St. Paul Union Depot

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.

VentureForth

Engineer
Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
6,441
Location
West Melbourne, FL
Well from everything that I can see online, it looks like the restoration of the St. Paul Union Depot is moving right along, and perhaps even ahead of schedule. I haven't seen a whole lot of discussion about this here - quite to my suprise. Maybe I haven't looked for it until just now. So, I have a couple of questions about the St. Paul Union Depot and how trains are going to get in and out of the station and what the routing of the Empire Building will be after completion.

This looks to be a beautiful station. Have any St. Paul residents that are members here taken the public tour of the renovations? I'd love to see some more photos!

It looks like the the original platforms were perpendicular to mainline tracks. The trainshed doesn't look near long enough to hold a full EB consist. Looking at the aerial views from google maps, I can't see where there is room to add platforms to the mainline. What's the track proposed to look like? With all the gnashing of teeth grinding over the walk at Sacramento, it looks like this is going to be the case in St. Paul.

Finally, Will the routing continue to be the same through the old Midway station or will there be a more efficient way now to get out of town and onto full speed trackage?
 
It looks like the the original platforms were perpendicular to mainline tracks. The trainshed doesn't look near long enough to hold a full EB consist. Looking at the aerial views from google maps, I can't see where there is room to add platforms to the mainline. What's the track proposed to look like? With all the gnashing of teeth grinding over the walk at Sacramento, it looks like this is going to be the case in St. Paul.
I think that you're looking at it wrong. There's no train shed. The concourse (what I think you're misidentifying as the train shed) goes over the platforms perpendicularly. The platforms themselves are parallel to the CP tracks (and the river, if that helps). The platform closest to the CP track is definitely long enough for the Empire Builder. There are some things I don't understand about the design, though. While I welcome the light rail stop out front, and the easy connection to buses, I'm concerned about how automobiles going to and from the station. I don't see how we're going to avoid congestion.

The gnashing of teeth in this case is the design of the light rail line. I've heard many complaints that the light rail stop will be on 4th street, and passengers will have to walk up and through the depot's headhouse (now a restaurant and condos) to get to the concourse. The original design (rejected as two expensive) had the light rail stop on one of the rail platforms, nearer to where buses will stop. I'm agnostic on the issue. Sure, it's a longer walk, but I like entering old buildings like SPUD the way the architect intended, not scuttling in a back way.

Finally, Will the routing continue to be the same through the old Midway station or will there be a more efficient way now to get out of town and onto full speed trackage?
Yes, the Empire Builder will still use CP's Merriam subdivision. No improvement there.
 
I also found this pdf on the proposals. I guess all the trains have always run perpendicular to the concourse. I didn't see any plans for staircases/escalators/elevators from the concorse to the platforms, though. I'll have to check out some of your photos, TraneMan.
 
There is also a facebook page for the St. Paul renovation project with lots of photographs. Go to FB and search for 'The Union Depot'.

I would provide a link but Facebook is firewalled by my employer. (shhhhhhh, don't tell them about Amtrak Unlimited.)
 
One of these days I'll take the bus or walk to downtown Saint Paul and see what's happening there.

Hoping that we won't get to be calling the refurbished station "SPUD"
 
Neat stuff. A couple of things that pop out:

- Amtrak service delayed until next year, date unknown. That's always risky.

- Greyhound pulled out. Wonder why.

- Same company that operates Chicago Union Station will manage this one which concerned me a bit. BUT a separate private enterprise (somehow related to bike storage) will offer showers for travelers! Finally someone it!

- First class lounge is as far away from the boarding area as possible in the concourse.

- No talk about whether the sky walk to the post office will be public or even used, or perhaps removed.

- DON'T wear a dress on the tours!
 
Neat stuff. A couple of things that pop out:

- Amtrak service delayed until next year, date unknown. That's always risky.

- Greyhound pulled out. Wonder why.

- Same company that operates Chicago Union Station will manage this one which concerned me a bit. BUT a separate private enterprise (somehow related to bike storage) will offer showers for travelers! Finally someone it!

- First class lounge is as far away from the boarding area as possible in the concourse.

- No talk about whether the sky walk to the post office will be public or even used, or perhaps removed.

- DON'T wear a dress on the tours!
- Showers for travelers - hey the last time I saw that was in Chicago in the early 70's or so -- useful if one dared.

- Amtrak service "delayed" - most of us locals never knew it was even promised - surely not promised for any specific year. The SPUD has been refurbished before - nothing much came of it. Local media and even advocates of the project mostly ignored this project for the last 5 years or so, most recent coverage was some pix of the work, but no word on what the place might serve as or for. The light rail connection isn't scheduled for completion until early 2014.

There might could -possibly- be a commuter rail project ( the "Red Rock" line) in a decade or so, and maybe service to or thru Rochester MN in another decade. Maybe sooner, depending - but not even probable short-term. If the corridor MSP-DUluth ever happens that will logically stop where the Northstar stops now, by Target Field - and until the Northstar serves Saint Cloud, the Northstar is unlikely to meet its ridership goals.

Hoping some of the lowertown favorite eating places like Tanpopo might be able to lease space- but likely too pricey for most local eateries to even consider.

- Surprised me that Greyhound was ever in - now, there is, or was, a little-used shelter on University Avenue labeled "Greyhound" but there's not been any Greyhound service in downtown Saint Paul for years - maybe decades unless they used to stop at that little shelter - which is gone or relocated account of the light rail construction anyhow - or maybe there's some such thing somewhere - but riding the city bus or walking the stretch from Midway to downtown Saint Paul a few times a week - never seen it.. Want Greyhound, go the Minneapolis downtown and find it there if you can.

Megabus and Jefferson lines are the prime intercity bus services here, Jefferson - by their website - serves the U of M, Mall of America, the old downtown Minneapolis bus depot, the Airport, and the Amtrak Depot - the current one. Megabus stops in Downtown Minneapolis near the Metrodome, and on some trips at the U of M. The dog I haven't checked on in the last 15 years - Seems they have some schedules here -- not likely to try them with Amtrak, Megabus and Jefferson available - maybe I'm biased.

Megabus won't sign on to any station project, they proudly refuse to pay for a place to pick up pax. Jefferson lines might pay for a presence - but anyone in Saint Paul who wants their service can take the city bus or the light rail to the airport to catch their buses.

- There will be a First Class lounge? There's a small sort of one about as big as my small living room at the current Midway station - never used it though I've travelled sleeper class from MSP a few times recently. Hope the Wifi is better than at WAS.

- Won't wear a dress even if I take the tour - which I might -seems there's a lot I don't know about this project. Will probably wear jeans and/or overhauls.

Mostly what I care about this project is that sometime in the next 5 years I might have to take the city bus (or the new light rail) for a half hour to get there, rather than walking for 15 minutes to get to the present station.

Sorry to sound such a skeptic - SPUD is a beautiful old depot - but out-of-the-way for most travelers - about as much out-of-the-way as the current Midway depot. Maybe the new light rail line that is scheduled to start running in 2014 might make the connections better - hope so.

- Sky walk to the Post Office -- huh -- there's a big "For Sale" sign on the Post Office - if that means the grand 1930's building on Kellogg. No clue who or what the new tenant might be or what the building will be used for.

Hope the project succeeds.
 
- Same company that operates Chicago Union Station will manage this one which concerned me a bit. BUT a separate private enterprise (somehow related to bike storage) will offer showers for travelers! Finally someone it!
What exactly does a company that manages a station do?

I guess Amtrak still runs the important stuff such as ticket offices, bagage handling etc.

Does the managment company look after cleaning, maintenance etc?

Does it manage the leases of the retail outlets maybe?
 
Yes. A management company deals with the tennants - which according to the video there will be more than 30 private businesses located inside the station. In addition, they will tend to the booking of special events to be held in the Head House and even the Concourse. They would probably steer clear of any Amtrak or rail operations like baggage, tickets, etc.

NW Cannonball - take a look at a PDF I have linked a few posts up for talk about Greyhound. I can't find the original dates promised. I guess when they're done, they'll start service.
 
There are some things I don't understand about the design, though. While I welcome the light rail stop out front, and the easy connection to buses, I'm concerned about how automobiles going to and from the station. I don't see how we're going to avoid congestion.
1. There's a "secret underpass" right in front of the headhouse which is for drop-off/pick-up/taxi use.

2. There's additional drop-off/pick-up on Kellogg Blvd.

3. There's a giant parking garage being rebuilt UNDERNEATH the train deck. I'm not quite sure where the access points to this are, but I think they're on the north-south streets.

I don't think there will be a problem with automobile traffic. Remember, this was one of the most modern of the "old" stations.
 
Neat stuff. A couple of things that pop out:

- Amtrak service delayed until next year, date unknown. That's always risky.
It was always supposed to be "next year", since the Depot finishing date is sometime in December and Amtrak wouldn't move right before Christmas! "Date unknown" is annoying, however.

- Greyhound pulled out. Wonder why.
Greyhound is abandoning service to St. Paul, having decided to run all its buses direct to its terminal in Minneapolis.

- Same company that operates Chicago Union Station will manage this one which concerned me a bit. BUT a separate private enterprise (somehow related to bike storage) will offer showers for travelers! Finally someone it!

- First class lounge is as far away from the boarding area as possible in the concourse.
Several people have complained about this.

- No talk about whether the sky walk to the post office will be public or even used, or perhaps removed.
*OLD* information says the sky walk will remain intact -- and will be public if and only if the post office or the successors to the post office decide to have public things in the building.

- DON'T wear a dress on the tours!
 
- Surprised me that Greyhound was ever in - now, there is, or was, a little-used shelter on University Avenue labeled "Greyhound" but there's not been any Greyhound service in downtown Saint Paul for years - maybe decades unless they used to stop at that little shelter - which is gone or relocated account of the light rail construction anyhow - or maybe there's some such thing somewhere - but riding the city bus or walking the stretch from Midway to downtown Saint Paul a few times a week - never seen it.. Want Greyhound, go the Minneapolis downtown and find it there if you can.

Megabus and Jefferson lines are the prime intercity bus services here, Jefferson - by their website - serves the U of M, Mall of America, the old downtown Minneapolis bus depot, the Airport, and the Amtrak Depot - the current one. Megabus stops in Downtown Minneapolis near the Metrodome, and on some trips at the U of M. The dog I haven't checked on in the last 15 years - Seems they have some schedules here -- not likely to try them with Amtrak, Megabus and Jefferson available - maybe I'm biased.

Megabus won't sign on to any station project, they proudly refuse to pay for a place to pick up pax. Jefferson lines might pay for a presence - but anyone in Saint Paul who wants their service can take the city bus or the light rail to the airport to catch their buses.

\
See this: http://extranet.greyhound.com/Revsup/schedules2/pageset.html. Looks like Greyhound is gonna skip St. Paul. They ain't that bad and I really hate Magabus. Personally my preference for MSP is: Amtrak, Jefferson Lines MCI, Greyhound MCI, Greyhound other, Jefferson Lines other, Megabus. Though the EB looks to be suffering tons of delays, it's getting much better but when winter comes then OTP gonna drop like crazy again.
 
- Amtrak service "delayed" - most of us locals never knew it was even promised - surely not promised for any specific year.
It was promised for 2013 as of the point when the funding came through. So not delayed yet. I have no idea what the holdup is on getting an agreement with Amtrak, but I have heard that everyone working at Midway is eager to relocate....

The SPUD has been refurbished before - nothing much came of it.
Only a small *part* of it had been refurbished. It look Ramsey County a very long time to actually get ownership of the whole thing; it had been broken up into multiple parcels. Ramsey County is now refurbishing bits which haven't been refurbished since the blackout paint went up in World War II.

There might could -possibly- be a commuter rail project ( the "Red Rock" line) in a decade or so,
Hastings, MN hopes. If it's built, it's also supposed to run through as an express from SPUD to Minneapolis (to Target Field).

Jefferson lines might pay for a presence - but anyone in Saint Paul who wants their service can take the city bus or the light rail to the airport to catch their buses.
Jefferson Lines is moving in; they are confirmed.

Mostly what I care about this project is that sometime in the next 5 years I might have to take the city bus (or the new light rail) for a half hour to get there, rather than walking for 15 minutes to get to the present station.

Sorry to sound such a skeptic - SPUD is a beautiful old depot - but out-of-the-way for most travelers - about as much out-of-the-way as the current Midway depot.
Not even close. Midway is in a *terrible* location surrounded by industry; you're unusual in being 15 minutes walk from it. (Though it's better since the sidewalks on University Avenue got rebuilt.) SPUD is within walking distance of pretty much all of downtown St. Paul, which is certainly more convenient for visitors, and for people living in Lowertown. Of course neither location is in walking distance of downtown Minneapolis.

Maybe the new light rail line that is scheduled to start running in 2014 might make the connections better - hope so.
It should. Same time from Minneapolis to SPUD as from Minneapolis to the airport, quicker from the University...

- Sky walk to the Post Office -- huh -- there's a big "For Sale" sign on the Post Office - if that means the grand 1930's building on Kellogg. No clue who or what the new tenant might be or what the building will be used for.
I think there's no plan for that building yet. The skywalk is going to be ready for anyone who chooses to reuse the post office, but for now it will just sit.

Hope the project succeeds.
Well, it has to be an improvement on Midway Station! I also hope it gets more train services, more retail, etc. I'm sure Ramsey County will do its best to shake up tenants for the headhouse (that's what they subcontracted to Jones Lang LaSalle), and I have no idea how well they'll do at that.

The station is now the obvious go-to point if there are any additional commuter rail or intercity rail services. Unfortunately all of them are caught in "study hell".
 
Finally, Will the routing continue to be the same through the old Midway station or will there be a more efficient way now to get out of town and onto full speed trackage?
While the routing will be the same, *times from St. Paul to Chicago will be significantly shorter*, because nearly all of that low-speed trackage will now be west of the station. Of course times from St. Paul to St. Cloud will be longer by the same amount, so there you go.
 
Finally, Will the routing continue to be the same through the old Midway station or will there be a more efficient way now to get out of town and onto full speed trackage?
While the routing will be the same, *times from St. Paul to Chicago will be significantly shorter*, because nearly all of that low-speed trackage will now be west of the station. Of course times from St. Paul to St. Cloud will be longer by the same amount, so there you go.
My understanding is that Amtrak would like to use a reversing move at St. Paul so they can enter and exit from the east and use CP directly to and from BNSF to get off of the Minnesota Commercial trackage. This would be similar to the move by the Zephyr at Denver. The FRA is balking at this plan, so they might be stuck with today's route. There is also some thought about adding a stop at one of the Northstar stations near Minneapolis to provide better access for the larger population on the west side of the Twin Cities.
 
Finally, Will the routing continue to be the same through the old Midway station or will there be a more efficient way now to get out of town and onto full speed trackage?
While the routing will be the same, *times from St. Paul to Chicago will be significantly shorter*, because nearly all of that low-speed trackage will now be west of the station. Of course times from St. Paul to St. Cloud will be longer by the same amount, so there you go.
My understanding is that Amtrak would like to use a reversing move at St. Paul so they can enter and exit from the east and use CP directly to and from BNSF to get off of the Minnesota Commercial trackage. This would be similar to the move by the Zephyr at Denver. The FRA is balking at this plan, so they might be stuck with today's route. There is also some thought about adding a stop at one of the Northstar stations near Minneapolis to provide better access for the larger population on the west side of the Twin Cities.
".......There is also some thought about adding a stop at one of the Northstar stations near Minneapolis to provide better access for the larger population on the west side of the Twin Cities. ...." About the only thing in this whole thread that makes sense, so far as I have read.
 
Finally, Will the routing continue to be the same through the old Midway station or will there be a more efficient way now to get out of town and onto full speed trackage?
While the routing will be the same, *times from St. Paul to Chicago will be significantly shorter*, because nearly all of that low-speed trackage will now be west of the station. Of course times from St. Paul to St. Cloud will be longer by the same amount, so there you go.
My understanding is that Amtrak would like to use a reversing move at St. Paul so they can enter and exit from the east and use CP directly to and from BNSF to get off of the Minnesota Commercial trackage. This would be similar to the move by the Zephyr at Denver. The FRA is balking at this plan, so they might be stuck with today's route. There is also some thought about adding a stop at one of the Northstar stations near Minneapolis to provide better access for the larger population on the west side of the Twin Cities.
".......There is also some thought about adding a stop at one of the Northstar stations near Minneapolis to provide better access for the larger population on the west side of the Twin Cities. ...." About the only thing in this whole thread that makes sense, so far as I have read.
Agreed. Although I live in South Minneapolis, when Amtrak switches from Midway to SPUD, St. Cloud or Red Wing (depending on the direction I'm traveling) will actually be more convenient for me when you consider the parking issues.
 
Thank you for the video from the SP Forum. I watched it and something I think is great is that they showed the First Class Lounge under construction. This is a good move by Amtrak. Too bad it doesn't happen in more places.
 
Hey thanks for all the info - it's a lot more than what I get from the local media.

Besides the completion of the Northstar to Saint Cloud, and the possible (but problematic) run to Duluth ( no intermediate stops worth much), the Red Rock to Hastings and maybe even Red Wing or even Winona - or a swift run to Rochester and the Mayo -

What other rail or intermodal potential is there for Saint Paul Union Station?

Possibly Mississippi cruise boats.

Quick city bus run to MSP airport already available.

Possibly ( I dream of this but it's real unlikely ) a run down the Minnesota River to Mankato and then all the way to KC starting on the old CNW?

Possibly west into South Dakota on the TCW?

Possibly some way to Eastern Wisconsin north of Milwaukee?

Any other possible corridor routes? Even under unlikely scenarios?
 
Possible Corridors ? I'd say all along the EB route before branching off to Winnipeg. Tough for there to be any Eastern WI route that doesn't go to MKE. The only two I can think of would go to Sault Sainte Marie, MI, or to Green Bay, WI. Id put the route to Winnipeg into service before offering service to either of those places, though.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Winnipeg - half a century ago the GN ran one or two passenger trains MSP to Winnipeg - unlikely now.

What about a branch from La Crosse or Winona to Dubuque and points south or maybe to Des Moines -

Or possibly through Rocford IL?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top