan group in California. If someone has numbers that show otherwise, I'll gladly shut up. But until then, I'll continue to say that I believe that this is a bad idea. And that's not nostalgia talking.

I don't despute that a single-seat ride is preferable to a transfer. But would you care to tell me which of the following produced a bigger increase: the Texas Eagle going daily or... the Cardinal being extended to NYC?

 

[AlanB]

I don't despute that a single-seat ride is preferable to a transfer. But would you care to tell me which of the following produced a bigger increase: the Texas Eagle going daily or... the Cardinal being extended to NYC?

There is no point to answering this. First off simply because you already know the answer.

But mainly because it's not a valid and fair comparison. We're not talking about just extending one train or taking another train daily. We're talking about gutting the revenue earning potential of the Sunset Limited to extend the Eagle on a daily basis to LA.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

I just want to know what Amtrak plans to do with all its money once the states are paying for practically every train in the system. Pay CEO's more perhaps? :blink:

send employees to customer service training no more rude as hell employees.

 

[AlanB]

But again I've seen no numbers from Amtrak that show that this will indeed be a positive for the riders, frankly all signs point to this being a positive for Amtrak only. They get rid of the dreaded Sunset Limited name that everyone associates with failure, they get to start charging Texas for the stub train eventually, they save on some equipment, and they quiet a very vocal railfan group in California. If someone has numbers that show otherwise, I'll gladly shut up. But until then, I'll continue to say that I believe that this is a bad idea. And that's not nostalgia talking.

Apparently the TEMPO people that manage the Eagle think this is a good idea and I gather people living in Texas think it's a good idea. You 'aren't from around here' as they say so you just don't and will never understand it. I don't think Amtrak is obligated to 'show you the numbers' just because you pontificate on here. I am sure TEMPO has plenty of numbers as they have been working on this for years. The 'dreaded Sunset Limited' has been limping along three times a week for way too long. It comes through Houston, the largest city in Texas at 4:40am and 9:13pm the few days it operates. Most people don't even know Houston has rail service. TXDOT has set up a rail orientated group to work on future studies and if Amtrak decides to make us pay then we will just have to find a way to do that. It isn't the first and won't be the last corridor train in Texas, but it certainly will start a positive trend for the future.

I'm not asking Amtrak to personally show me the numbers. I'm asking Amtrak to show anyone and everyone the numbers. So far I've not seen anyone, TEMPO or anyone else, posting any numbers. I haven't even seen anyone even post that they have seen numbers from Amtrak. That's my problem with this whole thing. Amtrak just seems to be running around saying that this is a good idea and no one, not even TEMPO, has publicly said that they've seen numbers that suggest that it really is a good idea. Everyone just seems to be assuming that because it's daily, that will make everything perfect. And by the way TEMPO would only have had Texas numbers, not the numbers for the entire runs of both trains.

We are talking about loosing revenue, big time revenue on the Sunset Limited here when sleepers are cut. I'm just asking for anyone to show me that running daily coach service is going to attract enough ridership to cover that loss. I'm not convinced that it will be. And that has nothing to do with "where I'm from." I don't need to be from Texas to understand lost revenue! Not to mention that I'm not interested in what's best for Texas; I'm interested in what's best for Amtrak and all the states currently being served by the trains in question.

As for the calling times, that's not being fixed because Amtrak is creating a daily train. That's being fixed because Amtrak is cutting out the 8 hours of padding that UP insisted they add to the running time several years back. That can be cut out of the schedule without regard to whether we run things status quo, run a daily Sunset, or go with this plan under discussion.

And if the daily stub does fail to make enough money and Amtrak turns around and asks Texas to help pay for it, I'm pretty sure that the bulk of Texan's won't see that as a positive.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Alan, I suspect that what upsets you is that you're afraid you might have to ride the train from NOL to SAS at some point and be forced, against your snobish dignity, to do so in coach.

 

[had8ley]

In October when the sunset starts running daily out out NOL

I wouldn't bet a beat up worn out brake shoe on this one. I'm not from Missouri but I'm going to have to be at East Bridge on Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday & Sunday to see it in order to be a believer. <_<