Capitol - Pennsylvanian Connection?

[Rail Freak]

CL-PENN Connection, Pit to Philly, how reliable is it?

 

[the_traveler]

As reliable as can be on Amtrak.

If the CL is not too late, they usually hold the Pennsylvanian. (There's 2 hours between them.) If you are going to PHL and the CL is very late, they may have you stay on the CL to WAS and go to PHL on a Regional.

 

[acelafan]

Here's the connection history link from ASMAD.

Past 30 days the Cap missed the Pennsylvanian about 10% of the time.

http://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/connections.php?a_train_num=30&c_train_num=42&station=Pgh&date_start=07%2F24%2F2015&date_end=08%2F23%2F2015&df1=1&df2=1&df3=1&df4=1&df5=1&df6=1&df7=1&sort_dir=DESC&dfon=1

 

[Lonestar648]

when I was going to PHL and the CL from CHI was over 4 hours late I was rescheduled to stay on to WAS and a regional leaving about 60 minutes after arriving in WAS. FYI the CL would have to be over 3 hours late to miss 42.

 

[Rail Freak]

I'll be taking the CL to connect to the SM on my way home to Florida. I've never been on the Pennsy route & have never been inside 30th Street station!

 

[Lonestar648]

42 goes through the Allegheny Mountains, around the famous "Horseshoe Curve", across the Susquehanna River before Harrisburg. I traveled this route on the Broadway, Three Rivers, and Pennsy. 30th street is a big station, but all trains arrive and depart from the main waiting area.

 

[acelafan]

FYI the CL would have to be over 3 hours late to miss 42.

Mmmmm, 2 hours and 20 minutes is about the max lateness for #30 to reach #42.

 

[afigg]

when I was going to PHL and the CL from CHI was over 4 hours late I was rescheduled to stay on to WAS and a regional leaving about 60 minutes after arriving in WAS. FYI the CL would have to be over 3 hours late to miss 42.

CL #30 is scheduled to arrive at PGH at 5:05 AM. Pennsylvanian #42 is scheduled to depart at 7:30 AM, so the connection window is 2 hours and 25 minutes, but a little less than that. Expanding the Status Maps Archive Database to the past 3 months, the CL missed the connection 4 times out of 92 days.

According to previous discussions on this connection at PGH topic, the Pennsylvanian is not held at all for a late CL #30 because it is a state subsidized train and PennDOT doesn't want #42 to depart late. One of the side effects of states now subsidizing all routes of < 750 miles. The state DOT may not be interested in accommodating late LD trains.

 

[Rail Freak]

I guess if the #30 is late they'd put me in coach (if my sleeper was not available between PGH & WAS) for the rest of the trip to WAS, which I could handle.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I guess if the #30 is late they'd put me in coach (if my sleeper was not available between PGH & WAS) for the rest of the trip to WAS, which I could handle.

Its doubful that someone would book a room for the PGH-WAS leg of this Route, so chances are excellent you could stay in your room.and have Breakfast in the CCC since you're on an Award trip IINM?

 

[MikefromCrete]

Right, the state subsidized trains are designed to serve a certain market. The guys paying for it want their riders to have a good experience. Satisfying the 100 or so local riders is more important than the 10 or so transferring from an LD train. (I just made those rider figures up, but I bet they're close to what actually happens.) I know if I wanted to ride the Hiawatha to Milwaukee or go to St. Louis or Michigan points, I would really be mad if I had to wait an hour or two for an LD train to make its appearance in Chicago.

 

[fairviewroad]

Right, the state subsidized trains are designed to serve a certain market. The guys paying for it want their riders to have a good experience. Satisfying the 100 or so local riders is more important than the 10 or so transferring from an LD train. (I just made those rider figures up, but I bet they're close to what actually happens.) I know if I wanted to ride the Hiawatha to Milwaukee or go to St. Louis or Michigan points, I would really be mad if I had to wait an hour or two for an LD train to make its appearance in Chicago.

True, but there are multiple daily Hiawatha/Lincoln Service trains. Someone who misses the connection can often get the next train a few hours later. But if you're going from Chicago to, say, Altoona and miss the connection, you're stuck for 24 hours unless Amtrak decides to spring for a very expensive taxi ride.

 

[benjibear]

On 8/17 the CL was only 18 minutes behind the departing Pennsylvanian. I don't think anyone would scream that load waiting 18 minutes to depart. It may be an NS issue.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

I guess if the #30 is late they'd put me in coach (if my sleeper was not available between PGH & WAS) for the rest of the trip to WAS, which I could handle.

Its doubful that someone would book a room for the PGH-WAS leg of this Route, so chances are excellent you could stay in your room.and have Breakfast in the CCC since you're on an Award trip IINM?

I see plenty of people walking up to the headend at Pittsburgh when we're eastbound to DC.

I've debated on it myself a few times.

 

[the_traveler]

How about those people who live in Altoona (who last time I checked were PA residents and PA taxpayers) who just returned from a LD trip from DEN or LAX? :huh: I guess PA doesn't care about them either - because they're LD riders!

 

[keelhauled]

Or possibly (dare I say probably) because LD passengers are a fraction of short haul traffic both Amtrak and PennDoT consider it acceptable to bus them in order to give corridor passengers a timely train.

 

[fairviewroad]

I suspect the truth of the matter is more nuanced than "PennDOT won't hold 42 for a late Capitol." I suspect many of the same factors come into play as with connections elsewhere along the system. I'm sure if 50 people were connecting, and the Cap was scheduled to arrive 5 minutes after 42's departure, then 42 would wait. But if 5 people were connecting and the Cap was scheduled to arrive 30 minutes after 42's departure, then 42 would leave as scheduled.

The actual equation may be slanted more heavily in favor of 42 leaving than in the case other connections, but I have a hard time believing it's as strict as some are making it out to be. After all, 42 has some padding coming into HAR, so even a late-departing train from PIT could still run the corridor section of the route in a relatively timely manner. That said, Keystone Corridor passengers know to not rely on the eastbound Pensylvanian, compared to the rest of the schedule.

 

[jis]

PennDOT has been repeatedly told in many surveys by the primary riders of the Pennsylvanian that what they care about more is a corridor train that runs on a reliable schedule so that they can reliably get to their work or wherever they are going at a predictable time, rather than cater to connecting passengers from delayed LD trains and thus screw up the day for the regular riders. They still try to strike a bit of a balance, but they will go only so far. A corridor train becomes quite useless if its timeliness gets tied to that of an unreliable LD train.

I agree that there is not absolutely set rule and they try to balance all factors and come to a decision for each case.

BTW, this will become an issue of contention when there are connecting cars from the Cap to the Pennsy in the eastbound direction, as in whether Amtrak will need to have a supplementary agreement to handle an overly delayed train as a special move and keep adequate standby equipment handy etc. Trying to use corridor trains for through cars from LD trains does face this problem in many cases.

 

[fairviewroad]

The problem here is that the Pennsylvanian isn't really a true corridor train, nor is it really a LD train. The only section of it that maintains corridor characteristics is from Harrisburg eastward. West of Harrisburg it's simply a once-a-day train the connects into the national LD system. I can understand that in-state travelers still want an on-time train, but let's be honest, if time is critical, you probably aren't going to be riding the Pennsylvanian between PIT and PHL in the first place.

One solution in terms of standby equipment would be to base a few corridor cars in HAR to protect the Pennsylvanian's slot along the Keystone/NEC section of the run. These could be used to protect other Keystone departures, too. That way you wouldn't have to have a set of equipment orphaned in PIT.

 

[PRR 60]

PennDOT has been repeatedly told in many surveys by the primary riders of the Pennsylvanian that what they care about more is a corridor train that runs on a reliable schedule so that they can reliably get to their work or wherever they are going at a predictable time, rather than cater to connecting passengers from delayed LD trains and thus screw up the day for the regular riders. They still try to strike a bit of a balance, but they will go only so far. A corridor train becomes quite useless if its timeliness gets tied to that of an unreliable LD train.

I agree that there is not absolutely set rule and they try to balance all factors and come to a decision for each case.

BTW, this will become an issue of contention when there are connecting cars from the Cap to the Pennsy in the eastbound direction, as in whether Amtrak will need to have a supplementary agreement to handle an overly delayed train as a special move and keep adequate standby equipment handy etc. Trying to use corridor trains for through cars from LD trains does face this problem in many cases.

When (if?) Amtrak starts running through cars between the Pennsylvanian and the Capitol Limited, I'm willing to bet that PennDOT will push back with the argument that the Pennsylvanian is no longer train subject to state support. That the train is now New York - Chicago, with Amtrak dropping a couple of cars at Pittsburgh as an operational decision. They will say that PennDOT support for 42/43 should be now be zero. If that argument wins, then the cost for Amtrak to have cars pass from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Limited goes up by $3 million per year - the lost subsidy to Amtrak from PennDOT.

 

[jis]

OTOH, that could present the opportunity to explore a second Pennsy funded by PennDOT. There are always pluses and minuses to each of these possibilities.

Of course a relevant question would be can they get cost + $3 million in revenues out of this. Perhaps need to do more than one Sleeper.

 

[Bob Dylan]

If that happens Bill couldn't Amtrak just forget the #42/#43/#29.#30 thru cars in PGH and resume running a LD Train NYP-CHI called either the Broadway Ltd. or The Three Rivers?

 

[keelhauled]

But then they'd have to find another CSX/NS slot west of Pittsburgh, which would not be a speedy process.

 

[jis]

If that happens Bill couldn't Amtrak just forget the #42/#43/#29.#30 thru cars in PGH and resume running a LD Train NYP-CHI called either the Broadway Ltd. or The Three Rivers?

That's cost way more than $3 million since you'll need an additional set of T&E crew, additional slot and track access charges and on and on and on. The beauty of the through cars is that you need none of those. you just need OBS crew.

Remember when Amtrak started the WAS - CHI and NYP - CHI service ran as a single train west of variously at Philly or Harrisburg. That was also to save on a slot and T&E. One could almost say that that is what saved some resources to make the National Limited possible., which also operated as a single train west of Philly/Harrisburg while bifurcating in the east to serve WAS and NYP.

 

[Bob Dylan]

What about just going to single level equipment on the Cap ( when all the Viewliner IIs come on line) and do thru cars on the Broadway/Three Rivers from PGH-CHI? This frees up the Superliners for Western Service where needed!

This would make more seats and Sleepers available for CHI from NYP,PHL etc.and should provide a boost in revenue for Amtrak.

The Cap would be a Stub train between PGH and WAS with Biz Class/Coaches and Snack Car and run through Sleeper(s) and Coaches for CHI, instead of them running on the Penn out of NYP.

And if better calling times could be worked out with the Class Is, it should lead to a large increase in passenger travel and revenue between WAS and PGH!