RSC: Federal Funding For Amtrak & HSR On Chopping Block

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SO it looks like there won't be a 5th AU gathering since amtrak won't exist by then if the goverment gets there way :( Lets move to canada at least they have some rail left.
A bunch of crazy Republicans (or Democrats for that matter) is not equal to government. :)

It may very well turn out that the current crop of Republicans in Congress are the best thing that happened for Obama. :) Ya never know!
 
That all sounds great, but if there were money to be made doing that, private industry would be pushing to make that happen.

The fact is, there isn't enough revenue in selling ad space and extra power to subsidize passenger trains.

Agreed, billboard and poster advertising is not what it once was. How about another idea though. Amtrak has a unique branding position being the only intercity passenger rail service. Corporations might want to capitalize on that by promoting them as a "proud supporter" of Amtrak, __ LD train, ___ train station, etc.

I can see an ad for GE touting their locomotives (if those are the ones used) being used exclusively* to pull the EB though the cold and harsh conditions of Montana and ND. With a tag line of "Amtrak trusts us to carry them though the winter, So you can trust us with X." In return for such ads they would give Amtrak money, equipment, services or anything else deemed of value.

I dont think it would do a lot, but I dont think it can hurt.
 
That being said, everybody should write to their boneheaded representatives in advocacy of Amtrak funding. Or go see them in person. And if you are going to go see people in person, keep in mind that you don't have to be from *state* to go to see *state's* representative and give him a piece of your mind.
Indeed, communicate your views to your senators and representatives. Most politicians do pay attention to constituent feedback. Even though my state's delegation is small, left-leaning and generally rail-friendly, I will still be emailing them on this issue. Since personal visits can be difficult, short, thoughtful, considerate and well-reasoned emails and letters are, IMHO, the best means of communication.

I'm not worried that Amtrak will be cut, but I am concerned enough to make my voice heard. I would humbly request that everybody who values Amtrak make their voices heard too.
Although when you write your letter, don't start it "Dear Bonehead."
 
That all sounds great, but if there were money to be made doing that, private industry would be pushing to make that happen.

The fact is, there isn't enough revenue in selling ad space and extra power to subsidize passenger trains.

Agreed, billboard and poster advertising is not what it once was. How about another idea though. Amtrak has a unique branding position being the only intercity passenger rail service. Corporations might want to capitalize on that by promoting them as a "proud supporter" of Amtrak, __ LD train, ___ train station, etc.

I can see an ad for GE touting their locomotives (if those are the ones used) being used exclusively* to pull the EB though the cold and harsh conditions of Montana and ND. With a tag line of "Amtrak trusts us to carry them though the winter, So you can trust us with X." In return for such ads they would give Amtrak money, equipment, services or anything else deemed of value.

I dont think it would do a lot, but I dont think it can hurt.
RRdude's posted that idea before, and they're all excellent ideas that Amtrak could use to bring in some much needed extra cash.

But the thought that it would bring enough cash to eliminate the government subsidy is ridiculous.
 
Instead of complaining that you wouldn't be able to send every American (and every American child for generations) a bill for your personal pet project anymore, it'd be really nice to see the Amtrak supporters working on concrete solutions for funding their wants without demanding that federal government shake down fellow citizens for cash.

Step one? Get past "two wrongs make a right" arguments. They don't bring anyone to your side, don't grow your political clout, and only make you look like whiny children. That taxes are wrongly diverted to highways doesn't mean they should also be wrongly diverted to Amtrak. That taxes are diverted in countries around the world doesn't mean they should also be diverted here. Those two arguments are as widespread as they are unconvincing to anyone not already on board.

Then figure out ways to make Amtrak truly valuable to more customers instead of the badly run, surprisingly unreliable, amazingly customer unfriendly entity that it is today.

But most of all, get over your entitlement mentality; stop stomping your feet like children every time someone discusses whether or not you should get some money thrown your way and then complaining that it's never enough. It only hurts your cause.

Personally, after years of horrible experiences east of the Rockies I'm convinced the number one thing standing in the way of passenger rail in the US is Amtrak itself. The sooner it collapses the better, then we can start working on a system that actually works.
So we now know what to not do Oh Great Teacher! The sermons on what not to do is usually the easy part. So we await to hear your brilliant plan on what to do. Of course if we don't get one then we will know that you are as much a charlatan as the next guy, just blowing smoke. :) Of course you being a mere mortal like the rest, we will understand if you really don't have a plan and are just blowing smoke too. :)

Please provide details on where you will get the seed money to start a new venture such as you appear to deem feasible without any support from the government to create a "working system" replacing the broken Amtrak system. We are waiting to hear your pearls of wisdom. Also please provide details on how you will sell whatever brilliant idea that you have to anyone other than yourself. ;)
 
:rolleyes: Jis: Sarcasm noted, I will point out that the Repub/T-Party charlatans were elected all over in the past election by not having any kind of plan for improving or replacing what they wanted to "cut" or do away with! Lots of these idiots, er, statesmen now that they are in office, ran against HSR/Amtrak/rail programs in their citiy/ districts/states/ nationally without any kind of clue how they could improve or replace exisiting and proposed rail projects! When the chickens come home to roost soon, theyll all turn into apologists for pork, er funding, going to their area since they were only against Washington and the Liberals that were socializing America! Be interesting to see what the millions of folks that commute think when the so called freeways and express ways get even more crowded and go into total gridlock! It says here that Amtrak Joe better get busy and light a fire under the President and his team of ill advisors so they will start fighting and not roll over again, the hour grows late! ;)
 
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"................. but I am concerned enough to make my voice heard. I would humbly request that everybody who values Amtrak make their voices heard too."
This is the real issue. It flat-out SUX that we have to fight/voice-our-support on a regular basis, but it is what it is.

I challenge every member and guest of this forum to take FIVE MINUTES today, and fire off an email to each of their elected officials, regardless of whether they are "for" or "against" Amtrak today, and let them know you want them to SUPPORT add'l funding, and to FIGHT any cuts.
I think I've written fifteen different letters this month to various people (the Dishon. Frank R. Lautenberg, Christie, Cuomo, Menendez, and Pallone come to mind off the bat) and that's before I heard of the agenda of zeroing Amtrak funding. But doing that isn't enough.

Our voice in Washington will never be heard so long as a corrupt, inept organization for funding Ross Capon continues to be our figure head for national rail advocacy. We need organizations promoting passenger rail that works. Organizations consisting of more than just rail fans asking for long distance trains from nowhere to noplace with dome cars. I like the long distance network, and I like having trains that have sleeping cars and whatnot.

And if running more of them makes sense, we should get them. But what I want, god damnit, is a way to get from, say, Trenton to Hazleton without owning a car. Or anywhere to Hornell, even. I don't care if the train passes through scenic vistas, has a dining car, a sleeping car, or a baggage car. I just want to get there.

We have people who are disabled, blind, or otherwise incapable of owning and operating an automobile. And there are thousands of cities in this country they can't get to either at all or without the trip being an ordeal involving half a dozen transfers. That is why we need rail and other mass transit. The fact that sticking a dining car and self-sufficient sleeper cars on the back of the train makes financial sense is why they should be there, and the only reason they should be mentioned.

That all being said, I think that the whole Amtrak theology needs to be reinvented. Amtrak should not be a gift from God or Government, but a product of sound planning and fiscal responsibility.

It is true that just running trains is too expensive for any private enterprise to consider. However, a company can have a loss leader and still turn a profit if there are many profiting facets to the business model.

First focus on the NEC. Yes, that hurts me because I don't live on the NEC and I would not be a part of this. But hang on. EVERY station on the NEC, already owned and operated by Amtrak, should be chock full of rented retail space. There should be bulletin boards full of revenue advertising on the platforms and in the trains. The trains, ie: Acela, should be lengthened to meet a 90% occupancy demand rate so revenue isn't lost.

Then it gets tricky. Amtrak should own its own powerplants to power the Amtrak grid at wholesale cost. It should operate a surplus of energy and sell the rest.

Reduce management to essentials. Demand outside contractors to perform to get paid.

Provide excellent customer service. Ridership may be up, but growth cannot be sustained if new riders only ride once because they hate the experience.

When this is successfully accomplished, then revenue should begin to outpace expenses.
Under George Warrington, Amtrak attempted to become self sufficient via mechanisms you describe, to the point where passengers were almost considered incidental. Now, George Warrington, thank god he's dead, didn't have the intelligence or honesty to manage a toy train set, let alone a real rail road. But the failure for Amtrak's attempt at self sufficiency rests only 95% on his head.

The other reason is that various private enterprises saw Amtrak doing these things as bad for the various private enterprises. So they whined to Congress and local politicians and they stripped most of these private ventures from Amtrak's book of things they could do to become self sufficient.

If we could manage to actually allow Amtrak to become self sufficient via the use of ancillary enterprises, we might have a chance. If we invested in Amtrak to the point where the equipment didn't belong in museums, and didn't need to be heavily overhauled, at half the price of new equipment, every five years just to have a MTBF of over 5000 miles, then Amtrak could be reasonable made operationally self sufficient (excluding the Corridor) under its current system. Then we could make a one shot investment to allow it to start ancillary businesses to cover its (non-NEC) capital expenses. Finally, we could create a separate agency to own and maintain the tracks of the NEC.

And if we did all that, Amtrak as it is could be self sustaining. Maybe even profitable.

But we can't do that. All good intentions are always outnumbered by greed and stupidity. Welcome to America.

Although when you write your letter, don't start it "Dear Bonehead."
Actually, that might not be a bad idea. It would get your letter noticed from out of the thousands they get every day.
 
It is no suprise to anyone here in the forums to know that I am staunchly conservative. That being said, I have always maintained that the Government (State or Federal) shouldn't be charged with playing trains.

As an avid train fan, I do enjoy the fact that Amtrak is still in service and I try to ride whenever I can - even if it's just for 30 minutes a year (which is about what my wife allows me to spend). Sure, I would love to see the Gov eliminate everything else before Amtrak, but I'm sure that all those food stamp recipients don't want their services cut either.
A typical conservative argument. You like to pit one tiny program against another, while ignoring the massive financial black holes that currently eat up our federal budget. For example, military spending for FY10 was estimated at something north of $700 billion.

Why should Amtrak's money have to come from "food stamps"?

That all being said, I think that the whole Amtrak theology needs to be reinvented. Amtrak should not be a gift from God or Government, but a product of sound planning and fiscal responsibility.
Who is calling Amtrak a gift from god? Further, why single out Amtrak? If you're going to go after Amtrak, you should go after all transportation.

It is true that just running trains is too expensive for any private enterprise to consider. However, a company can have a loss leader and still turn a profit if there are many profiting facets to the business model.
First focus on the NEC. Yes, that hurts me because I don't live on the NEC and I would not be a part of this. But hang on. EVERY station on the NEC, already owned and operated by Amtrak, should be chock full of rented retail space. There should be bulletin boards full of revenue advertising on the platforms and in the trains. The trains, ie: Acela, should be lengthened to meet a 90% occupancy demand rate so revenue isn't lost.
If you've visited any NEC station recently (apparently you haven't), you'd see that this is already the case.

Then it gets tricky. Amtrak should own its own powerplants to power the Amtrak grid at wholesale cost. It should operate a surplus of energy and sell the rest.
So, you're advocating one of two things here. Either, the government get into the power plant business (socialism), or Amtrak is its own private company, who happens to own power plants and all sorts of everything else. If Amtrak ran as a private company, then the shareholders would want Amtrak to get rid of the passenger trains and focus on the money-making businesses. What have we accomplished, then? As far as I can tell, we've just created another energy company, and still need someone to pay for the losses on passenger trains.

The unions have got to get under control. Eliminate the pension. Establish a Roth or Traditional 401(k) retirement package. Cross train each employee within thier discipline. Align salaries with similar airline peers.
Please cite examples of unions being "out of control." As for the "pension," as you call it, it's really Railroad Retirement, which is the railroad version of social security. It's not an Amtrak pension. Amtrak management employees already have 401(k) options in addition to Railroad Retirement. It's no difference than any other company offering 4019k) contributions plus Social Security.

Thanks for playing, though.

Reduce management to essentials. Demand outside contractors to perform to get paid.
Define "essential." Also, please provide examples of outside contractors not performing.

Provide excellent customer service. Ridership may be up, but growth cannot be sustained if new riders only ride once because they hate the experience.
When this is successfully accomplished, then revenue should begin to outpace expenses.

Long distance routes should be accounted for with a proper overhead proration and should offer various levels of service that are consistent and established.
I don't know where you're going with this (overhead proration and whatnot). But, you seem to be of the assumption that the average rider hates the Amtrak experience. My impression is different. Amtrak is not perfect, but then again, neither is any private, for-profit corporation.

As far as consistency in service, one of the things that has hurt Amtrak has been the constant threat of elimination, combined with the inability to plan for more than a few months to one year out (which is a direct result of said threat). Amtrak has had five different presidents over the past decade, which makes it difficult to fully carry out any major programs from start to finish.

Quite frankly, I don't think Amtrak will get past the first step. Amtrak philosophy is more like a Theology - it can't ever seem to change. They keep trying and trying and trying the same thing and expecting different results. That is the definition of insanity.
Amtrak has continuously attempted to change. The problem is that, whenever we're almost getting somewhere, some bulls*** Congressional mandate comes down (generally inserted by some conservative politician) that micromanages some aspect of Amtrak's operation and stops the plan. For example, in the mid-2000s, Amtrak was in the process of enhancing service on its long-distance trains, starting with the Empire Builder. Shortly afterward came an edict from Congress that said Amtrak must reduce its *food-service* losses. Not overall losses, mind you. No, they singled out food-service. So, these "good-business sense fiscally responsible conservatives" didn't give a damn whether an increase in food-service losses might actually generate more revenue elsewhere to more than offset the cost of food. (You see, people who actually understood business and economics would realize that some things have to be loss leaders in order to support the business as a whole. Unfortunately, many of those in Congress, both past and present, don't understand business and economics.)

As a result, Amtrak had to put a stop to the program and instead implement a cut in food service. In subsequent years, those restrictions have been lifted and Amtrak has been able to enhance food service again, and overall system ridership and revenues have grown. Amtrak has been able to increase ticket prices on certain trains concurrent with an increase in the quality of food service. The net for Amtrak has been a win, no thanks to the conservatives in Congress which set Amtrak back about five years in getting to this point.

Right now, Amtrak is performing long-distance route reviews as required by the PRIIA law, and is recommending enhancements to the service. Unfortunately, so much is outside of Amtrak's control, that it may be years (if ever) before some of the most major enhancements (improved frequency) are realized.

Amtrak has been woefully undercapitalized for its entire existence. Many of the changes that you have been suggesting above (those that are in any way realistic and haven't already been done, that is), require a massive infusion of initial capital. Who would provide it?

Back during the last round of "Amtrak should be self-sufficient (but we won't worry about subsidies to airlines or highways)" nonsense, which was in the late 1990s (the last ARRA, or the "Amtrak Reform and Reauthorization Act," which also created the Amtrak Reform Council), Congress authorized $5 billion to help Amtrak on its way towards self-sufficiency. Over the life of the authorization (I want to say it was 1998-2002, or roughly equivalent to George Warrington's tenure), Amtrak only received half that amount. If Amtrak was ever going to grow itself into a better financial situation, that other $2.5 billion would have gone a long way.

Instead, Amtrak was so short of cash that they had to park equipment instead of rehabbing it, and wound up mortgaging New York Penn Station just to make payroll. Some of the fault lay with George Warrington, but even he had a plan that would have grown the long-distance network, as well as corridors. It didn't happen, in part, because of the lack of equipment, which could have been addressed had the full authorization been appropriated ($2.5 billion today would be the equivalent of about 1000 passenger cars).

With a greatly expanded system, average overhead would go down (spread across more service), and increased connectivity would lead to much greater revenue. Amtrak understood this then, and Amtrak understands this now. What Amtrak doesn't have is the money needed to make that initial investment. The conservatives in Congress seem hell bent on ensuring Amtrak will never have it.

To say that Amtrak never changes is to ignore reality. What doesn't change is the political view of Amtrak.

As for the money going to Highways, I don't care if they want to reduce those and charge me tolls. But I-95 is in major need of some repair in this area and I travel it every single day. That's where I'd rather see my money spent.
Great. Because more of my tax money goes to subsidize your highways than your tax money goes to subsidize my transit. Amtrak's cost recovery is north of 70%, whereas highways are around 50%. Maybe it's the highways that you should be attacking, and not Amtrak.
 
Here's an idea in the event that Amtrak long-distance trains cease to exist.

Since the 1960s, when they bowed out of the passenger business, freight railroads have seen a huge increase in high-priority intermodal traffic. These "Z" trains, as they are called on UP and BNSF, move at perhaps 2/3 the average speed of Amtrak LD trains, sometimes approaching Amtrak speed. They originate and terminate in large cities, and stop in intermediate large cities to pick up/drop off cars. I bet the freight railroads would much rather deal with a passenger car or two tacked onto the end of these trains than with stopping all of their Z trains to give Amtrak priority.

Freight railroad typical revenue: 3 cents per ton-mile

Weight of Superliner coach: 60 tons

Capacity of baggage coach: 62 people

Ton-miles Portland-Chicago: 2200 miles*60 tons: 132,000

Cost at 3 cents per ton-mile: $3960

Cost per passenger, assuming freight railroad earned $3960/car: $64

Add on car attendants, switching, station fees, maintenance: ~$100-140

Current cost of trip (Amtrak low bucket coach): ~$180 (averaging peak and off-peak season prices)

Current cost of trip (Greyhound): $184

Many would object to treating passengers like freight, but the main advantages would be:

1) Negligible greenhouse gas emissions. Amtrak trains are way over-powered, with 2-3 4000 hp locomotives pulling 10-12 cars. Freights use three 4000 hp engines to pull over 100 cars, and tacking a few cars on the end wouldn't increase energy use by very much.

2) Cheap, self-supporting cross-country travel. No subsidies required.

Of course, this would require a different sort of self-contained car, with batteries/generators to provide heat and power rather than HEP, and I'd love to see a high-capacity sleeper design like the "couchette" cars that I was introduced to in Europe. Passengers would bring their own food, with some basics available for purchase in case folks came unprepared. Smoke/fresh air breaks would correspond to crew change/refueling points. Transit times would be guaranteed (e.g. Portland to Chicago in under 65 hours), as is the case with Z trains anyway, and the cars would typically arrive at their destinations ahead of these deadlines. Satellite internet would allow passengers to continue business on the train, partially offsetting the long travel times. Stations would be located close to intermodal yards, with minimal services, and cars would be switched on and off the train along with cuts of freight cars, keeping the passenger cars at the rear. The train would not spot cars at intermediate stations (e.g. St. Paul). Rather the train would stop in an intermodal yard and cars for St. Paul would be removed while cars loaded in St. Paul in advance of the train's arrival would be added on, and the train would continue with minimal delay. In effect the cars would be self-contained habitable spaces, maintained during the journey by a crew of two attendants and serviced at the terminating stations.

I don't want $22 steak dinners. Sightseer lounges are nice but I don't need them. What I want is a way to get across the country cheaply in relative comfort (warm, safe, flat surface to lay on at night, electricity to run my laptop) with lots of baggage in tow and with minimal energy output/greenhouse gas emissions. I'm sure it will never happen, but I can dream...

Mark
 
I don't want $22 steak dinners. Sightseer lounges are nice but I don't need them. What I want is a way to get across the country cheaply in relative comfort (warm, safe, flat surface to lay on at night, electricity to run my laptop) with lots of baggage in tow and with minimal energy output/greenhouse gas emissions. I'm sure it will never happen, but I can dream...

Mark
You won't get it. The forces that work on freight trains is such that the ride and so forth would be terrible.
 
I don't want $22 steak dinners. Sightseer lounges are nice but I don't need them. What I want is a way to get across the country cheaply in relative comfort (warm, safe, flat surface to lay on at night, electricity to run my laptop) with lots of baggage in tow and with minimal energy output/greenhouse gas emissions. I'm sure it will never happen, but I can dream...

Mark
You won't get it. The forces that work on freight trains is such that the ride and so forth would be terrible.
Ride quality is dictated mainly by the tracks and the trucks on the car I'm riding on. There is the issue of slack action, which would generate some jolts. Some of this could be ameliorated by cushioning in the coupler apparatus; the rest would just be a fact of life. I don't think it would be intolerable, especially on intermodal trains where articulated cars limit the number of couplers and therefore the total amount of slack.
 
Cost per passenger, assuming freight railroad earned $3960/car: $64

Add on car attendants, switching, station fees, maintenance: ~$100-140

Current cost of trip (Amtrak low bucket coach): ~$180 (averaging peak and off-peak season prices)

Current cost of trip (Greyhound): $184
Current cost of trip (Alaska Airlines): $169 and takes ~ 7 hours.
Gets real hard to attract customers with that little difference in price.
 
Cost per passenger, assuming freight railroad earned $3960/car: $64

Add on car attendants, switching, station fees, maintenance: ~$100-140

Current cost of trip (Amtrak low bucket coach): ~$180 (averaging peak and off-peak season prices)

Current cost of trip (Greyhound): $184
Current cost of trip (Alaska Airlines): $169 and takes ~ 7 hours.
Gets real hard to attract customers with that little difference in price.

I like LD trains because they provide better service than planes for close to the same price. Time doesn't really matter to me. But if rail and air are equivilent in terms of both comfort and price, than the plane will win every time because time becomes the only factor left.
 
That all being said, I think that the whole Amtrak theology needs to be reinvented. Amtrak should not be a gift from God or Government, but a product of sound planning and fiscal responsibility.
Wow- great post Ventureforth. Seriously, a welcome attempt at other ideas.

Our voice in Washington will never be heard so long as a corrupt, inept organization for funding Ross Capon continues to be our figure head for national rail advocacy. We need organizations promoting passenger rail that works. Organizations consisting of more than just rail fans asking for long distance trains from nowhere to noplace with dome cars. I like the long distance network, and I like having trains that have sleeping cars and whatnot.
Good luck with that GML.

And here is where Trogdor really gets it wrong:

Great. Because more of my tax money goes to subsidize your highways than your tax money goes to subsidize my transit. Amtrak's cost recovery is north of 70%, whereas highways are around 50%. Maybe it's the highways that you should be attacking, and not Amtrak.
Seriously Trogdor? Do you also think bringing a knife to a gunfight is a good idea?

I would support the de-funding of all rail-related ventures, including Amtrak, high speed rail and federal support for local projects, if Republicans pledge to make significant cuts in defense spending.
DING DING DING DING DING! We have a winner! Let's delve more into Spokker's comment, shall we?

The way I read this thread, its a lot of 'let's get rail advocates together and write our congressmen' to get Passenger rail's share of the government subsidy money.

But its not Highways and airways, per Trogdor. The subsidy $ goes to corporations and the jobs they provide.

Airways:

-Boeing

-Airbus

-Embraer

-Bombardier

-GE Aircraft Engines

-Pratt

-Rolls

-Airlines

-Airfreight cargo companies

-Countless airport and airway infrastructure contractors

Highways:

-All global auto manufactures and their suppliers

-All global truck manufacturers

-Roadway freight & trucking (soon to be Mexican trucking companies too!)

-Countless highway infrastructure contractors

-Highway real-estate (hotels, gas stations, etc)

Let's see what companies and well-paying jobs Passenger Rail brings to the subsidy money fight:

-Locomotive Builders - 200 units every 20 years? Did EMD even bother last time?

-Passenger car builders - what, every 40 years a few hundred?

-Infrastructure - except for NEC, handled by Class 1 coporations and their subcontractors with not nearly as many subsidies

So a bunch of 'passenger rail advocates' writing to their congressmen are going to out-lobby major global corporations that use the Airway and Highway subsidies to provide millions of jobs across all 50 states, Democrat and Republican districts?

If the above fails to make sense, and for an answer to Spokker's comments, google 'Eisenhower Military -Industrial Complex', which ironically, despite Eisenhower's criticism, should instead be called 'Eisenhower - Military, Industrial and Highway Complex'.

Best of luck to you all.
 
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Many would object to treating passengers like freight, but the main advantages would be:1) Negligible greenhouse gas emissions. Amtrak trains are way over-powered, with 2-3 4000 hp locomotives pulling 10-12 cars. Freights use three 4000 hp engines to pull over 100 cars, and tacking a few cars on the end wouldn't increase energy use by very much.

2) Cheap, self-supporting cross-country travel. No subsidies required.
Normally one engine is using it's generators to prove electricity, that darn HEP we like so much. The lead engine, at any given time, is usually the only one actually pulling the train. the third unit is required to climb grades on mountains or is there for protection and backup.

Let's see a hundred car double stack provide HEP, we'd have to go back to the days of generator cars.
 
I don't know how many times it has to be said, but you are not going to see the freight railroads get back into the passenger business without subsidy.

If they could make money off of it, they would do it today.

As for Mr. Monorailfan, please tell me what was "wrong" with what I said.

More money goes toward subsidizing highways than subsidizing transit or Amtrak. That is a fact. If you're going to say this country is broke and the government can't afford stuff, then you're going to have to make large cuts, not small cuts. The subsidy to Amtrak, no matter which way you slice it, is still a small cut.

I'm not suggesting we outlobby the multibillion-dollar global corporations (I mean, "people"). My post was really more directed at the handful of folks on here who seem to have it in their own head that we can't afford Amtrak and we ought to give up on it and cut it.
 
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You can also, heaven forbid the suggestion, raise taxes. Not just on the wealthy but on a whole.

Last year I had an income well over $10,000 but less than $20,000. Between my all of my deductions (mileage, college tuition, and standard) I got every cent I paid to the Fed back, and most of my Ohio money back.

I'm going to take the money back as long as I am allowed to get it-- but, I did use government services last year and I didn't have to pay for them. That's not right.

Americans are spoiled with low taxes (especially on the wealthy) and government services. We want lower taxes and more service. Illinois proposes a modest increase in income tax, STATE income tax no less. It is a good idea. In many states it is either that or massive cuts a la Camden, NJ.

An edit to make my point clear--

I am not suggesting raising taxes for everybody right now is a good idea. My mother, for instance, has very very little income and basically survives as long as I have better than minimum wage jobs. Raise taxes on the wealthiest 2%, or 5%, whatever, for a few years. Then once the unemployment rate is down and economy has recovered raise them for middle class too. The point is to get the Fed to a point of solvency, if we're so worried about borrowing money from China, then we either have to make drastic cuts or raise taxes. Probably a combination thereof.

So here you go Mr. President, a lower-middle class citizen who is willing to pay MORE (or at least pay something) to the government if it means I can keep my police department and my portion of SSI/D and Medicare/aid.

In a few months my household will be on Medicaid. as our annual income last year was less than it needed to be for two people. But I had enough discretionary income to make a nice Hurrah in a vacation, knowing that it would be our last chance in awhile to squeeze one in.
 
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My rebuttal, PJRACER, is:

1) This proposal if carried to fruition* would eliminate that long-distance Amtrak experience you plan on having, not just the HSR plan you don't like.

2) Various people have claimed repeatedly throughout the years that nobody will ride trains -- until they do. :rolleyes: Remember that Californians (and in particular Angelenos) were supposed to be so car-crazy you'd have to pull the steering wheels from their cold dead hands. Look at the ridership on the Amtrak California corridors now.

3) Who said the Chinese would be running it? As I recall, nobody's taken bids yet for who'll build and operate Florida HSR, much less picked the winner. And if it is the Chinese, or the Japanese, or the French, it's because we Americans have thrown away our post-WWII technological advantage in railways and stood idle while the whole industrialized world passed us by, for no greater reason than morons grunting that "billions for highways good, millions for railways bad."

*Not that it will be. There are Representatives from Amtrak-served states (and from Maryland and Virginia for the proposed end of DC Metro funding) who will have something to say about it, as will the Senate. This isn't to say we shouldn't advocate against such proposals to our elected officials -- we definitely should -- just that we shouldn't get too pessimistic. The flipside of Green Maned Lion's "don't rely on a proposed train until it's actually running" is my "don't rely on a zero-budget for Amtrak until it actually becomes law." Amtrak has actually managed to add trains (usually state-sponsored ones), while Congress hasn't passed a zero-budget for Amtrak yet. :p
Excellent Post!
 
The reason that some of our representatives can get away with bashing Amtrak when they discuss Budget cuts is because huge numbers of Americans do not know that Amtrak exists or what the service is like. That includes our Senators and Representatives. Every member of Congess should be required to travel on Amtrak so they can honestly make statements about what is happening and not the vague and unsubstantaied comments like"no one rides passenger trains". They also need to see that the long distance trains provide more than the misconstrued "luxury cruise" service. They provide service to many smaller cities and towns, some of which have no other public transportation. There are many Americans who can't fly for medical reasons, don't want to drive long distances and find a long distance bus trip unacceptable. We need to get the word out to all Americans that trains are an important part of a well balanced transportation system and they do work. When I grew up in the 1950s, it was assumed any trip over 50 miles from home would be by train so the decision was which Railroad and then which train we would take. Many of or neigbors and friends had a similar philosphy. Most people knew the schedules of the major trains serving our communities or communities close by. One of the exciting things was going to the train station to see the trains come in even if we weren't traveling. As trains were discountinued, many people that rode trains regularly switched to other modes as schedules and connections of trains became less suitable. We need to change American minds about trains so they think like average people in other countries that have decent passenger train system, that taking the train is a real option. When you write to your Sanators, Congressment or State Officials, ask them when was the last time they traveled on Amtrak?
 
The topic of the importance of good passenger rail as a national security necessity is significant IMO. Wonder how posters on this thread feel about that issue?

Certainly, the subject was discussed after 9/11, but shouldn't it be a concern of all Congressional members, as an important method of alternative transportation, when considering funding for Amtrak?

"Except for in and out of Manhattan, Amtrak was still running strong. Amtrak was the big alternative mode of transportation used by stranded airline travelers. Trains were jam packed as everyone who was abandoned far from home struggled to get back to their loved ones." (quoted from battalion51)
 
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You can also, heaven forbid the suggestion, raise taxes. Not just on the wealthy but on a whole.
Your post brings up an interesting point. However, I'd say that we don't need to raise tax rates on everybody. Instead, just change the tax structure to eliminate tax loopholes.

Here is a link to an article about Warren Buffet (one of the smartest investors and wealthiest people in the world) saying that the wealthy don't pay their fair share in taxes. Basically, he's saying that most extremely wealthy folks pay a lower percentage of their income to federal taxes than their secretaries do. In fact, he once bet some fellow billionaires $1 million if they could prove that they in fact did pay a higher percentage of their income to federal taxes than their secretaries. None of them took the bet.
 
As for Mr. Monorailfan, please tell me what was "wrong" with what I said.
You said something similar to what I see a lot on these discussion - passenger rail vs. highways and airlines. But that's too simplified. 'Highways' and 'Passenger Rail' are not competiting for a limited slide of subsidies, it's the corporations in those three modes of transit that are. When talking government subsidies, its all about corporate lobbying, ala the defesne department. Grass roots lobbying? Meh.

There is not a whole lot of support for passenger rail outside the NEC, and if you couple that with the much more important (and powerful) corporate lobbying on behalf of highway and air, Amtrak is an easy target. It simply does not have a need for major corporate interest - 200 or so locomotives every other decade, less for passenger cars. Outside the NEC, the infrastructure is taken care of by the lesser-subsidiized Class 1 railroads (if Amtrak OWNED all of its right of way, then of course, this would be different).

So when the competition for transportation subsidies comes up, who is going to fight for Passenger Rail? Lots of companies are going to fight for highway and airline $, and they are going to leverage all the jobs that they create across the USA to maintain those subsidies. Corporations just don't have that much vested in passenger rail. They do in freight rail, but that is not nearly as subsidised.

I'm not saying I like this. I think it stinks. But earlier generations of Americans took the US transportation infrastructure down a different path, and the Industrial Complex shifted to support it, and it is so embedded now at some many levels, including corporate and government, that it will be very difficult to change.

For example, I live in the suburbs. Not because I want to, but I need to live here because this is where the good schools are. Therefore, I need my car to get to work. If we cut Amtrak funding to instead support our roadsystem, that is much more important to me. There is simply no way I can ever take a train to work, to shop, etc. Outside the Northeast, the majority of Americans are this way. We're not anti-Amtrak, it's just that we are living in the transportation system (and the corporate support) that our elders gave us.

So here you go Mr. President, a lower-middle class citizen who is willing to pay MORE (or at least pay something) to the government if it means I can keep my police department and my portion of SSI/D and Medicare/aid.
ALC_Rail_Writer - how much more in taxes are you willing to spend for police, fire, and SSI/D? Why does it cost so much that taxes have to be raised to cover it? What the President is trying to do with healthcare is get its costs under control, hopefully to lessen the tax burden. Its an interesting step that many don't like.

How much are you willing to pay for Fire/Police? Are you willing to pay anything? Why does it cost so much? Why can they Police/Fire retire at much earlier ages, with full pensions and benefits, whereas private sector workers get nowhere near these benefits? Since when do Public Servants (that's what they are) deserve better than the taxpaying public they serve? That's called Benefits Apartheid - the public servants as a better class than those who pay them. I apparently bored GML and others on an earlier post about this, and that's too bad, because it impacts passenger rail.

Raising taxes only works when everyone else raises taxes, and the states around Illinois are now actively recruiting companies to move to their lower-taxed and lower cost of living states. My state sure is. So I think mid-term, this effort will backfire on Illinois. See California. And then the crushing state expenses will put Il into a corner, and hence why the Feds are studying a way to let States declare bankruptcy. And if this happens, where are the state's matching HSR and Amtrak funds going to come fron?

http://www.nytimes.c...jiAQjlJbdl956sA
 
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Let me reiterate a point that has already been made: Republicans may be anti-rail in general but when cuts threaten services that their (Republican) constituents find important, they howl as loud as anyone else. Witness, for example, the fight by North Dakota congressmen to keep rail service to Devils Lake and Grand Forks:

http://www.devilslakejournal.com/features/x1682038653/Joe-Belford-on-top-of-the-battle-to-save-Amtrak-from-rising-water

Now imagine what they will say when rail service to the entire state is on the chopping block.

(The Empire Builder may be somewhat unique in this respect, in that folks along the high line perceive it as a needed service especially in the winter. I don't know if similar sentiment exists in more populated and temperate regions.)
 
See California. And then the crushing state expenses will put Il into a corner, and hence why the Feds are studying a way to let States declare bankruptcy. And if this happens, where are the state's matching HSR and Amtrak funds going to come fron?

http://www.nytimes.c...jiAQjlJbdl956sA
Actually if states are allowed to declare bankruptcy and wipe off their debt, then eventually they will have a greater ability to fund everything, since the burden of interest payment on debt will be gone. Of course the state bond holders and state pensioners of today will be screwed. Works just like someone who has no ability to get any loan as a result of existing debt can spend 7 years in purgatory after declaring bankruptcy and then start off again with a clean slate. Even entire countries that have gone bankrupt have recovered nicely over the years if they have been able to change their behavior. So things are not really as black and white as they are made out to be.

The bottom line for the US is as long as it insists on maintaining its spending habits on maintaining a huge armed forces and insist on indirectly subsidizing unsustainable lifestyles, there is no saving it from its own demise, even if all of the expenditures on infrastructure are zeroed out. It is just a question of when people will stop grandstanding and start dealing with the real issues. Amtrak is really not one of the real issues. It is a feel good thing to talk about by those who are scared to deal with the real issues, which usually has more to do with their own habits and proclivities and changing them.
 
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