Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[CSXfoamer1997]

The Miami - WPB service is temporary using four car trains. Their target is six cars initially for the Orlando service, eventually growing to eight cars.

I thought it was going to be 7 once the corridor is complete.

 

[jis]

The Miami - WPB service is temporary using four car trains. Their target is six cars initially for the Orlando service, eventually growing to eight cars.

I thought it was going to be 7 once the corridor is complete.

It is changeable easily and they will be tested for upto 8. What they will actually operate is a different matter which will be determined by demand. But it is true that the color coordinated sets will be 7 cars long initially.

 

[VentureForth]

That includes a dining car?

 

[jis]

That includes a dining car?

No Dining Car. First Class gets meal service at their seat. There is a Cafe/Lounge Facility in one of the car, for the whole train

 

[cirdan]

That includes a dining car?

No Dining Car. First Class gets meal service at their seat. There is a Cafe/Lounge Facility in one of the car, for the whole train

but only in the full build sets.Right?

The initial short sets are seating only.

Even if you serve meals at people's seats, you still need a small kitchenette area so you can prepare stuff (even if it's just preheating) and store it.

Or am I mistaken?

 

[jis]

The First Class Car has food prep area built into it, just like in the Acela First Class. The food delivered in First Class does not require the presence of the Cafe/Lounge Car.

I am not sure what Cafe facility is planned for Coach Class initially. Will know more about it in detail in a couple of months when we hold the FRPC Meeting hosted by Brightline.

 

[chrsjrcj]

There is a section for food and beverage carts in the end cars (both car 1 and car 4). I'm assuming the food is prepared at a commissary area at the West Palm Beach station (there is no commissary area at the RRF), where the carts will be loaded on to the train.

There is also a microwave in each end car.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

An interesting story regarding the Orlando International Airport station.

http://floridapolitics.com/archives/230723-orlando-building-train-station-not-sure-trains-will-arrive

 

[neroden]

In regards to Tampa-Orlando service, the I-4 median is vacant, clear, and ready for tracks and stations from Universal Studios Orlando to 34th St. in Tampa. There's probably lots of land speculation which could be done around there.

I don't remember where the HSR line was supposed to go east and west of there. The toll road median (417) in Orlando is also pretty empty, though, which is one way to get to the Orlando Airport.

So I hope AAF are keeping in touch with the state government and tollway authority. They may be able to make some kind of deal (land for trains)...

The ROW is being preserved. Beyond that nothing will happen until mid-twenties at the earliest, and it is also not clear if AAF will be involved in such, though they have aspirations of getting there some day, but not really soon. As I have mentioned before, a tentative ROW following 417 to I-4 (roughly) to get from the airport to the I-4 corridor has been discussed off and on, but that is about where things stand. Nothing concrete.

Good to know. Bluntly, it looks easy. The west end of the preserved right-of-way is not at a very good location for a Tampa station, but apart from that issue, I can't think of a simpler place to build a fully grade-separated line. I'm sure AAF is focused on getting to Orlando, but it just looks so simple to lay tracks down that median.

 

[jis]

I don't think they will do Tampa on their own without help in the form of at least significant public funding for the infrastructure. They need to get a few years of successful operation to Orlando and most likely progress made to JAX first.

 

[VentureForth]

Are there any graphical representations of how the Briteline track will enter MCO? http://allaboardflorida.com/stations/orlando still says construction into MCO will begin in 2017. They seem to be years off target...

 

[chrsjrcj]

I'm pretty sure the terminal that Brightline will stop at has already begun construction. Rail infrastructure won't start until phase 1 begins revenue service.

Also, quite sure that Brightline will enter the new South terminal from the north, going along the eastern boundary of the Nortb terminal.

 

[jis]

Are there any graphical representations of how the Briteline track will enter MCO? http://allaboardflorida.com/stations/orlando still says construction into MCO will begin in 2017. They seem to be years off target...

They always said that construction of Phase II will begin after Phase I service starts, which happens middle of the year. We will have to wait until then to see what is going to happen with Phase II construction, won't we?

I'm pretty sure the terminal that Brightline will stop at has already begun construction. Rail infrastructure won't start until phase 1 begins revenue service.

Yes construction of the station is well past the halfway mark and on airport property right of way is being graded.

Also, quite sure that Brightline will enter the new South terminal from the north, going along the eastern boundary of the Nortb terminal.

Yes. From the north. It goes past the North Terminal, ducks under the south connecting road to 417 and enters the station from the north.

The people mover connecting the North Terminal to the Multimodal Center and the South Terminal is also well advanced in its construction. meanwhile a ten gate South Terminal got funded so its construction is starting up.

Take a look at this post way up in this thread to find a Powerpoint presentation that contains a slide showing the lay of the land.

 

[cirdan]

Just supposing the worst happens and Phase 2 either never gets built or gets postponed to point in the distant future.

Is phase 1 sufficient as a self sustating operation? Obviously it's not going to break even as such but with all the real estate interests included, will it be rational? Or do the investors need phase 2 for this to make sense?

In other words, to me it seems that Phase 1 is just a glorified commuter operation. Will that still work?

 

[jis]

I have asked that question and the official answer from Brightline has always been that it is an irrelevant question since Phase II is going to be built irrespective of what happens with the bond situation.

Anything else beyond that would be idle speculation based on nothing on my part.

 

[A Voice]

I have asked that question and the official answer from Brightline has always been that it is an irrelevant question since Phase II is going to be built irrespective of what happens with the bond situation.

Anything else beyond that would be idle speculation based on nothing on my part.

Really, what else are they going to say? They can't really admit phase II may not happen without killing prospects for financing (which does appear to be a problem, regardless of what Brightline says publicly) and investment in the overall project. Notably, the Orlando Aviation Authority (responsible for the new airport station) has admitted the expected trains may never arrive.

It is indeed just speculation, but I don't really expect the new construction to Orlando to ever be completed. However, in fairness I didn't think the project would ever get this far, either. Maybe some sort of extension north to Cocoa and Jacksonville, because in theory that could be done with minimal investment (wouldn't be high speed), but again, just informed speculation.

 

[Anderson]

I've got to wonder what the numbers would look like with a Cocoa-Jacksonville extension but no Orlando extension. On the one hand there's a very good chance they could, if they wanted, milk Amtrak access, both to tracks and to stations, for a decent bit of cash (Amtrak estimated the net pax addition from an FEC operation on the Star to be about 100k; my best guess is that such a number would translate into $5-7m in revenue (though I don't know what the cost profiles would look like). I also can't say whether the Meteor would do better or worse. On the other hand, I also have to wonder about the financial profile of a 90-110 MPH train. Technically it wouldn't be HSR and they'd probably be stuck with a bus to Orlando.

 

[MikefromCrete]

The numbers won't be there for a Jacksonville-Miami service. The whole Brightline plan is designed to tap into the two largest markets in Florida. Having trains run up and down the coast won't provide enough revenue. Having to connect to a bus to get to Orlando won't attract anybody. If Brightline doesn't go to Orlando, it won't go anywhere.

 

[jis]

Yup, if they don't get to Orlando they will just abandon the whole thing and walk away, is my guess. Maybe they'll keep the WPB thing running for a bit. There will be no just Miami to Jacksonville thing run by them without government subsidy.

 

[neroden]

Looks to me like the only delays on the Palm Beach - Orlando construction are bogus NIMBY lawsuits.

Maybe someone can notify Trump of the government paperwork delays which are hindering private business construction.

Anyway, with the regulatory changes already made by *Obama*, Brightline should be able to construct and operate almost everything from WPB to Cocoa without asking anyone's permission, as long as they don't create new obstructions to waterways, don't have in-water work, and don't threaten endangered species. There's a new set of Categorical Exclusions for work on existing railroad rights-of-way. I think this can be done since all the rivers are small; it should be possible to build clear spans over them which don't even go into the riverbanks.

It might be politically necessary to separate the Cocoa extension from the Orlando Airport extension; once the Cocoa extension is a fait accompli, it's probable that the NIMBYs will give up when it comes to the airport extension.

 

[jis]

There is no NIMBY opposition to construction of the Cocoa - Orlando section. There are still some "who is going to pay for grade crossing improvements?" Issues in Brevard County ( that is between Micco and Cocoa) that will get resolved relatively easily when the time comes. The NIMBY opposition is mostly in Martin, St. Lucie and Indian River Counties with some spillover into South Brevard County - specifically Mucco, Barefoot Bay, Valkaria and Grant - all rural areas. And then there is the new State Senator from South Brevard to contend with - Debbie Mayfield. But eventually I think it will get done.

The bottom line is if it is built to Cocoa, building it to Orlando will face no opposition from anyone. Indeed, if it is even built upto Sebastian the rest will pretty much flow through relatively easily in spite of small NIMBY pockets.

 

[neroden]

Yes. From the north. It goes past the North Terminal, ducks under the south connecting road to 417 and enters the station from the north.

The people mover connecting the North Terminal to the Multimodal Center and the South Terminal is also well advanced in its construction. meanwhile a ten gate South Terminal got funded so its construction is starting up.

Take a look at this post way up in this thread to find a Powerpoint presentation that contains a slide showing the lay of the land.

Nice route for extending to Tampa as a single line (no reversal). Here's hoping they can get past the NIMBY explosion and finance it. A Tampa-Orlando-Miami run is an extremely sound route.

 

[neroden]

http://malled.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2016/11/29/all-aboard-federal-officials-move-to-end-lawsuit-over-tax-exempt-rail-bonds/

OK, from what I know about how the law works, DOT just blew away the major lawsuit against the bond certification. If DOT authorizes the second set of bonds (with the EIS now complete), the plaintiffs won't be able to run the same bogus lawsuit tactics.

The morons at Indian River and Martin Counties are still trying to fight this, but the fact is that the only argument they had was premised on the bonds being authorized before the EIS. With that gone, they have no argument. It's an open question whether the new Transportation Secretary will approve the bonds for Phase II, but it *does* seem like the sort of thing you'd *expect* her to approve based on her background.

One of the permit lawsuits (from Indian River) is down, as well:

http://malled.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2016/12/02/indian-river-county-drops-permit-challenge-for-all-aboards-brightline-project/

And the Indian River government seems to be giving up.

These were bogus lawsuits filed to attempt to delay the project. It looks like they're failing, thank goodness. I'm not sure how many more lawsuits there are left to knock down (Martin County water permit lawsuit looks like it's the last one), but the legal progress seems to be going well.

...and it looks like the recently elected Martin County Commissioners are sick of wasting money on frivolous lawsuits, even though they are officially "leaving All Aboard Florida out of that discussion".

http://www.tcpalm.com/story/opinion/columnists/rich-campbell/2016/12/02/rich-campbell-martin-county-commission-makes-180-degree-turn-warp-speed/94661308/

OK, so now, just line up the bond investors. Heck, I'd invest if I didn't have much better investment opportunities available this year.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Maybe someone can notify Trump of the government paperwork delays which are hindering private business construction.

This is not a political post, so both mods and members don't treat it as one.

The protections against action in our constitution, our laws, and our regulations are always a double edged sword so be careful what you wish for.

Donald Trump, like him or not, is a fast-change leader- that's probably the only thing both sides can agree on.

All of the perceived good things that Trump's supporters believe he will do for our country, those are going to be slowed, muddled, or stopped altogether by the slowing gum of that regulatory system. Whatever good he does or intends to do will be affected and slowed by it.

Flip side: All of the perceived bad things that Trumps detractors believe he will do for our country, those things are going to be slowed, muddled, or stopped altogether by the gum of that same regulatory system. Whatever bad he does or intends to do will be affected and slowed by it.

As you can see from my identically worded presentation I am not taking sides on our President at this time. I personally feel I should let him have the same 100 days as every other president to judge him (although I believe people should voice (and more so mount) all opposition to specific issues they have. He has been in office for 17 days. I am inclined to give him the the remaining 83 before taking an overall position.

Especially since, as far as I can tell, both sides of the Trump debate seem to be actually totally clueless as to the mans intentions. E.G. There are members on this board who support Trump because they feel certain his intention is to greatly improve transit, while others detest him because they feel certain his intent is to obliterate it.

I personally don't have a clue. And my experience is that this is the case either when the perpetuating subject is clueless- or has a carefully devised plan that he is hiding because no matter how good the plan may or may not be, somebody will object to it, and he wants to implement it before people figure out what it is. I favor the latter, for better or worse.

My main point is that we should be careful when we object to the gummy works of our government. For as many things that we want that it slows or spoils, it slows or spoils things we don't want.

Mods: if you think parts of my post are unjustified, feel free to delete anything you see as excessively political. But please leave the first five paragraphs and the one above this instruction. I think it is too important a point.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Good post Lion! I despise the guy and all he campaigned on, ( George Wallace and Nixon's playbook)but as you say the system moves slow (which is the genius of our founding fathers)so extremes usually don't prevail in Washington, in the long run the old Watergate saying "Follow the Money"and an even older one "Money talks,and BS walks!" will be the course of State.

President come and Presidents go, but the System is forever and let's not forget that in Sodom on the Potomac the 2018 and 2020 Elections are already underway!