Explanation for Bad Queues @ NYP & WAS

[VentureForth]

Here is an article from the Economist about a blogger who disagrees with boarding protocol at NYP and other large stations.

 

[TVRM610]

I understand how it works in NYP... But there is simply no excuse for the madness of Chicago Union Station.

Washington DC is sorta in the middle for me... It doesn't make sense and is slightly annoying... But it's not insanity like Chicago.

 

[Anderson]

The sad thing is that I tend to agree with the article: If Amtrak wants lots and lots of money to do stuff at those stations, they should first get their boarding procedures in order (and make clear that they're not just going to use the money to **** it up more).

And I agree...Chicago is beyond stupid, but boarding procedures aren't the only issue at Chicago.

 

[jis]

Here is an article from the Economist about a blogger who disagrees with boarding protocol at NYP and other large stations.

I think this is an excellent article that hits the nail right on the head. I also am sure that the Amtrak fanboys are truly ticked off by an article like this. I will just leave it at that.

 

[Ryan]

I dunno, I think that even the most ardent of Ampologists would agree with that article.

 

[amamba]

I don't really consider myself an amtrak apologist, and I am not really a fan of the queues in NYP, but I do think that comparing NJT boarding to amtrak boarding is something of a fallacy.

There are a few key differences. I think many of the NJT folks are commuters, and thus less likely to have big luggage and also more likely to "know the drill" so to speak. I think with more children and the elderly on amtrak, more people with lots of luggage, and more people that might not be familiar with boarding procedures, that it is a safety matter to keep the folks that are boarding off the platform until it is empty with the folks that have detrained.

 

[afigg]

I've encountered seriously overcrowded platforms at NYP on a Amtrak train that arrived in the morning just before a NJT train pulled in on the other side of the platform. My train was a few minutes late getting through the tunnels, so the platform unloading timing likely got thrown off. It was a scrum on that platform for a couple of minutes. I can see why Amtrak wants to control when people head down the platform. What Amtrak should do at NYP for large crowds, once the platform clears, is use both the east and west escalators to get passengers down to the platform.

In 2-3 years, the West End concourse will be widened and extended to provide additional access to the platforms for tracks 5 to 21. Amtrak should be planning to use the West End concourse as a second boarding area for the more experienced passengers who know where it is.

As for WAS, the plans for the station are to, in stages, rebuild the lower level and then upper level tracks and platforms with much wider platforms. If that happens, there should be no reason not to let people make their own way to the platforms, although I'm sure there will be random security checkpoints.

 

[jis]

I've encountered seriously overcrowded platforms at NYP on a Amtrak train that arrived in the morning just before a NJT train pulled in on the other side of the platform. My train was a few minutes late getting through the tunnels, so the platform unloading timing likely got thrown off. It was a scrum on that platform for a couple of minutes. I can see why Amtrak wants to control when people head down the platform. What Amtrak should do at NYP for large crowds, once the platform clears, is use both the east and west escalators to get passengers down to the platform.

Crowd controlling is absolutely a legitimate concern. but what Amtrak does goes way beyond what is necessary to effectively control crowd. I for one would not be in favor of letting people get to platform in New York Penn until it is deemed safe. But once that is the case, it does not make sense to let people trickle down one at a time through one single staircase/escalator. Fortunately most savvy people simply avoid that mess which actually keeps the silliness from collapsing under its own weight.
As a matter of fact they should encourage using all available stairs instead of kindegarten marching through one single set of stairs/escalator. NJT does manage to load their trains with many more people boarding much faster mainly because they use all available stairs, as does LIRR.

Actually the mix of train savvy vs. train rookie in the Amtrak crowd is no different from that in the NJT crowd. Afterall NJT does run a lot of trains in non rush hours, when the clientele is any combination of random families coming to visit New York, or families going out to the beach or whatever. Same is true of LIRR, and indeed their entire weekend service specially on the east end of the South Shore is completely geared towards leisure travel.

 

[benjibear]

I am not too familiar with NYP so maybe this is a stupid question. At NYP which several stairs leading to the platform, why doesn't Amtrak utilize some of the stairs as exit only and some as entrances? Once the train pulls in and comes to a complete stop, they can open the entrances and allow people to access the platforms while people exiting go the opposite direction to get off.

Also, for trains that terminate in NYP (i.e. crescent, silvers, Pennsylvanian, Keystones, etc.), I assume they pull those out of the station to somewhere to clean and get ready for the next trip. How early before departure does the train pull onto the platform. Can they arrive earlier to start loading earlier? At WAS it seams the train is sitting on the platform, ready to go, and you still can not board until a few minutes before.

 

[amamba]

As a matter of fact they should encourage using all available stairs instead of kindegarten marching through one single set of stairs/escalator. NJT does manage to load their trains with many more people boarding much faster mainly because they use all available stairs, as does LIRR.

I agree with this.

 

[VentureForth]

To the author's point, when I was in NYC for those few short hours back in May, I happened to wind up at the Lexington subway station. Not any better or worse than what I've experienced in Japan - but it was bordering on uncomfortable. It was early on a Saturday evening, though.

The blessing of my experience with NYP was that I arrived at 11:15 AM on a Saturday and left at 6:15 on Sunday morning. Never got to "experience" the madness of legend.

 

[Eric S]

The sad thing is that I tend to agree with the article: If Amtrak wants lots and lots of money to do stuff at those stations, they should first get their boarding procedures in order (and make clear that they're not just going to use the money to **** it up more).
And I agree...Chicago is beyond stupid, but boarding procedures aren't the only issue at Chicago.

This. A thousand times, this.

What's the German (I think?) expression: Organization before electronics before concrete.

 

[PaulM]

From a comment to the original article:

I don't know the solution but I used Amtrak from NYC->DC last September and I also noticed the ridiculous queue that formed, snaking across the concourse and blocking the way of anyone trying to actually walk through the station.

I'm not that familiar with NYP; but based on this, it's the same as Chicago. I'll be a fan boy here and say that the only thing beyond stupid about Chicago are the ridiculous queues that form long before the gate is opened, snaking out to the ticketing area and blocking the way of anyone trying to actually walk through the station. I've never actually seen a gate attendant force someone to get in line.

Another one:

Or why is it that passengers at Zurich main station, which sees a volume of up to 3'000 trains a day and is one of the world's busiest stations in terms of trains dispatched, can perfectly well wait on any platform for as long as they desire?

The reason is that the platforms in Zurich (and Munich, Frankfurt, Vienna, etc.) are to Chicago's as the Champs-Élysées is to a passage way in Venice. Another reason is that golf carts that take up more than half of the platform don't service trains in Europe.

 

[AlanB]

I am not too familiar with NYP so maybe this is a stupid question. At NYP which several stairs leading to the platform, why doesn't Amtrak utilize some of the stairs as exit only and some as entrances? Once the train pulls in and comes to a complete stop, they can open the entrances and allow people to access the platforms while people exiting go the opposite direction to get off.

This issue at NYP is that most platforms have at most 6 points of egress. Of those 6 points, only 2 reach the Amtrak waiting area & main lobby. Two other points access the NJT area and the other 2 points access the lower, LIRR level. Further complicating things is that they could well be boarding or detraining a train from another agency on the same platform as the Amtrak train.

So for example, they could be boarding an NJT train from the east end of the station/platform at the same time they're boarding an Amtrak train from the west end of the station. This should not be confused with the east & west gates found in the Amtrak boarding area.

Also, for trains that terminate in NYP (i.e. crescent, silvers, Pennsylvanian, Keystones, etc.), I assume they pull those out of the station to somewhere to clean and get ready for the next trip. How early before departure does the train pull onto the platform. Can they arrive earlier to start loading earlier? At WAS it seams the train is sitting on the platform, ready to go, and you still can not board until a few minutes before.

At most long distance trains originating at NYP arrive a half hour before departure, and often it's even less than that. Amtrak can't afford to park a train at NYP for a couple of hours during the day. Corridor trains usually don't arrive more than 20 minutes before departure and often less than that.

 

[jis]

At most long distance trains originating at NYP arrive a half hour before departure, and often it's even less than that. Amtrak can't afford to park a train at NYP for a couple of hours during the day. Corridor trains usually don't arrive more than 20 minutes before departure and often less than that.

And Commuter trains as little as ten minutes before departure, and sometimes less.
LIRR and NJT both at times send people down to the platform before the train has arrived at the platform, to reduce pressure at concourse level. Afterall, it is they who have to deal with real crowds. Amtrak's crowds are insignificant compared to what LIRR and NJT have to handle.

 

[Shanghai]

I travel frequently through NYP. I think the best single improvement that can be

made to crowd control is proper maintenance of the escalators. The frequency

of out of order escalators is unacceptable.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

You guys are making me so glad I'm at a "small" station.

The only time I've seen it crowded was when there were a bunch of train fanatics descending on the station last Oct. :giggle:

 

[TVRM610]

I was under the impression that NYC laws require that escalators are only operational 30-50% of the time? (I'm being sarcastic)

 

[jis]

And even when they are operational it is a requirement that more than half of them run in the direction that no one is going at the moment.

 

[jimhudson]

I was under the impression that NYC laws require that escalators are only operational 30-50% of the time? (I'm being sarcastic)

Also that be running in the Opposite Direction of the appropriate Direction of Travel desired!

 

[jis]

Great people think alike

 

[Ryan]

You guys are making me so glad I'm at a "small" station.
The only time I've seen it crowded was when there were a bunch of train fanatics descending on the station last Oct. :giggle:

Those were some creepy looking folks to be sure.

I travel frequently through NYP. I think the best single improvement that can bemade to crowd control is proper maintenance of the escalators. The frequency

of out of order escalators is unacceptable.

Maybe they can take lessons from WMATA?

 

[benjibear]

Thanks for the answers. Maybe I need a trip to NYP to explore more in detail. Anyone have a good map?

I think the more and more I hear issues at other stations, Philadelphia is about the best station out of the top 4 (NYP, WAS, PHL, and CHI).

 

[jis]

PHL has its own kindergarten march though. They also refuse to use all available stairs to board a train. But they do send people down to platform before the train arrives. Actually, if they did not do that they'd break NEC schedules.

 

[AlanB]

LIRR and NJT both at times send people down to the platform before the train has arrived at the platform, to reduce pressure at concourse level. Afterall, it is they who have to deal with real crowds. Amtrak's crowds are insignificant compared to what LIRR and NJT have to handle.

Which probably lends itself to another reason why Amtrak does what it does at NYP. Since it is easier for Amtrak to control things and because they share the platforms with NJT & the LIRR, it is better for Amtrak to hold people off the platform until the 10 minute mark and the train is in the station.