cpotisch
Engineer
If they’re cheap and mediocre they must be.Are they fresh and contemporary?
Amtrak's New "Fresh Choices" Dining on CL & LSL
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Leaving Syracuse. Just received Amtrak e-mail with advisory (warning) that my upcoming trips on the LSL and CL will include "Contemporary Dining" with a link to the April 18th announcement. Still no specifics. I shall soon see.
cpotisch
Engineer
Just received an e-mail? Like today? How hard is it to send this stuff to passengers in a timely manner? Why couldn't they have sent passengers this stuff on April 18th?
Whatever be the case, at 1:20 PM tomorrow, the first "fresh choices" train will leave the station, so fingers crossed.
The public announcement was made and put online, but at that point I didn't have my reservations, really can't fault them on that point. I do agree that it might have been nice to send the reminder a bit sooner, although there is an advisory given when booking. The lack of real information is more annoying. No menus. We all know tomorrow's food is already being staged.
Maybe their strategy is to wait til last minute to keep people from cancelling.......
cpotisch
Engineer
If that is their strategy, I think it's a pretty dumb one. Keeping people out of the loop rarely makes them feel better, since they tend to just get that much more anxious. I someone is booked for a 20 hour trip, and knows nothing other than that they'll be served some limit selection of cold food, they have pretty much no idea "what they're up against", and how to prepare for the trip. With the menu online, at least people know what to expect and if they can cope with it. If they have nothing to go on, and the person might have to put up with a much worse selection than will actually be offered, it's that much more likely that they cancel.
Thirdrail7
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Tibike,
I have a great deal of respect for your posts. However, I can not agree with you on this one. Please think about it:
Hmmmm....I have a meeting Do I take 16 hour train ride, that might turn out to be 20 hours by the time I get to Michigan or a 6 hour plane ride where I get aggressively frisked?
The plane is cheaper....but wait.....the Amtrak has a Chilled Steak Salad and I can wake up to a yogurt!!!
SOLD!!!!
However, to mask cafe car offerings in buzzwords and foist it upon your high paying passengers as if they don't know the difference is insulting and is a load of hooey. You are charging the same fare and maybe more for food that was could easily be available in the cafe car.
If you've fallen for it, you're either the kind of passenger that Amtrak wants (we're as late as ever, we've raised the prices, slashed amenities, eliminated discounts, imposed refund fees on things we overcharged them on and got caught and they STILL keep riding..in record numbers, so why not give them yogurt and a Kind Bar, ) or you work for Amtrak marketing.
If it is the latter, perhaps you can pitch "closing stations encourages self-sufficiency and reduces our carbon footprint " or "reducing staff means you'll travel lighter...which is perfect for "business traveler" that like to arrive in a major city 5 hours late!"
I have a great deal of respect for your posts. However, I can not agree with you on this one. Please think about it:
Do you honestly think think that someone that has pretty much slashed amenities and services on the LD front really is trying to bring "business travelers" to trains with substandard performances? It couldn't be more obvious as to why these trains were selected: They serve very few meals.
Once again, this is something that could have been handled without using yogurt as a main course. You could always ask for the food to be delivered to your room. Just as you can now. Additionally, I'm still trying to picture this " younger business traveler" boarding trains that are notoriously late. Do you really think someone is going to look and say:
Hmmmm....I have a meeting Do I take 16 hour train ride, that might turn out to be 20 hours by the time I get to Michigan or a 6 hour plane ride where I get aggressively frisked?
The plane is cheaper....but wait.....the Amtrak has a Chilled Steak Salad and I can wake up to a yogurt!!!
SOLD!!!!
While some may consider the menu a change for the better, you can not seriously think of this as an upgrade. Fresh and Contemporary "Meals" of this nature could have been made available in the cafe car. It already carries yogurts, sandwiches and wraps and they used to carry a salads...and that is my problem. If you want to get rid of the service, then get rid of the service. Follow the example that was set by the Star. Admit you're eliminating a feature to save money and lower the prices accordingly!!
However, to mask cafe car offerings in buzzwords and foist it upon your high paying passengers as if they don't know the difference is insulting and is a load of hooey. You are charging the same fare and maybe more for food that was could easily be available in the cafe car.
If you've fallen for it, you're either the kind of passenger that Amtrak wants (we're as late as ever, we've raised the prices, slashed amenities, eliminated discounts, imposed refund fees on things we overcharged them on and got caught and they STILL keep riding..in record numbers, so why not give them yogurt and a Kind Bar, ) or you work for Amtrak marketing.
If it is the latter, perhaps you can pitch "closing stations encourages self-sufficiency and reduces our carbon footprint " or "reducing staff means you'll travel lighter...which is perfect for "business traveler" that like to arrive in a major city 5 hours late!"
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They have to train the crew to throw it at you. That should take 2 minutes. Wait until some attendant decides that unlimited soft drinks means two per person or you find that there is only one choice because they only loaded two of any of the others.
Going to Denver in July. First airline trip in years and first class was cheaper than a sleeper. It's United so we'll probably be beaten up but in first class, they use white gloves to do it.
Have to get used to a new travel experience. Clean restrooms. Unsurly crew. No waiting on freights.Ugh! Whatwill I do?
MikefromCrete
Engineer
Don't be expecting any unsurly crew. Some of those flight attendants can be just as bad anything you might run into on Amtrak. Clean restrooms aren't a given either. But no freights.
D minus one. The notification of "Contemporary Dining Options" is gone from my reservation. No menu, no clues. Don't tell the passengers anything so they can make alternate arrangements. It's a long way to DC on just yogurt, bread, and a couple of breakfast bars. Especially if the CL is late.
jis
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There is always the Cafe Car [emoji12]
ParanoidAndroid
OBS Chief
Let's see if we can get this to a thousand posts before #449 leaves Boston tomorrow.
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United, we always called them the "Unfriendly Sky's". I remember a flight from Chicago to San Diego when about 15 of us flew together. The Drill Sargent told us Restrooms were "Off Limits" until after the plane was at cruise altitude and the pilot signaled with the seat belt light. Electronic would be confiscated if used prior to the approved time. She actually took several phones and a couple laptops during the flight when the seat belt light came on, telling the passengers they could have them back after everyone had gotten off the plane. I have had more friendly Attendants on Delta than other airlines. Also learned that AA executives only fly first class when we got booted from our upgraded seats back to the only remaining seats.
Enjoy your flight. Hope it is a good one.
Enjoy your flight. Hope it is a good one.
TiBike
OBS Chief
If you say the primary reason for selecting these trains is that they serve very few meals anyway, then I accept that – I'm just speculating. I'm not saying that the new meal service is sufficient to attract business people. A better way to put it is that it won't repel them. As described, it's very similar to the "grab and go" food that's common in airports, both in terms of the menu and the way it's to be presented.
What will repel business travellers is inconsistent service and poorly prepared and presented food, offered in an unfamiliar environment that doesn't allow them to maximise their most valuable resource: time. It's true that there are "take out" options in a traditional diner, but it requires time and effort to figure that out.
I will admit to some bias. I had fruit and yogurt for breakfast and a chicken salad for dinner the past three days. My diet may seem boring to some, but I don't think it's unusual. It's certainly consistent with what you'd find in a Silicon Valley company cafeteria, where the food is free (or nearly so) and intended as a recruitment and retention tool.
I wasn't commenting on Amtrak's marketing skills or its prose. I also don't pay much attention to it. Nor do I think the vast majority of Amtrak passengers will give it much thought, if they see it in the first place. Yes, it's insulting, and the whole episode could have been handled much better. But unless you have an atypical interest in what Amtrak does – i.e. work for Amtrak and/or hang out on this board – the marketing elements are just background noise. That's not an excuse for poor workmanship, though – that offends me.
You are completely right to put food service, and my speculation regarding it, into proper perspective. To attract 21st century travellers (as opposed to 19th and 20th century travellers who seem to have wandered into this one
Amtrak needs to offer "safe, on time, clean cars, friendly service and great customer-facing technology". I gotta give credit where credit is due: whether or not he had help writing it, Anderson succinctly and precisely described what Amtrak's priorities must be, in the correct order.
So yes, at a minimum, the trains have to be safe and on time. Without that, none of this matters. Unsafe or late trains are unacceptable to business travellers, and should be to anyone else. Those are binary criteria. Clean and friendly are more subjective criteria, but I will venture to say that there is a direct relationship between a passenger's love of rail travel and his or her's tolerance for dirty trains and indifferent service. The standard must be raised significantly if Amtrak hopes to change passenger counts and demographics.
Passengers don't notice "great customer facing technology" unless it's not there – consumer-facing businesses, particularly service business, have been radically changed by digital technology, in all its forms, over the past 25 years. Old tech is perceived as inferior tech, and "no tech" is just bizarre.
Another thing that's changed over the past 25 years is consumers' relationship to brands. Increasingly, brands are used to define, and not simply express, a person's self identity. People will adopt brands that reinforce their self image, and avoid brands that clash with it. Self image is not the same as personal tastes. Even if people eat boiled potatoes, charred steaks and deep fried ice cream for three meals a day, they may think of themselves as the sort that lives a healthy, low environmental impact lifestyle. Being seen among the salads reinforces that self image.
(So do bike racks, by the way. If you ever get out this way, take a look at the Google, Facebook et al employee buses – they all have bike racks on the back, but are virtually never used. You also see free Google bikes all over the campus, but few people riding them. But everyone feels good about it).
For what it's worth, I do think that if Amtrak cuts amenities, raises prices and still sees increasing passenger numbers, it's doing something right. But food is a side issue. If Amtrak wants to attract more and better paying customers, it first needs to run safe, on time trains. Without that, nothing else matters.
What will repel business travellers is inconsistent service and poorly prepared and presented food, offered in an unfamiliar environment that doesn't allow them to maximise their most valuable resource: time. It's true that there are "take out" options in a traditional diner, but it requires time and effort to figure that out.
I will admit to some bias. I had fruit and yogurt for breakfast and a chicken salad for dinner the past three days. My diet may seem boring to some, but I don't think it's unusual. It's certainly consistent with what you'd find in a Silicon Valley company cafeteria, where the food is free (or nearly so) and intended as a recruitment and retention tool.
I wasn't commenting on Amtrak's marketing skills or its prose. I also don't pay much attention to it. Nor do I think the vast majority of Amtrak passengers will give it much thought, if they see it in the first place. Yes, it's insulting, and the whole episode could have been handled much better. But unless you have an atypical interest in what Amtrak does – i.e. work for Amtrak and/or hang out on this board – the marketing elements are just background noise. That's not an excuse for poor workmanship, though – that offends me.
You are completely right to put food service, and my speculation regarding it, into proper perspective. To attract 21st century travellers (as opposed to 19th and 20th century travellers who seem to have wandered into this one
Amtrak needs to offer "safe, on time, clean cars, friendly service and great customer-facing technology". I gotta give credit where credit is due: whether or not he had help writing it, Anderson succinctly and precisely described what Amtrak's priorities must be, in the correct order.So yes, at a minimum, the trains have to be safe and on time. Without that, none of this matters. Unsafe or late trains are unacceptable to business travellers, and should be to anyone else. Those are binary criteria. Clean and friendly are more subjective criteria, but I will venture to say that there is a direct relationship between a passenger's love of rail travel and his or her's tolerance for dirty trains and indifferent service. The standard must be raised significantly if Amtrak hopes to change passenger counts and demographics.
Passengers don't notice "great customer facing technology" unless it's not there – consumer-facing businesses, particularly service business, have been radically changed by digital technology, in all its forms, over the past 25 years. Old tech is perceived as inferior tech, and "no tech" is just bizarre.
Another thing that's changed over the past 25 years is consumers' relationship to brands. Increasingly, brands are used to define, and not simply express, a person's self identity. People will adopt brands that reinforce their self image, and avoid brands that clash with it. Self image is not the same as personal tastes. Even if people eat boiled potatoes, charred steaks and deep fried ice cream for three meals a day, they may think of themselves as the sort that lives a healthy, low environmental impact lifestyle. Being seen among the salads reinforces that self image.
(So do bike racks, by the way. If you ever get out this way, take a look at the Google, Facebook et al employee buses – they all have bike racks on the back, but are virtually never used. You also see free Google bikes all over the campus, but few people riding them. But everyone feels good about it).
For what it's worth, I do think that if Amtrak cuts amenities, raises prices and still sees increasing passenger numbers, it's doing something right. But food is a side issue. If Amtrak wants to attract more and better paying customers, it first needs to run safe, on time trains. Without that, nothing else matters.
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Keep in mind that this putative business traveler probably has PreChek, so the aggressive frisking is generally not an issue.
(One of my standard techniques when flying over a meal time is to purchase a meal to go at an airport restaurant (most major(ish) airports have a decent selection), carry it on board, and eat it with my complimentary beverage. I think I'd find this preferable to any of the options Amtrak described. Unfortunately, except for the eastbound CL, this technique would result in my eating cold food, as there are several hours between boarding and mealtime.)
cpotisch
Engineer
You'd be surprised at some of the offerings in Silicon Valley cafeterias and lunch rooms. Google offers absolutely amazing food in their cafeterias (my dad can attest to that ever since he had lunch with a friend there). Good, complimentary meals for workers boosts morale and productivity. It's good for the workers and for the companies. So I can guarantee that "contemporary dining" is not going to be a big step up from what big tech companies offer their employees.
TiBike
OBS Chief
It's not a step up, by any means. But it wouldn't look out of place in the Google cafeteria. Typical Amtrak diner food would, though, both in terms of raw materials and quality of preparation and presentation.
Just got an email from Amtrak informing me of the food changes. Still no menu, link goes to the original press release on Amtrak's website.
My second one. It would be nice to see a photo of the choices.
But I still love the spin on this. Like we are getting a bonus or something.
Good food service does improve morale and retention. More common than complimentary is a subsidized food service, the tax consequences of complimentary can get dicey. Many large companies in Manhattan have employee food services where the quality is good and the prices reasonable. Aramark, the Amtrak commissary operator is a major player in corporate food services. I also had some bond trader and investment banking clients that actually employed private chefs to keep there big producers in the building as much as possible - long lunches = lost revenue. I used to schedule customer meetings at those sites for late morning so they would end around lunch time (so as long as your here, why don't you join us for lunch...)
I just received probably the same email. Although I have several trips in June, I will not be traveling on the Capitol Limited until July.
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When I traveled Amtrak LD almost weekly for business, I trusted Amtrak to be safe, but OTP was very important. I generally worked on my laptop most of each trip, except making phone calls at longer stops where coverage was good. (note: I started riding Amtrak for business in the 80's, then when projects were mostly NE based for many years, I traveled 80% by Amtrak) The amenities were attractive and helped justify taking the train. My sales guys were too hyper to sir on a train, they needed to be in front of customers, so no amenities would not have attracted them. Having a bedroom where several of us could work, eating together, shower and be ready was big for my team. We became very efficient in time management because we valued the little time we had a home with our families. Safety, OTP, Clean, mechanics working, amenities, good food were some of the criteria that attracted us. On the other side, no security lines, no lost time flying when couldn't work, no grab and go hot dogs or pizzas, no bag issues, no middle seats, etc.
My trip is in mid-July. Already have a contingency plan in place. Have a long layover, there's a Giordano's in walking distance.
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Menu is back up on the website. Same as was previously posted.
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chrsjrcj
OBS Chief
Now listed as "Lake Shore Limited/Capitol Limited Sleeping Car Menu" on the individual train's web page. Coach passengers be damned!
ETA: Just noticed the email to the "VP of Customer Service" (if such a position even exists) has been removed.
ETA: Just noticed the email to the "VP of Customer Service" (if such a position even exists) has been removed.
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