RSC: Federal Funding For Amtrak & HSR On Chopping Block

[abenm613]

As for which lines would survive the complete cut of subsidies, only the Northeast corridor gets enough revenue to be considered operationally self-sufficient. But, given the fact the Amtrak has already survive the hostile Reagan administration (which kept zeroing it out from budget proposal every year during his second term), the so-call Reform Act (which was calling upon Amtrak to become self-sufficient by the end of 2002), the near-shutdown crisis in the summer of 2002, quite a number of anti-Amtrak's calls from the G.W.Bush administration, I believe it's safe to assume that Republicans (or, to be more precise, anti-rail conservative Republicans) will never get sufficient power in Congress to directly threaten Amtrak's survival. There will always be too many Democrats and moderate Republicans who will stand strong for protecting the existing Amtrak services. And even the conservative anti-rail Republicans, who are being sponsored by oil tycoons, would perhaps think twice before actively pulling a trigger on Amtrak's survival, realizing that the constituents may not forgive them the demise of the train service through their towns, no matter how generously their campaign is sponsored by oil tycoons. And, if anything, even if anti-rail sentiments among Republicans do increase, they may not even get a majority at the next election. So, there are too many odds against anti-rail forces (and in favor of Amtrak).

But, yes, adequate funding IS critical for keeping the nationwide Amtrak network intact (because only the corridor services, Northeast Corridor in particular, would be able to keep running without it); and, conversely, keeping the national network intact IS critical for maintaining the political support for Amtrak (because, after all, why would the legislators from Alabama or Texas support a railroad that only serves the Northeast). The existing Amtrak network is turning 40 this year, which means it has passed the test of time.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

QFT: If Amtrak loses its highly profitable long distance trains and profitable midwestern Corridor trains, it would no longer be able to hide what a money pit the Northeast Corridor really is.

 

[jphjaxfl]

And if Amtrak were to get seriously cut and go away, the anti-Amtrak members would not be able to threaten to cut Amtrak in future years. Passenger Rail needs a dedicated funding source so they don't have to beg from Congress every year. Capital expenditure on new equipment is badly needed. Without new cars, many of the Superliner Is which started running in 1979 will be too worn out to meet required standards. Trains will likely be cut back to 3 times per week or some may be cut alogether due to lack of equipment. Once a train is discontinued, it is nearly impossible to bring it back. Write to your representatives and ask for permanant funding for Amtrak so it can operate like a business should!

 

[dlagrua]

If you look at US Foeign aid, there are some socialist countries and dictatorships that receive what amounts to $1000 per person in US payments. (Foreign aid divided by population). If we can give foreigners $1000 per person in foreign aid then we can subsidize Amtrak to the tune of $32 per passenger.

Amtrak also creates jobs, serves the public interest, generates some payback in the form of income taxes, supports vendors and has environmental benefits. Foreign aid is mainly money thrown down the toilet and given to those that hate our country. When all is said and done, the combined middle East wars will have cost us a trillion or more of our tax money and some politicans are complaining about subsidies to Amtrak. As I've said many times before;we have a strange set of priorites in this country.

 

[had8ley]

I notice that they list the Amtrak subsidy by the passenger. Profit or loss in passenger transportation is measured by the Revenue Passenger Mile!

/end rant :angry2: :angry2:

It sounds like a lot to the subway rider whose probably paying $2; there are people locked in rooms who can't come out until they dream these ideas up!

 

[afigg]

The White House proposed FY2012 budget is due to be released today, so the proposed Amtrak and HSIPR funding numbers for the upcoming FY will be available. But the budget process in the next month will be very messy since Congress is still working on the FY2011 budget, now 4 and 1/2 months into the fiscal year. Either there will be a last minute deal before the continuing resolutions run out or there will be a government shutdown. Given the hostility from many of the newly elected Republicans, my money is on a short lived shutdown.

Meanwhile, Amtrak put out a press release late last week about the January ridership numbers. Quoting: "The numbers are now in and January is the 15th straight month of ridership growth for Amtrak and also the best January on record with 2,126,429 passengers." The ridership growth for each month is in comparison to the same month in the previous year. Release is at http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobkey=id&blobwhere=1249221776733&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobheadername1=Content-disposition&blobheadervalue1=attachment;filename=Amtrak_ATK-11-019a_Amtrak_Sets_15_Month_Ridership_Record.pdf.

The release has the ridership numbers for January and the first 4 months of the FY (October to January) for each service. Overall ridership for the first 4 months is up 5.6%. Amtrak also posted the December 2010 Monthly report which has revenue numbers which show ticket revenue was up +12.0% overall for the first 3 months. Ticket revenue for the LD trains was up +14.0%, so the cost recovery for the LD trains should be improved.

If Amtrak can keep operating expenses from increasing too much - and get the states to sign their contracts for state support which may take a while until the states have dealt with their budgets for the year - Amtrak will be in better shape to handle cuts to the operating support subsidy that it would have been several years ago.

 

[dan72]

I came across and intersting article with the Washington Post. Although HSR is a big winner with Obama's proposal, this article mentions that Amtrak will lose its direct subsidy and need to compete for funding from a new trust fund. Whether it ultimately helps or hurts Amtrak is the question if this proposal were to become reality...

The blurb can be found here: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/02/budget-2012-transportation.html

Dan

 

[Oldsmoboi]

If you look at US Foeign aid, there are some socialist countries and dictatorships that receive what amounts to $1000 per person in US payments. (Foreign aid divided by population). If we can give foreigners $1000 per person in foreign aid then we can subsidize Amtrak to the tune of $32 per passenger.

Amtrak also creates jobs, serves the public interest, generates some payback in the form of income taxes, supports vendors and has environmental benefits. Foreign aid is mainly money thrown down the toilet and given to those that hate our country. When all is said and done, the combined middle East wars will have cost us a trillion or more of our tax money and some politicans are complaining about subsidies to Amtrak. As I've said many times before;we have a strange set of priorites in this country.

Mubarak is said to be worth about $70 billion... almost all of that has come from the U.S.... he's been in power for 30 years.

Imagine what Amtrak could have done with an extra $1.6 billion a year for the past 30 years.

 

[afigg]

Mubarak is said to be worth about $70 billion... almost all of that has come from the U.S.... he's been in power for 30 years.

Imagine what Amtrak could have done with an extra $1.6 billion a year for the past 30 years.

The more reliable guess estimates for Mubarak's and his family wealth are in the $5 billion range. He and his circle of cronies may have become incredibly corrupt, but Mubarak's couldn't keep all the graft to himself.

$1.6 billion a year in additional sustained capital funding for Amtrak over the past 15-20 years, would have gotten the NEC to a state of good repair with much better trip times, greater capacity and higher ridership. Then the HSR funding could focus on building HSR and improved intercity rail in California, the Southeast, Florida, the mid-West, and the Pacific NW. But the $1.6 billion to Egypt is part and parcel of our very large "hidden" subsidy for oil imports.

 

[George Harris]

QFT: If Amtrak loses its highly profitable long distance trains and profitable midwestern Corridor trains, it would no longer be able to hide what a money pit the Northeast Corridor really is.

Absolutely correct, GML!!

The Northeast Corridor has exactly what you do not want in a transportation system: Short hauls, high terminal costs, high operating cost infrastructure, many major structures and facilities that are near life-expired, etc., etc.

 

[volkris]

QFT: If Amtrak loses its highly profitable long distance trains and profitable midwestern Corridor trains, it would no longer be able to hide what a money pit the Northeast Corridor really is.

For some definition of "highly profitable"...

Reminds me of the old joke that 2+2=5 for extremely large values of 2.

In the end there's no way around it: all of Amtrak is a money pit in that there is no money coming out of it. It might be the prettiest, most socially progressive money pit the world has ever seen, but it's still a money pit.

Pointing out that one part of the pit is a bit shallower than another doesn't exactly say much.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak is, for the nation, a profitable enterprise. That its ROI does not show on its balance sheet allows idiots to make comments such as Volkris's.

 

[volkris]

Amtrak is, for the nation, a profitable enterprise. That its ROI does not show on its balance sheet allows idiots to make comments such as Volkris's.

When you're talking about money and the amount of money various routes lose, it's apples and oranges to jump to notions of profit that aren't based on the balance sheets.

It's like trying to fill a budget deficit with the appropriate number of hugs.

 

[Ryan]

Fire stations don't show a profit on their balance sheets.

Neither do schools.

Nor roads.

Nor does the military.

Nor the Police.

Better go ahead and shut the entire thing down, then.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

Fire stations don't show a profit on their balance sheets.

Neither do schools.

Nor roads.

Nor does the military.

Nor the Police.

Better go ahead and shut the entire thing down, then.

this.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak is, for the nation, a profitable enterprise. That its ROI does not show on its balance sheet allows idiots to make comments such as Volkris's.

When you're talking about money and the amount of money various routes lose, it's apples and oranges to jump to notions of profit that aren't based on the balance sheets.

It's like trying to fill a budget deficit with the appropriate number of hugs.

The world does not translate to dollars and cents. Things are done for the benefit of the nation, improve our economy, and make our nation more functional. Without them we would not function. The only reason you can make even a remote judgement about roads not requiring a subsidy is that they have a dedicated funding source- or rather, several of them.

Amtrak provides us with benefits to our nation that are important. Some of them, through diligent search, can be traced to dollars. Those dollars are more than we put into the operation, but do not show on Amtrak's balance sheet. Some benefits are priceless, but do not show up on Amtrak's balance sheet, either.

To ignore these is to be a child. Or the euphemistic word for adult child, Libertarian.

 

[jis]

Amtrak is, for the nation, a profitable enterprise. That its ROI does not show on its balance sheet allows idiots to make comments such as Volkris's.

When you're talking about money and the amount of money various routes lose, it's apples and oranges to jump to notions of profit that aren't based on the balance sheets.

It's like trying to fill a budget deficit with the appropriate number of hugs.

The world does not translate to dollars and cents. Things are done for the benefit of the nation, improve our economy, and make our nation more functional. Without them we would not function. The only reason you can make even a remote judgement about roads not requiring a subsidy is that they have a dedicated funding source- or rather, several of them.

Amtrak provides us with benefits to our nation that are important. Some of them, through diligent search, can be traced to dollars. Those dollars are more than we put into the operation, but do not show on Amtrak's balance sheet. Some benefits are priceless, but do not show up on Amtrak's balance sheet, either.

To ignore these is to be a child. Or the euphemistic word for adult child, Libertarian.

+1. Well stated GML!

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak is, for the nation, a profitable enterprise. That its ROI does not show on its balance sheet allows idiots to make comments such as Volkris's.

When you're talking about money and the amount of money various routes lose, it's apples and oranges to jump to notions of profit that aren't based on the balance sheets.

It's like trying to fill a budget deficit with the appropriate number of hugs.

The world does not translate to dollars and cents. Things are done for the benefit of the nation, improve our economy, and make our nation more functional. Without them we would not function. The only reason you can make even a remote judgement about roads not requiring a subsidy is that they have a dedicated funding source- or rather, several of them.

Amtrak provides us with benefits to our nation that are important. Some of them, through diligent search, can be traced to dollars. Those dollars are more than we put into the operation, but do not show on Amtrak's balance sheet. Some benefits are priceless, but do not show up on Amtrak's balance sheet, either.

To ignore these is to be a child. Or the euphemistic word for adult child, Libertarian.

+1. Well stated GML!

And despite those dedicated funding sources, the roads still do get subsidies anyhow!

 

[dlagrua]

I make my comments as a political independent. I am no more a Socialist than I am a tool of the bankers, financial elite & the corporatists.

So here is an independent opinion.

The politicans have spent us into bankruptsy so the USA must learn to live within its means. Some programs will undoubtedly be cut but what concerns me is the continual attack on Amtrak that is a tiny portion (2-3%) of the total transportation budget. Cutting Amtrak to balance the budget is like trying to put out a house fire with a glass of water

As pointed out no division of government makes money or is self sufficient. Whether it be the military, CIA,NSA, FBI,EPA, FDA, IRS, USPS, TSA, they all cost money to run. The can all be called money pits in one form or another. Talk about a true moeny pit; what about all the billions of US foreign aid that goes to support tyrannical dictators. Do some research on the School of the Americas at FT Benning Georgia and read how we train foreign military dictators to control their people and to be made into US puppets. Then we give them billions to have them do our bidding. We give away our money to "our friends" so we pick on Amtrak as the money waster.

Point is that we waste billions of the taxpayers money on wars and un-necessary programs. The government institutions that are supported by our tax money, that serve the public interest, should be protected and maintained. I want my tax money used for the betterment of the American people and not to fight wars that we will never win, and not to fund dictators that end up living wealthy on our tax money.

It may sound like a load of money but if Amtrak had only a $2 billion annual budget, some really good things could result. We would have the money but we chose to spend it unwisely on other things.

A national passenger rail system is not only vital to help move people from one place to another, it is also vital for the national defense.

 

[Eric S]

Not to suggest that foreign aid is all money well spent, or that it shouldn't face scrutiny and cuts, but it is not as large a part of the federal budget as many suggest. Yes, it is significantly larger than Amtrak's federal funding. The last numbers I saw were something on the order of $17 billion a year for foreign aid.

 

[volkris]

That's right: the benefits and value of Amtrak cannot be translated into dollars and cents, so let's not embark upon the halfhearted attempts to do so. Let's not talk about giant profits of one route versus others, or about the cost per passenger mile being a reason to fund the system. Such arguments are non-starters, and yet they're paraded about often enough to actually do harm to the cause of expansion of rail in the country. After all, if your argument in support is faulty then your whole case if made to look bad.

Similarly, though, it's childish to stomp one's feet saying that rail is a absolutely, unquestionably positive thing for the country. It's not. Rail, other services, has value for some people and no value for others. It's valued differently by different people. And there's nothing wrong with those people who don't see value in rail just as there's nothing wrong with people who don't particularly care for ice cream. It's a personal opinion made by each individual.

So our political systems sort through peoples' valuations to decide what the country as a whole wants to do, and sometimes (probably often) the result will not be in line with your individual opinions and valuations.

The way forward for rail is to improve its value to the individuals living in the country to the tipping point where they believe it's a worthwhile use of tax dollars. We're not at that point now. But one thing that's definitely not going to get us there is false monetary arguments and childish footstomping that tries to force pro-rail opinions on everyone.

Reaching for your neighbor's wallet to pay for your personal causes is just going to **** your neighbor off at you AND the cause.

 

[Ryan]

You can't do this:

The way forward for rail is to improve its value to the individuals living in the country to the tipping point where they believe it's a worthwhile use of tax dollars.

Without doing this:

Reaching for your neighbor's wallet to pay

The rest of your post is just the typical non-reality based tripe of the economic libertarian.

 

[AlanB]

Similarly, though, it's childish to stomp one's feet saying that rail is a absolutely, unquestionably positive thing for the country. It's not. Rail, other services, has value for some people and no value for others. It's valued differently by different people. And there's nothing wrong with those people who don't see value in rail just as there's nothing wrong with people who don't particularly care for ice cream. It's a personal opinion made by each individual.

No, rail has value for everyone. The problem is that many simply don't realize that; they equate value with "would they ride it." But everyone in this country gains value by the rail that is currently in use. They gain value by having fewer people in front of them when they drive down a road/highway. They gain value by having less expense for the roads. They gain value by having the cheaper subsidies for trains instead of the more expensive subsidies for buses.

Reaching for your neighbor's wallet to pay for your personal causes is just going to **** your neighbor off at you AND the cause.

So what you're saying is that it's ok for those in favor of roads to reach for my wallet to pay for their personal cause, but it's not ok for me to ask the same in return?

 

[Oldsmoboi]

I'm a driver. I LOVE to drive.. I find it engaging and relaxing at the same time. Every time Amtrak takes some texting idiot driving their beige imported appliance off the road, it has provided a valuable service to me without me ever buying a ticket.

 

[volkris]

No, rail has value for everyone. The problem is that many simply don't realize that; they equate value with "would they ride it." But everyone in this country gains value by the rail that is currently in use. They gain value by having fewer people in front of them when they drive down a road/highway. They gain value by having less expense for the roads. They gain value by having the cheaper subsidies for trains instead of the more expensive subsidies for buses.

Rail is not a panacea for traffic. A whole lot of people wouldn't be helped in the slightest by that effect on the roadways.