Viewliner II - Part 1 - Initial Production and Delivery

[John Bredin]

Choosing differently than you would isn't incompetence. Plenty of people like a toilet in their sleeper, but plenty don't. I have a friend who was grossed out when she toured a Viewliner during a National Train Day and realized there'd be a toliet a foot away as she sleeps.

My one time in a Viewliner roomette (Lake Shore Limited on a blizzardy Christmas Day), the toilets weren't working in my car, so I didn't really have a toilet in my room either. IF the common-toilet design allows Amtrak to better keep the pipes unfrozen than a toilet in each roomette, I think it's an improvement.

 

[PerRock]

My one time in a Viewliner roomette (Lake Shore Limited on a blizzardy Christmas Day), the toilets weren't working in my car, so I didn't really have a toilet in my room either. IF the common-toilet design allows Amtrak to better keep the pipes unfrozen than a toilet in each roomette, I think it's an improvement.

I think the under-car cowling will help more for keeping the pipes un-frozen then the number of bathrooms.

I just thought of something however. Presumably in both the Viewliner I & IIs all the pipes & electronics are stored under the car (in the 1s their exposed, on the 2 their in their own housing) how do all the individual room modules connect to these pipes and cables?

peter

 

[neroden]

I just thought of something however. Presumably in both the Viewliner I & IIs all the pipes & electronics are stored under the car (in the 1s their exposed, on the 2 their in their own housing) how do all the individual room modules connect to these pipes and cables?

Very carefully.
That is probably 3/4 of the work of installing the modules!

 

[VentureForth]

Any idea when these will enter revenue service? A tough question perhaps, as these don't really generate revenue, per se.

 

[neroden]

On my last trip, I chatted with an Amtrak employee in Chicago who said he had been assigned to the Viewliner II project well after it started.

I don't want to repeat everything he said because I'm sure it wasn't for publication, but basically he said they were having quality control issues, and that CAF was having difficulty with hiring/training/etc. skilled workers in Elmira. Which matches with the reasons for delay which we've heard before.

The industrial base of upstate NY is hollowed out and well-trained industrial workers have moved elsewhere. I, personally, suspect CAF, coming from well-educated Spain, didn't realize the hiring environment they were walking into, and wasn't prepared to train its workers from scratch from middle school level, and also wasn't prepared to pay extra to poach workers from other parts of the country.

So, frankly, I think we get the new Viewliners when Amtrak is satisfied that the quality is up to snuff, and I see no way of predicting when that will be. It's better to get the quality control done right than to accept inferior products, however.

 

[fulham]

Did the fellow mention anything about the baggage cars? Has Amtrak actually taken possession of these cars or are there still quality control issues that are being worked out?

 

[neroden]

He was vague. But it sounded like each one was individually being quality-checked in Hialeah with a fine-toothed comb.

 

[Bus Nut]

The industrial base of upstate NY is hollowed out and well-trained industrial workers have moved elsewhere. I, personally, suspect CAF, coming from well-educated Spain, didn't realize the hiring environment they were walking into, and wasn't prepared to train its workers from scratch from middle school level, and also wasn't prepared to pay extra to poach workers from other parts of the country.

Maybe they should have located to Illinois. Or Ohio. Or Michigan. Hire from same pool that builds autos. You couldn't be more right about the manufacturing hollowing out. It's sad.

 

[Viewliners]

Two Viewliner baggage cars are rumored to be leaving Hialeah this week. Possibly tomorrow or Thursday. Not sure where they are headed, or how, but it may have something to do with final FRA inspection/certification/etc. From what I understand the cars are ready and just need final certification for service from the FRA.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Absolutely no room for messing up. You can still hear people

talking about how the wheels fell off the Acelas (hyperbole,

but a core of truth) after they entered service.

With a Congress full of haters, Amtrak can't afford to blunder

on new cars, not if it wants to ever order any more.

btw, I console myself thinking that CAF and Amtrak may have

worked out an informal (or formal and not disclosed) extension

of the option date. For a number of reasons, we're more likely

to see more Viewliner IIs if the order can go in next year or

the next, but not just yet.

 

[PRR 60]

Absolutely no room for messing up. You can still hear people

talking about how the wheels fell off the Acelas (hyperbole,

but a core of truth) after they entered service.

With a Congress full of haters, Amtrak can't afford to blunder

on new cars, not if it wants to ever order any more.

btw, I console myself thinking that CAF and Amtrak may have

worked out an informal (or formal and not disclosed) extension

of the option date. For a number of reasons, we're more likely

to see more Viewliner IIs if the order can go in next year or

the next, but not just yet.

I have a feeling that Amtrak wants nothing to do with any additional cars from CAF. Just a hunch.

 

[neroden]

btw, I console myself thinking that CAF and Amtrak may have

worked out an informal (or formal and not disclosed) extension

of the option date. For a number of reasons, we're more likely

to see more Viewliner IIs if the order can go in next year or

the next, but not just yet.

It does seem that all the delays are due to QC and difficulty staffing up. But if it gets to the point where quality out of CAF is satisfactory -- and I'd think it would get to that point *eventually*, though goodness knows when -- then I would expect the following:

-- CAF would probably be a bit desperate to regain their reputation, so would be happy to build option cars at good prices

-- Amtrak would be interested in getting said option cars, as long as they're identical to the existing ones which have been vetted. (As in, we're already dealing with these, a larger fleet is easier than a smaller fleet.)

I would not, however, expect CAF to get any future order for single-level coaches (or cafes/lounges/observation cars).

 

[WoodyinNYC]

… quality control issues, and that CAF was having difficulty with hiring/training/etc. skilled workers in Elmira….

The industrial base of upstate NY is hollowed out and well-trained industrial workers have moved elsewhere. I ... suspect CAF … didn't realize the hiring environment they were walking into, and wasn't prepared to train its workers from scratch from middle school level, and also wasn't prepared to pay extra to poach workers from other parts of the country.

Hope none of this applies to Rochelle, Illinois

with the new plant and crew for assembling

bi-levels for the Midwest and West Coast states.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Different area of the country. New York State is not know for its heavy welding work places. Sure we make stuff, but fire safes, plastic sprayers, power-drinks, apple products, and the odd chemical plant is not heavy manufacturing.

The Rochelle plant is just off two different interstates and is in a industrialized area. A lot of work goes on in and around the town. They have been issues for them but they seem to be handle it better.

 

[Bus Nut]

Absolutely no room for messing up. You can still hear people

talking about how the wheels fell off the Acelas (hyperbole,

but a core of truth) after they entered service.

Not quite, the brakes cracked. There was no wreck; they didn't pass inspection. Something to remember when folks get to whining about all the safety procedures in the rulebook. They're there for a reason, to protect your impatient self!

 

[Bus Nut]

Two Viewliner baggage cars are rumored to be leaving Hialeah this week. Possibly tomorrow or Thursday. Not sure where they are headed, or how, but it may have something to do with final FRA inspection/certification/etc. From what I understand the cars are ready and just need final certification for service from the FRA.

W00t! I hope a railfan can snap some pictures as they make their way out of Florida.

 

[NE933]

So then the prolonged absence of any official entry date for these, the long gaps between them (the last we saw and heard was the december movement of over 20 cars, then, silence), is in fact, de facto confirmation that something very bad has happened with this order. It has to be. Badly needed new cars that can only help revenue and passenger experience is deliberately delayed, with no spoken cause.

 

[andersone]

I much prefer and exhaustive testing mode that insures quality. We will have to live with these cars for a long time, make em right.

 

[MikefromCrete]

… quality control issues, and that CAF was having difficulty with hiring/training/etc. skilled workers in Elmira….

The industrial base of upstate NY is hollowed out and well-trained industrial workers have moved elsewhere. I ... suspect CAF … didn't realize the hiring environment they were walking into, and wasn't prepared to train its workers from scratch from middle school level, and also wasn't prepared to pay extra to poach workers from other parts of the country.

Hope none of this applies to Rochelle, Illinois

with the new plant and crew for assembling

bi-levels for the Midwest and West Coast states.

Nippon-Shayro seems to be doing a good job on Metra's new electric Highliners. I haven't heard of any problems with them. So I expect the much less complicated order for locomotive-hauled double-deckers for Midwest states and California to come out on schedule and in good shape. CAF's handling of the Viewliner II's has been terrible. The delays have just been awful. Not one car from this order is yet in service. I would hope Amtrak stays far away from CAF for any future orders.

 

[VentureForth]

Is it really CAF's fault? Were the requirements set by Amtrak too vague? Too strict? It seems like ANYONE who does business with Amtrak has issues, whereas other rail groups (ie: Metra, Denton A Train, DART, and hosts of other systems) don't seem to squeal near as much.

SOMETHING is wrong when the new Talgos, Acela, Viewliner IIs and other Amtrak orders all seem to struggle more than the average transport-political machine. Siemen's new engines seem to be pretty good - may be the best order fulfilled to date for Amtrak.

 

[Ryan]

Who was around when the Superliners and Amfleets were delivered?

 

[jis]

So what problems did Amfleets and Superliners have? Can't recall much of anything regarding them during their delivery. Viewliner Is were problematic starting with the choice of the manufacturer, which was done more in a fit of misguided national pride than based on anything practical. So the problems were entirely expected and they did unfold, ultimately a foreign company coming to the rescue at the end of it all.

Coming to think of it, how about the AEM-7s and even the F40s and P40/42s? What huge problems were faced during delivery. I can't discern any specific pattern in all this. Oh yeah, E60s and the Pooches were not exactly smooth sailing. OTOH, the Horizons were not problem AFAIR.

 

[spacecadet]

So what problems did Amfleets and Superliners have?

They had quite a few problems, although I'm not sure if they were major or minor from a real maintenance perspective. The original Amfleets (and I think the Superliner I's too), for example, had pneumatic or hydraulic doors that worked for about a day before breaking down. (They were pretty cool when they worked; they looked and sounded like Star Trek doors.) I can remember walking through trains where it seemed like almost every door was flapping open and closed, and where pressing the buttons did nothing, you just had to manually pull the doors open and hold them as you walked through. This system seemed to have been pretty quickly changed to electric motors, and that seemed to fix the problem.

I recall there being some problem with the Amfleet I's trucks being maintenance hogs too; something about the air bladders losing air more quickly than they were supposed to. I'm not sure if this was also an issue in the Superliners, which use a different truck design.

And while this is anecdotal, I rode on Amfleet and Superliner cars often in the early 80's and it seemed like things were always broken on both. The dumbwaiters on Superliner dining cars, microwaves or refrigerators on either or both, the heat on Amfleet cars, doors, bathrooms, you name it. These cars always seemed a lot more fragile right from the factory than the cars they were replacing.

They actually seem in a lot better shape now than when they were brand new.

 

[afigg]

Is it really CAF's fault? Were the requirements set by Amtrak too vague? Too strict? It seems like ANYONE who does business with Amtrak has issues, whereas other rail groups (ie: Metra, Denton A Train, DART, and hosts of other systems) don't seem to squeal near as much.

SOMETHING is wrong when the new Talgos, Acela, Viewliner IIs and other Amtrak orders all seem to struggle more than the average transport-political machine. Siemen's new engines seem to be pretty good - may be the best order fulfilled to date for Amtrak.

Many of the commuter rail equipment purchases are for coach cars from existing product lines. Once the problems are worked out with the first customer, you would not expect many serious production issues with the follow-on orders from other transit agencies. Amtrak, OTOH, is ordering more specialized equipment with regards to the US market, namely intercity passenger rail equipment, which are not off the shelf orders.
You are also overlooking recent equipment order problems and major schedule slips by other transit agencies: SEPTA with the SilverLiner V and the WMATA Series 7000 car order come to mind. Ok, the earthquake and tsunami in Japan stalling the design and build of the first 4 cars for testing was a good excuse for the initial delays for the DC Metro Series 7000 car deliveries. The Siemens ACS-64 roll-out has not been entirely smooth either. The initial deployment numbers missed any number of schedule dates.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Very good synopsis of the early problems with the Superliner Is, some of which are still present! ( bathrooms, HVAC,doors,dumbwaiters)

More of us that were in the NE remember the well documented problems with the new Acelas also! ( I liked the Metroliners, especially the seats, myself!)

I never cared for the Amcan Is(especially the Airline style windows), the IIs were a big improvement except for the vestibules and the freezing up problems!! Horizons might have been mechanically sound, but no-one really likes riding in them!( the lighting is especially bad!)