Northwest mudslide season begins

[the_traveler]

You mean that you don't want to ride an Ambus to Canuckistan, Jim? :blush:

:giggle: :giggle: :giggle:

 

[Phil S]

I wonder what density and length of horizontal drains would be required?
Given that the average modern oil well involves two miles of vertical drilling through solid rock and a further two miles of horizontal drilling at 10,000 foot depth, I have to assume this project is pretty easy from a technical perspective. I wonder if a "mineral rights" provision (subsurface drilling with no significant impact on the surface) could be used to move the project forward without having to deal too much with landowners?

Mark

the drilling is just the small matter of cost. Teh theory behind teh oil well is that the oil out of the well can be sold for enough to pay for the well. Not happening for side hill drilling to drain water.

"Mineral rights' are not something that automatically allows someone to do somthing under your property. In most places, unless they have been sold property ownership extends to the center of the earth in thoery, at least.

I agree with George's assessment, although I think the horizontal drilling costs would be low and covered easily by BNSF and WDOT. But,given that armoring the cliff won't work, then the land owners have to be involved -- willingly or not. I'd sure like to see some evidence that WDOT has some realistic plan. BNSF wrote a technical assessment of the problem. Anybody seen it or have any way to get a copy?

 

[George Harris]

See https://fortress.wa.gov/ecy/publications/publications/0106019.pdf

This is a Washington State DOT report titled “Coastal Landsliding on Puget Sound: A review of landslides occurring between 1996 and 1999”.

While this may not seem all that relevant, it has a good deal of information on the nature of the soils in the problem areas. Page 21 of the PDF, which is page 7 of the report, has a nice typical cross section of the soils in the area which illustrates nicely the pervious layers over impervious layers that cause the problems. My quick non-geological expertise says that there is no single solution. Yes, saturation of the pervious layers referred to as Vashon Till and Esperance Sand sitting over the impervious Lawton Clay and “pre-Lawton sediments and bedrock” is a major factor in the slides, but it is not the total problem. Note that the same typical section drawing also shows a “potential deep failure surface” Notice how the dotted line showing the slope failure is in an arc. This sort of rotational failure is why many times you will see a rise in the ground at the bottom of a slope failure.

Horizontal drains at the interface between the sand and the clay will do a lot to reduce failures of the sand layers, but nothing for failures in the clay layer. For that slope anchoring or retaining walls with the foundations of both of these extending beyond the potential failure plane is necessary.

There are pictures of various slope failures throughout this document, including some that affect the railroad. See particularly Figures 19 and 21 for landslides over the railroad.

The following are some recent articles on the landslides. As has been said there is very little real information on what can be or should be or is intended to be done about the problem. Also, it is interesting to see that the same information and quotations can be found in most of these.

.

http://www.rtands.com/index.php/safety-training/rail-partners-explore-washington-state-mudslide-causes-solutions.html

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/article/BNSF-Amtrak-and-Sound-Transit-work-with-Washington-DOT-to-address-recurring-mudslides--35102

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/News/2013/01/24_rail_mudslide_solutions.htm

 

[CHamilton]

Hold onto your hat, Jim!

Winter storm to blow into Washington Friday
Forecasters say a strong winter storm will blow into Washington Friday with high winds and rain in Western Washington, heavy mountain snow, and mixed snow and rain in Eastern Washington.

The National Weather Service says the front will arrive on winds of 20 to 35 mph with 40 to 50 mph gusts. Peak gusts are expected Friday morning on the coast and north interior.

Forecasters expect 1 to 2 inches of rain in the Western Washington lowlands and 1 to 2 feet of snow in the Olympics and Cascades.

 

[fairviewroad]

Hold onto your hat, Jim!

Winter storm to blow into Washington Friday
Forecasters say a strong winter storm will blow into Washington Friday with high winds and rain in Western Washington, heavy mountain snow, and mixed snow and rain in Eastern Washington.

The National Weather Service says the front will arrive on winds of 20 to 35 mph with 40 to 50 mph gusts. Peak gusts are expected Friday morning on the coast and north interior.

Forecasters expect 1 to 2 inches of rain in the Western Washington lowlands and 1 to 2 feet of snow in the Olympics and Cascades.

Should we make some wagers on when the next mudslide closure will happen? I'm going with 3:30 p.m. on Friday. :mellow:

 

[montana mike]

Are these mudslides the cause for the almost 4 hour delay on the eastbound EB (#8) chugging thru Montana this AM?

:-(

 

[anir dendroica]

Engine failure, not a mudslide issue.

 

[Phil S]

See https://fortress.wa.gov/ecy/publications/publications/0106019.pdf
This is a Washington State DOT report titled “Coastal Landsliding on Puget Sound: A review of landslides occurring between 1996 and 1999”.

While this may not seem all that relevant, it has a good deal of information on the nature of the soils in the problem areas. Page 21 of the PDF, which is page 7 of the report, has a nice typical cross section of the soils in the area which illustrates nicely the pervious layers over impervious layers that cause the problems. My quick non-geological expertise says that there is no single solution. Yes, saturation of the pervious layers referred to as Vashon Till and Esperance Sand sitting over the impervious Lawton Clay and “pre-Lawton sediments and bedrock” is a major factor in the slides, but it is not the total problem. Note that the same typical section drawing also shows a “potential deep failure surface” Notice how the dotted line showing the slope failure is in an arc. This sort of rotational failure is why many times you will see a rise in the ground at the bottom of a slope failure.

Horizontal drains at the interface between the sand and the clay will do a lot to reduce failures of the sand layers, but nothing for failures in the clay layer. For that slope anchoring or retaining walls with the foundations of both of these extending beyond the potential failure plane is necessary.

There are pictures of various slope failures throughout this document, including some that affect the railroad. See particularly Figures 19 and 21 for landslides over the railroad.

The following are some recent articles on the landslides. As has been said there is very little real information on what can be or should be or is intended to be done about the problem. Also, it is interesting to see that the same information and quotations can be found in most of these.

.

http://www.rtands.com/index.php/safety-training/rail-partners-explore-washington-state-mudslide-causes-solutions.html

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/article/BNSF-Amtrak-and-Sound-Transit-work-with-Washington-DOT-to-address-recurring-mudslides--35102

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/News/2013/01/24_rail_mudslide_solutions.htm

George -- Thanks very much for posting this. Haven;t had time yet to read it all but I definitelywill. - Phil

 

[Phil S]

I read through the links in George’s post, especially https://fortress.wa....ons/0106019.pdf.

It’s certainly eye-opening in terms of the depths of human stupidity. As to the role of improper drainage, it says: “On-site septic systems and drainfields, which predominate along a bulk of Puget Sound's residential shoreline, can lead to increased infiltration, as can poorly planned or maintained irrigation systems.” But conspicuously absent is any quantitative assessment of the extent of this problem, any recommendation that such an assessment be done, or any recommendation that such problems be dealt with.

As for the news releases, yes indeed. This is exactly the sort of zero-content stuff that Melanie pointed me toward. As I said, I think WDOT is terrified of alerting cliff-top land-owners to the idea that they are a major part of the problem and might just have to be part of the solution.

 

[Blackwolf]

As for the news releases, yes indeed. This is exactly the sort of zero-content stuff that Melanie pointed me toward. As I said, I think WDOT is terrified of alerting cliff-top land-owners to the idea that they are a major part of the problem and might just have to be part of the solution.

Almost makes one wonder if someone could "help the situation along" by making up some of those campaign-style lawn signs and sticking them conspicuously through those neighborhoods involved. Nothing like driving home and seeing a sign saying MUDSLIDE WOES? YOU AND YOUR HOUSE IS PART OF THE PROBLEM! h34r:

 

[fairviewroad]

Should we make some wagers on when the next mudslide closure will happen? I'm going with 3:30 p.m. on Friday. :mellow:

Obviously I was wrong. (thank goodness)

 

[CHamilton]

Train engineers hope to reduce landslides after record-setting year

After a historic winter season for landslides in the north sound, Burlington Northern Santa Fe is prepared to move forward with a solution.
Since Thanksgiving, BNSF reports 200 landslides between Everett and Seattle. 170 Sound Transit train routes have been cancelled.
BNSF engineers will present Sound Transit with fixes for a series of trouble spots that have repeatedly blocked the tracks.

 

[fairviewroad]

"Train engineers hope to reduce landslides"

That's kind of a funny headline considering that the actual train engineers probably DO

hope to reduce landslides, but the engineers in this case are actually a different sort of

engineers.

 

[Phil S]

Train engineers hope to reduce landslides after record-setting year

After a historic winter season for landslides in the north sound, Burlington Northern Santa Fe is prepared to move forward with a solution.
Since Thanksgiving, BNSF reports 200 landslides between Everett and Seattle. 170 Sound Transit train routes have been cancelled.
BNSF engineers will present Sound Transit with fixes for a series of trouble spots that have repeatedly blocked the tracks.

Cool. The presentation was this afternoon in open session so a video should be posted - maybe tomorrow? I'll try to scroll through the video, see if BNSF actually provided any detail on what they plan. If anybody beats me to it -- that'd be great!

 

[Phil S]

Train engineers hope to reduce landslides after record-setting year
Video for yesterday's Sound Transit BoD meeting still hasn't been posted but the KING5 article has been updated:

Sixteen million dollars in proposed improvements are targeted to prevent mudslides along northern routes for Sound Transit trains between Everett and Seattle.

Out of the 200 reported landslides since Thanksgiving 2012, Burlington Northern Santa Fe engineers have pinpointed six of the most risky and problematic locations, which are along an eight-mile area between Mukilteo and Everett.

“We’re proposing to move debris from the tops of slopes, put in additional catchment walls in the area as well as drainage systems,” said Guy Melonas, BNSF spokesman.

The rest of the article is now an interview of a random passenger.

 

[Phil S]

Sound Transit posted the video of their 2/28 BoD meeting that included a presentation by BNSF, but I couldn't get the video to play - just stops after a couple of minutes.

Here's some great footage of clean-up from KIRO http://www.kirotv.com/videos/news/raw-cleanup-under-way-at-slide-scene/vmWyN/

With people building houses and planting lawns right up to the cliff edge...well, it ain't rocket science.

Here's a quote from RRForums:

The BN/BNSF should have never severed the former Northern Pacific Renton-Snohomish secondary mainline, which could have been upgraded to serve as a backup mainline in the event the former GN mainline along Puget Sound is closed due to slides.

__________________
Bill Anderson, Mile Post 18 regular

Google pointed me to an article on this from last November: http://crosscut.com/2012/11/13/transportation/111465/eastside-rail-humpty-dumpty-northwest-transportati/ Is that what Bill Anderson was referring to?

 

[CHamilton]

Mudslide trouble spots identified

Crews to work on six hillside areas between Everett and south of Mukilteo

EVERETT -- Railroad officials say they've narrowed down the worst trouble spots for mudslides that have forced cancellation of an increasing number of passenger train trips between Everett and Seattle the past few years.

Six slide-prone hillsides, spanning from just south of downtown Everett to the southern part of Mukilteo, are targeted for extensive repairs and reinforcement, say officials with BNSF Railway and the state.

The goal is to begin at least some of the work this summer, said David Smelser, who oversees the Amtrak Cascades trains for the state Transportation Department.

...

The federal government recently granted $16 million to the transportation department for mudslide prevention throughout the state. The stretch between Everett and Seattle has been by far the most troublesome in recent years and all of that money will be funneled into work in the six targeted areas, Smelser said.

Officials from the Federal Railroad Administration visited the slide areas last month with personnel from the railway and the transportation department, Smelser said.

The state also has begun working with cities along the route to pinpoint areas where poor drainage control might be eroding slopes above the tracks, and eventually to see what measures could be taken there.

...

On Dec. 17, a slide bowled over several cars in a freight train as it moved below the bluffs near the Port of Everett. No one was injured.

This spot, just southwest of the downtown Everett waterfront, is one of the six targeted areas for repairs, said Gus Melonas, spokesman for BNSF Railway in Seattle.

Otherwise, state and railway officials aren't giving specific locations for the slide-prone slopes. Smelser said more detailed geotechnical and environmental work lies ahead before exact construction locations will be determined.

Work could include terracing of hillsides and installation of drainage pipelines, holding ponds and retaining walls, depending on the conditions at each location.

...

Because of the environmental and design work needed, some of the planned projects might not get under way this year, Smelser said.

While the slope work is expected to help, in the long run the best solution might be to improve drainage in neighborhoods above the slopes, Smelser said.

...

Ryan Sass, Everett city engineer, said city officials in January and February were hearing of new landslides below neighborhoods "on an almost daily basis."

Smelser said aerial photos and rainfall data are among the tools that will be used to study drainage issues, and the information will be correlated with where slides have happened.

"We are looking at all the components of slides -- geology, storm- and surface-water controls, vegetation management," said Larry Waters, public works director for Mukilteo.

One possible measure is a development ban in sensitive areas, though this would be up to local jurisdictions, Smelser said. Another element to come out of the study could be educating homeowners on ways to reduce the amount of water running off of their property, officials said.

 

[CHamilton]

From Amtrak_Cascades on Twitter:

Train 513 delayed south of Everett (up to 30 mins) while track workers remove a downed tree
Earlier downed tree west of Everett now causes 48 hr track closure between Everett & Seattle.

Train 513 will now return to Everett where buses will be available to Edmonds & Seattle.

Train 513 is anticipated to be over 1 hr late departing Seattle to Portland, using the train from Cascades 500

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

From Amtrak_Cascades on Twitter:

Train 513 delayed south of Everett (up to 30 mins) while track workers remove a downed tree
Earlier downed tree west of Everett now causes 48 hr track closure between Everett & Seattle.

Train 513 will now return to Everett where buses will be available to Edmonds & Seattle.

Train 513 is anticipated to be over 1 hr late departing Seattle to Portland, using the train from Cascades 500

So now just a downed tree causes the 48 hour closure, jeez,

 

[CHamilton]

Well, apparently a slide caused the tree blockage.

Mudslide cancels Sounder service between Seattle and Everett
Sounder service between Seattle and Everett has been canceled until at least Monday morning after a mudslide blocked two tracks around 10:30 this morning, according to BNSF Railway.

The mudslide occurred between Mukilteo and Edmonds, the railroad reports. Under BNSF 48-hour safety rules, Sounder service will resume Monday morning if there are no further slides and the slopes adjacent to the tracks remain stable.
...
There have been about 200 mudslides in the rail corridor between Seattle and Everett this past winter, and 82 of them have been classified as significant. In 50 cases the slides have blocked at least one track and triggered the two-day ban on passenger service.

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

Well, apparently a slide caused the tree blockage.

Mudslide cancels Sounder service between Seattle and Everett
Sounder service between Seattle and Everett has been canceled until at least Monday morning after a mudslide blocked two tracks around 10:30 this morning, according to BNSF Railway.

The mudslide occurred between Mukilteo and Edmonds, the railroad reports. Under BNSF 48-hour safety rules, Sounder service will resume Monday morning if there are no further slides and the slopes adjacent to the tracks remain stable.
...
There have been about 200 mudslides in the rail corridor between Seattle and Everett this past winter, and 82 of them have been classified as significant. In 50 cases the slides have blocked at least one track and triggered the two-day ban on passenger service.

A little miss information from Amtrak then, not terribly surprising.

 

[CHamilton]

Amtrak_Cascades12:17pm via engage121

All passenger trains on the Vancouver, BC -Seattle corridor will be replaced by buses between Everett, Edmonds & Seattle, until 3/23/13 10am

Including EB #7(21) arriving on Sat., unless it's a couple of hours late.

 

[CHamilton]

One of our AU friends who's on 7(21) coming into SEA this morning reports that they'll be waiting in Everett until the moratorium expires. The train is only 24 minutes late at Leavenworth, so that means they'll have to sit in EVT from 9:02 to 10:00. Oh well, I guess they'll have time for a leisurely breakfast.

 

[CHamilton]

Via Publicola:

Oregon Public Broadcasting reports that the epidemic of landslides that have repeatedly halted Amtrak, Sounder, and freight rail service between Seattle and Everett will likely get worse as the climate heats up and rainfall—which stresses soil and causes landslides—increases.In Washington, climate change is likely to lead to wetter winters—meaning more landslides even as Sound Transit tries to ramp up Sounder service and lawmakers consider the aforementioned coal terminal, which would dramatically increase train traffic along the landslide-prone route.

The above is actually a KUOW report (public radio in Seattle) but I can't find it on the KUOW website.

 

[Big Green Chauvanist]

Via Publicola:

Oregon Public Broadcasting reports that the epidemic of landslides that have repeatedly halted Amtrak, Sounder, and freight rail service between Seattle and Everett will likely get worse as the climate heats up and rainfall—which stresses soil and causes landslides—increases.In Washington, climate change is likely to lead to wetter winters—meaning more landslides even as Sound Transit tries to ramp up Sounder service and lawmakers consider the aforementioned coal terminal, which would dramatically increase train traffic along the landslide-prone route.

The above is actually a KUOW report (public radio in Seattle) but I can't find it on the KUOW website.

Seems like a no-brainer to me. Just means there is no time to waste to implement a thorough fix to this issue, and not some half-baked rush job.