Viewliner II - Part 1 - Initial Production and Delivery

[jis]

Pioneer trucks used with Amfleets are a bit finicky. That has not much to do with Amfleet per se except for the fact that they use those trucks. The air suspension proved to be a pain to maintain and was eventually canned completely. The justification for using Pioneer trucks was to reduce overall weight of the cars, which was not a bad reason at all.

Other than maintenance issues with Pioneer and also the German trucks under Super Is I don;t recall any significant mechanical issues related to running gear. Mostly they had normal teething issues.

Incidentally, the Horizon cars were derived from Comet cars of which many hundred had been delivered previously. For that matter the Amfleet cars were pretty much the old Metroliner cars on lighter trucks. Nothing terribly special other than the furnishing for either of those.

Compared to those the NJT Comet Vs were a walking disaster, and some of their problems still persist. OTOH, the MLVs have been surprisingly free of trouble, except for automatic door issues. But they don;t have issues as bad as the Comet Vs do/did.Introduction of ALP46s by NJT had some transformer catching fire issues initially, but was fixed quickly. The introduction of the 46As have been surprisingly free of trouble even though internally they are completely new engine, even though they look like the old 46s.

It is really hard to guess how an introduction will go until you live through it.

 

[afigg]

The FY15 budget & business plan, FY16 budget justification and FY15-19 Five Year financial plan document has been posted to the Amtrak website. We should start a separate thread on the document as there is a LOT of material and information in it, but it does provide updates on the plans (and hopes and dreams) for the CAF Viewliner II order. To wit:

Long Distance Single Level Cars -Amtrak entered into a contract with CAF USA for delivery of 130 long-distance single level cars, designated as Viewliner II, for use on Long Distance trains, primarily over routes where clearances prevent the operation of bi-level Superliner equipment. The order has been amended to better meet the needs of the business and now consists of 70 baggage cars, 10 crew dorm cars, 25 diners and 25 sleeping cars. The first baggage car of the order was received in May 2014 for testing. Deliveries of additional cars began in the First Quarter of FY15, and the final unit will be delivered by the end of April 2016. The total project cost will be $342.8 million.

Payment for acquisition of these cars and related spare parts is being funded by annual Federal capital appropriations and operating revenues that exceeded projections.

In the Expected Fleet Availability table (Exhibit 2-1) they project that 68 Viewliner IIs will be in the active fleet by the end of FY15. Of course, they have totally missed the delivery schedule for the new Viewliners in the 2 previous FY budgets, so it may be more optimistic thinking. OTOH, that could be 68 baggage cars by the end of September.
The FY15 budget also states that the project to implement Wi-Fi on the eastern single level LD fleet is in progress. Likely tied in with the Viewliner II deliveries as it would make sense for the new diner and sleeper cars to come with Wi-Fi hubs built in.

 

[neroden]

So then the prolonged absence of any official entry date for these, the long gaps between them (the last we saw and heard was the december movement of over 20 cars, then, silence), is in fact, de facto confirmation that something very bad has happened with this order.

Absoutely not. All the evidence is that the problems are quality control issues, and that Amtrak is on top of it. This is really *annoying*, but not "very bad". The most likely result will be that the cars get fixed and are OK in the end, that they show up late, and that Amtrak gets discounts due to the delays. Which from Amtrak's point of view (always cash-starved) is actually pretty decent.

 

[neroden]

Is it really CAF's fault? Were the requirements set by Amtrak too vague? Too strict?

Look, what I was told is that CAF was having trouble hiring suitable workers in Elmira. I believe that.

How do you talk a skilled worker elsewhere into moving to Elmira, where their spouse may be unable to find a job? If you are hiring unskilled workers, then you have to train them up from scratch, which takes years (and would account for delays!)

I would not blame CAF or Amtrak; the result is pretty much caused by the Buy American rules, which both of them are stuck with. I can't even blame them for locating in Elmira; the factory is well-located and has good equipment, and NY State was offering discounts and deals to move there.

I think there was a failure to pay attention to the state of the labor market in Elmira prior to locating the factory there.

The most colorful comment made by the fellow I talked to in Chicago was "Either they can't read a blueprint or they can't pass a drug test", regarding the hiring process. I'm sure this is a slight exaggeration. (Personally, I'd hire the ones who can read blueprints correctly while on drugs, but federal procurement rules probably prohibit this! ;-) )

But my point is that the design of these cars is fine; there are issues with execution. As long as Amtrak is assiduous about quality control, Amtrak is going to get some very good cars, at discount prices, late. But there may be a lot of "back to the factory to be redone" in the meantime.

The thing is, once all the problems are worked out, CAF *will* have a competent, well-trained workforce who knows how to make these particular cars at least (this having been a *learning experience*). So if I were at Amtrak, I would have no compunction about exercising the options.

 

[R30A]

Based on the number of heritage baggage cars planned as active at the end of this fiscal year (0), it appears as if all the Viewliners being delivered this fiscal year will be baggage cars(perhaps some Baggage dorms).

 

[neroden]

Different area of the country. New York State is not know for its heavy welding work places.

You remember that CAF was advertising for certified stainless steel welders a year or two ago? Well after they were supposed to have produced some of the Viewliners?
Yeah.

They may have ended up having to train their stainless steel welders from scratch. That takes time.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Is it really CAF's fault? Were the requirements set by Amtrak too vague? Too strict?

Look, what I was told is that CAF was having trouble hiring suitable workers in Elmira. I believe that.

...

The most colorful comment made by the fellow I talked to in Chicago was "Either they can't read a blueprint or they can't pass a drug test", regarding the hiring process. I'm sure this is a slight exaggeration. (Personally, I'd hire the ones who can read blueprints correctly while on drugs, but federal procurement rules probably prohibit this! ;-) )

...

The drug test rule is surely by the wisdom of Congress, and truly stoopid.

They are testing for marijuana, which leaves traces in the urine for 30 days or so,

while the observable effects, like the infamous Cheeto cravings, are all gone

in a few hours, or at most after a good night's sleep.

I'd have no problem buying products made by weekend users of marijuana.

Or morning users. I'd prefer they be mellowed out on the weed than having

downed a couple of brews (never tested for) on the way in to work. Let's be real.

 

[Paulus]

The drug test rule is surely by the wisdom of Congress, and truly stoopid.

They are testing for marijuana, which leaves traces in the urine for 30 days or so,

while the observable effects, like the infamous Cheeto cravings, are all gone

in a few hours, or at most after a good night's sleep.

I'd have no problem buying products made by weekend users of marijuana.

Or morning users. I'd prefer they be mellowed out on the weed than having

downed a couple of brews (never tested for) on the way in to work. Let's be real.

If someone can't stay off weed for a month in order to get the job, I doubt their willingness to stay off of it coming in to work as well.

 

[PaulM]

All the evidence is that the problems are quality control issues, and that Amtrak is on top of it. This is really *annoying*, but not "very bad". The most likely result will be that the cars get fixed and are OK in the end, that they show up late, and that Amtrak gets discounts due to the delays. Which from Amtrak's point of view (always cash-starved) is actually pretty decent.

Stainless steel welder problems could account for the multi-year delivery delay; but not the vacation in Florida. Could you give examples of QC issues that were not caught before delivery? Wouldn't CAF have run a few of the cars on a real track before delivery. Or test on-board systems like toilets? Doesn't CAF have a QA department?

It's ironic in a way. Amtrak's customers perform the quality assurance function when it comes to train service; and you seem to be saying that Amtrak is performing QA for CAF.

 

[neroden]

What real track would CAF test on? CAF's own track at the factory is miniscule (go look at it on Google Earth), and NS is bound to be uncooperative. I suppose Amtrak could send its people up to CAF, but it may have been more expedient to send the cars to Hialeah rather than sending the Hialeah supervisors to Elmira.

you seem to be saying that Amtrak is performing QA for CAF.

Even though I'd assume CAF does its own QA, it's just due diligence at this point for Amtrak to repeat the QA. Especially with the known earlier problems with welding.

 

[PRR 60]

What real track would CAF test on? CAF's own track at the factory is miniscule (go look at it on Google Earth), and NS is bound to be uncooperative. I suppose Amtrak could send its people up to CAF, but it may have been more expedient to send the cars to Hialeah rather than sending the Hialeah supervisors to Elmira.

you seem to be saying that Amtrak is performing QA for CAF.

Even though I'd assume CAF does its own QA, it's just due diligence at this point for Amtrak to repeat the QA. Especially with the known earlier problems with welding.

If Amtrak did not have independent QA monitoring of the manufacturing process at the shop, then they should get some new project management people. The are plenty of contractors who perform that kind of service, and perform it well. Amtrak should not be performing any extensive QA after the cars are delivered to a location 1000 miles remote from the assembly shop. Everything should have been inspected and certified by Amtrak before the cars left the shop. Project Management 101.

The initial on-road testing of the initially released cars prove the specs, design and detailing. QC/QA during assembly ensures the production cars meet the approved specs, design and detailing. Once production cars leave the shop, any final punch-list items found later should be few and minor. Why the cars are still sitting in Miami several months after release is anyone's guess. It could be something simple like establishing parts inventory and training for routine maintenance before putting the cars on the road. However, if they are finding serious issues with assembly quality with the cars already in Hialeah, then Amtrak would be as much to blame as CAF.

 

[neroden]

The are plenty of contractors who perform that kind of service, and perform it well.

Name three with specialization in railroads. Then tell me how much they charge. I would bet that Amtrak *has* to do this with Amtrak staff. You can't really subcontract oversight; that way lies madness, and it's destroyed a lot of companies.

Amtrak should not be performing any extensive QA after the cars are delivered to a location 1000 miles remote from the assembly shop.

The nice thing about rolling stock is that it's easy to move. Suppose Amtrak goes through all the cars and finds that 28 of them are fine and 2 have to be returned... would that be easier to do by sending Amtrak's people up to CAF? Maybe not.

 

[cirdan]

The initial on-road testing of the initially released cars prove the specs, design and detailing. QC/QA during assembly ensures the production cars meet the approved specs, design and detailing. Once production cars leave the shop, any final punch-list items found later should be few and minor. Why the cars are still sitting in Miami several months after release is anyone's guess. It could be something simple like establishing parts inventory and training for routine maintenance before putting the cars on the road. However, if they are finding serious issues with assembly quality with the cars already in Hialeah, then Amtrak would be as much to blame as CAF.

I spent half a year as an intern with a rolling stock manufacturer in the testing department.

The number of things that can be wrong is seemingly infinite. When you think you've seen it all something else will turn up.

Youi can't compare this to automobile manufacturing where the far larger scale leads to a very homogenous process.

So although a lot of errors are detected and rectified, there are always a couple that will slip through.

 

[StriderGDM]

And honestly, as frustrating as it may be, it's been only 2 months. My guess is, among other things is they'd rather release say 4 or 8 at a time into service than 1 or 2.

That way they can replace a large group (say an entire route's worth at once) and ensure they're making a large leap in improvements, not slowly trickling in "yet another car type" into the fleet.

And with the winter the Northeast has been having, do they really want to introduce something new into the area right now?

I mean as much as it would be nice to have them, are we really losing anything useful right now?

 

[NE933]

Yes, we are losing not only capacity and, a sort of 'wow' factor that will would cause a dreary population to look at long distance trains as their ticket to get the hell out of the snow and at sunnier locales, but also the chance to see how well they perform in extreme temperatures.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Yes, we are losing not only capacity and, a sort of 'wow' factor that will would cause a dreary population to look at long distance trains as their ticket to get the hell out of the snow and at sunnier locales, but also the chance to see how well they perform in extreme temperatures.

Just to clarify - we're still talking about baggage cars, right?

 

[VentureForth]

Amtrak should not be performing any extensive QA after the cars are delivered to a location 1000 miles remote from the assembly shop.

The nice thing about rolling stock is that it's easy to move. Suppose Amtrak goes through all the cars and finds that 28 of them are fine and 2 have to be returned... would that be easier to do by sending Amtrak's people up to CAF? Maybe not.

Design the car. Test components. Assemble prototype. Start production. Test prototype. Re-engineer flaws. Re-evaluate. Incorporate changes into units on assembly line, roll rev change for future starts.

This should ALL be done by CAF, NOT AMTRAK unless they have some wonky provision in their contract stating so. CAF should be responsible for the building, testing and certification. In this weird case, Amtrak is not only the customer, but part of the certification process. But this should be accomplished on the prototypes. First few production units may see some re-work, but that's expected. When all is grand, THEN ramp up full production rate and turn them over to Amtrak for revenue.

But to 8uild 20-40-80?, give them to your customer, transport them 1000 miles, and sit on them? It doesn't make sense.

 

[jis]

Amtrak should be doing acceptance test on each unit as they are received irrespective of how many certification tests the basic design has passed. Each unit is slightly different, and that is reality. There should be an agreed upon acceptance test suite that each unit should go through. They are doing so for the ACS's for example, and certainly should do so for the Viewliners too.

If units fail acceptance test, then the song and dance begins about when and how to get them fixed and who pays for what. We may be sitting at this point. If the customer's testers are a thousand miles away, and that was the agreed upon delivery point, then yes, they move thousand miles and then sit there. It makes perfect sense to me, given such a scenario.

 

[Guest]

The nice thing about rolling stock is that it's easy to move. Suppose Amtrak goes through all the cars and finds that 28 of them are fine and 2 have to be returned... would that be easier to do by sending Amtrak's people up to CAF? Maybe not.

Makes me wonder, too, what if the defects are truck or coupler related?

But to 8uild 20-40-80?, give them to your customer, transport them 1000 miles, and sit on them? It doesn't make sense.

Makes me also wonder if this is simply to support payment/billing? As soon as Amtrak moves them out, be it 1 mile or 1,000 miles, it has accepted the cars and payment can be demanded. Amtrak seems to me, to still be working like a government bureaucracy, and with vendors calling a lot of the shots.

 

[afigg]

Amtrak should be doing acceptance test on each unit as they are received irrespective of how many certification tests the basic design has passed. Each unit is slightly different, and that is reality. There should be an agreed upon acceptance test suite that each unit should go through. They are doing so for the ACS's for example, and certainly should do so for the Viewliners too.

If units fail acceptance test, then the song and dance begins about when and how to get them fixed and who pays for what. We may be sitting at this point. If the customer's testers are a thousand miles away, and that was the agreed upon delivery point, then yes, they move thousand miles and then sit there. It makes perfect sense to me, given such a scenario.

Or the hold-up could simply be that the baggage cars at Hialeah are waiting for the final FRA certification before they can be released to revenue service. Or they have to complete the training and qualification of enough maintenance and on-board personnel before the new cars cam be released into the wild.

 

[afigg]

Well, there are photos available in the just posted Jan/Feb 2015 issue of the Amtrak Ink magazine (3.5 MB PDF) of the inspection process in Hialeah for those questioning whether anything is being done with the first 18 baggage cars moved there in December. The photos are on pages 10 and 11.

Text excerpt from the Amtrak Ink issue:

The Amtrak program to modernize its long-distance train equipment advanced to a key milestone on Wednesday, December 17, 2015, when 18 new baggage cars departed the CAF USA Elmira, New York, facility and traveled to Amtrak’s Hialeah maintenance facility in Florida for final inspections before acceptance.

After arriving in Hialeah, the baggage cars went through a final round of inspections before being accepted. The baggage cars are expected to enter revenue service in 2015 and will be used on Amtrak’s long-distance routes. The baggage cars are part of a larger order for 130 single-level, long-distance passenger cars, including diner, sleeper and bag-dorm cars. All four car types will modernize the Amtrak fleet, improve reliability and maintenance, upgrade passenger amenities and travel at speeds up to 125 mph.

Since the text is in the past tense, "went through a final round of inspections before being accepted", that obviously implies that the cars have been officially accepted. So perhaps, we will soon indeed begin to see shiny new baggage cars showing up in revenue service.

 

[NE933]

It's sad when you have to use the word "perhaps" in the sentence describing when they'll enter service, nearly two years late.

Actually, 20 years late. A fleet of 300 or so Viewliners was to have been keystones of the eastern long distance fleet back in the early 90's, before Congress and ex Pres.s erased the money for them.

 

[neroden]

The nice thing about rolling stock is that it's easy to move. Suppose Amtrak goes through all the cars and finds that 28 of them are fine and 2 have to be returned... would that be easier to do by sending Amtrak's people up to CAF? Maybe not.

Makes me wonder, too, what if the defects are truck or coupler related?

If so, then it wouldn't be a good idea to move them, yes. I'm pretty sure the problems at issue aren't systemic truck or coupler problems. Those, they *would* have to check before moving them! Though it's worth nothing that trucks can be swapped, and are swapped. I'm not even sure CAF is making the trucks in-house; they may be buying a standard truck.
Not so long ago, there were serious problems with a couple of the newly delivered ACS-64s discussed on another forum... just because some wiring had been plugged together wrong. I would expect that they are checking stuff like that (especially with the "can't read a blueprint" comment).

----

It's unfortunate that CAF was unable to deliver on time, but that is water under the bridge now. Hopefully CAF has managed to acquire suitable staff at this point.

So, we should start pushing for a small exercise of the options. I think there are plenty of baggage cars on order. An option should focus on bag-dorms and sleepers.

Though I'd order 3 more diners to insure against potential future wrecks, service expansions, or shortage of Superliners. It will never be economical to order just a few diners unless it's an option on this order. And while keeping a reserve fleet of identical Heritage baggage cars may make sense, that doesn't seem likely to be possible with the diners. (I don't think there are more than 3 of a kind: 8505, 8507, 8552 are from the same original lot and had the Temoinsa rebuild.)

 

[StriderGDM]

I'm in full agreement on trying to exercise the option. Both for wreck repair/replacement and possible expansion.

More baggage cars could easily be added to existing trains giving more options. (For example, train 280 from Buffalo could do well, and feed into LD trains in NYC. This way I wouldn't have to carry my bags on 280 only to check them on 19.)

 

[Ryan]

There's more to adding baggage service than slapping on a baggage car. The stations have to be manned and open at the time the train calls, dwell time has to be increased at stations to account for baggage handling, etc.