No more charters & special moves: 3/28/18 Memo fr Anderson

[Thirdrail7]

So add the [Case by Case review] part to the above expanded [How it gets done]. The question become when does Amtrak determines the [Case by Case Review] part. The day before or within 7 days of the initial application. Makes a small difference....

That, as always will vary on a case by case basis. It is easier to determine if you're dealing with your own territory (such as sports team specials on the NEC.) However, what if multiple hosts are involved? Even if Amtrak is inclined to operate the extra, you still have to wait for every facility and host involved to say "yea" or "nay". Unless something has changed, CSX will contact EVERY Superintendent of EVERY subdivision the train will traverse and get approval. All it takes is for one of them to say " I can't handle it" for the request to be turned down.

However, it takes time which is why it can literally take weeks (and in some cases months) to work out this process, particularly since the railroads change every day. Does anyone think that CSX or NS for that matter wants an extra floating around ALX right now?

That's why your trip can be cancelled at a moments notice and that is why sometimes approval can come at the last minute.

 

[CHvision]

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/06/15-amtrak-rule-would-end-use-of-private-car-observation-platforms

More to what's going on

 

[Seaboard92]

That's our punishment for the NYC 3 having the VP of Metro North, General manager of the providence and Worcester, a young kid who just bought an SPV, and I forget the last person riding the platform on a regional between New Haven and New York.

This is just another standard over reaction by Gardner and Anderson. This rule is only proposed right now so hopefully RPCA and AAPRCO can get it struck down. I honestly don't see that happening because neither man is known to back down.

For years there has been an unwritten rule that states you can not ride on an open platform, or open vestibule on the platform on the NEC. The problem though with unwritten rules is not everyone knows about them, and they really aren't the most effective.

The solution I think we should do is codify the rule on the NEC and leave the national network stuff alone. But that's common sense so that will not happen.

It should be noted that the owner of the Portland should know the unwritten rule and this was his last trip before retirement (as many owners are giving up their small businesses thanks to Gardner and his misinformation to Anderson) so he might have just said. "Well if I retire they can't really punish me and just did it anyway." But I don't see that happening.

I can't wait for the punishment from the billboards at the puppet masters Building in Philly. That should be most interesting.

Some of us have found an interesting way to retaliate against this rule to prove Anderson and Gardner are a bunch of hypocrites on a bunch of their new rules. And I can't wait to see this project come to fruition. But that's all I can say as one of the advisors on the project. But at least it used my degree.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

It's 2018. Im surprissd open air platforms have been allowed to be occupied on the mainline at all in recent years.

And not just amtrak and the mainline rules. Im surprised any private car insurrance covers it.

 

[Seaboard92]

It's 2018. Im surprissd open air platforms have been allowed to be occupied on the mainline at all in recent years.

And not just amtrak and the mainline rules. Im surprised any private car insurrance covers it.

In the last fifty years I can only think of two incidents involving an open platform.
The first one being on the PRR 120 back in the late 70s early 80s where a drunk passenger climbed up from the platform onto the roof of the car and contacted the catenary. The second being someone who was riding an open platform when T was running open end first on an AAPRCO special. And that person was hit in the head by a rock in an area known for trains getting rocked.

Other then that open vestibules and platform riding are fairly safe. And there haven't been any major incidents involving them. Even till the late 60s it was possible to ride an open platform on the Wabash Cannon Ball as it was regularly assigned.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I didn't say it was unsafe... I said im surprised it's been allowed both by the railroads and by the private cars insurrance.

I've ridden open vestibules and open platforms on the mainline... It is fun, im not arguing that. Ha. Although even a light rain gets painful at 79 mph as you know im sure!

 

[Seaboard92]

I didn't say it was unsafe... I said im surprised it's been allowed both by the railroads and by the private cars insurrance.

I've ridden open vestibules and open platforms on the mainline... It is fun, im not arguing that. Ha. Although even a light rain gets painful at 79 mph as you know im sure!

Wait till you do it in a pounding super cell thunderstorm at night at 80 mph with a steam locomotive pulling you. Even with my hard hat on, and safety glasses on it was painful as come be. But it's probably one of my most cherished memories.

We were deadheading forty miles from Joliet going at track speed with 765 and twelve cars. I remember watching the Mars light lighting up the sheets of rain. It was special. Just wow.

 

[Bob Dylan]

It may have been exciting but it sounds unsafe,uncomfortable and actually sort of dumb!( I'm old enough to have gotten to ride in lots of open vestibles and platforms but not in bad weather)

 

[Seaboard92]

It may have been exciting but it sounds unsafe,uncomfortable and actually sort of dumb!( I'm old enough to have gotten to ride in lots of open vestibles and platforms but not in bad weather)

We were all part of the crew though we wouldn't have let passengers do it. Crew life is the best life. My partner for that trip who is a magazine reporter in his actual day to day life sat in the front of the dome. The hardened railroaders were all out there.

 

[railiner]

It may have been exciting but it sounds unsafe,uncomfortable and actually sort of dumb!( I'm old enough to have gotten to ride in lots of open vestibles and platforms but not in bad weather)

We were all part of the crew though we wouldn't have let passengers do it. Crew life is the best life. My partner for that trip who is a magazine reporter in his actual day to day life sat in the front of the dome. The hardened railroaders were all out there.

Next to riding in a cab, I'll take the front seat in a short dome over any other seat on a train, including an open rear platform....

 

[zephyr17]

It may have been exciting but it sounds unsafe,uncomfortable and actually sort of dumb!( I'm old enough to have gotten to ride in lots of open vestibles and platforms but not in bad weather)

We were all part of the crew though we wouldn't have let passengers do it. Crew life is the best life. My partner for that trip who is a magazine reporter in his actual day to day life sat in the front of the dome. The hardened railroaders were all out there.

Next to riding in a cab, I'll take the front seat in a short dome over any other seat on a train, including an open rear platform....

Me too.

 

[neroden]

Open platforms are about as safe as it gets, for an interesting reason: they *look* potentially unsafe. Therefore people are actually careful when they're on them.

It's things which *look* safe -- which look safe enough for people to start being careless -- which are dangerous.

 

[Seaboard92]

Open platforms are about as safe as it gets, for an interesting reason: they *look* potentially unsafe. Therefore people are actually careful when they're on them.

It's things which *look* safe -- which look safe enough for people to start being careless -- which are dangerous.

And don't forget in a lot of cases the platforms are under the watchful eye of staff almost constantly. And I will speak just for myself but I will not allow children unattended, or anyone under the influence of any substance out onto the platform.



This is the picture of the offending event that caused this new ruling. What should be noted one of those is a Vice President at Metro North the track owner in the photo, another is a marketing manager, and operations manager from the Providence and Worcester which has trackage rights at this location.

 

[Thirdrail7]

The NJ Chamber Of Commerce is operating. I'm not exactly surprised since this is a political train.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

The NJ Chamber Of Commerce is operating. I'm not exactly surprised since this is a political train.

If I have this right, this is the biggest NJ schmooze event of the year--they hop on the train, have a great time, and end up in Washington to promote NJ's interests. Even political foes seem to turn into best buddies on the train!

 

[Seaboard92]

New River Train will not be running unless the organization can find 380k. So while Anderson and Gardner can cozy up to politicians. They can't cozy up to small businesses.

Nor do they care about all of us who are unemployed because of their actions. And we're the ones who are successful in getting multiple first time riders on board. Unlike a political train on the corridor where they likely use it already.

 

[neroden]

Amtrak OIG says that Amtrak doesn't have a clue how much it costs to operate private cars.

https://amtrakoig.gov/report-records/audit-reports/train-operations-opportunities-exist-improve-private-railcar

 AARPCO responds saying that since Amtrak has no clue how much it costs, Amtrak is probably overcharging. (I've lost the link.)

Now, when will the OIG notice that Amtrak has no idea how much it costs to operate ANY of its routes (as documented in the RPA White Paper)?

https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/releases/amtraks-route-accounting-fatally-flawed-misleading-wrong/

I went ahead and filed a Waste, Abuse, and Fraud tip with the OIG.  If they can investigate private varnish accounting, they can investigate route accounting.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Nor do they care about all of us who are unemployed because of their actions. And we're the ones who are successful in getting multiple first time riders on board. Unlike a political train on the corridor where they likely use it already.

You are correct, I highly doubt that Anderson cares that you are no longer getting paid to play train on his railroad. 

Now what Amtrak SHOULD be doing is offering their own version of Private Car Service.

 

[me_little_me]

You are correct, I highly doubt that Anderson cares that you are no longer getting paid to play train on his railroad. 

Now what Amtrak SHOULD be doing is offering their own version of Private Car Service.

They have neither the brains nor the foresight.Even VIA has a Prestige Class on the Canadian.

 

[cpotisch]

Nor do they care about all of us who are unemployed because of their actions. And we're the ones who are successful in getting multiple first time riders on board. Unlike a political train on the corridor where they likely use it already.

You are correct, I highly doubt that Anderson cares that you are no longer getting paid to play train on his railroad. 

There is quite a bit more to it than that. Not only do PVs bring in revenue for Amtrak, but in many cases they can serve to introduce passengers to train travel and Amtrak's routes. The way you're talking about is almost as if it's just a bunch of random train cars hitching a ride for free, which it really isn't. There is such a thing as a mutually beneficial deal.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

There is quite a bit more to it than that. Not only do PVs bring in revenue for Amtrak, but in many cases they can serve to introduce passengers to train travel and Amtrak's routes. The way you're talking about is almost as if it's just a bunch of random train cars hitching a ride for free, which it really isn't. There is such a thing as a mutually beneficial deal.

I wasn't referencing if PV's do or do not bring in revenue for Amtrak. I've ridden PV's... I get it. 

But Amtrak still takes private cars on routes that it makes sense for them operationally. So they are still making money with private cars (in theory). 

But what annoys me is all the railfans whining because they can't piggy-back on Amtrak's insurance anymore. That was a pretty strange loop hole from the start, and I'm really surprised it lasted as long as it did. 

Yes... if you want to run a passenger train on a mainline railroad in the USA you'll have to pay for the insurance. It's not a right to be able to use Amtrak's insurance, that's not why they exist.

 

[cpotisch]

I wasn't referencing if PV's do or do not bring in revenue for Amtrak. I've ridden PV's... I get it. 

But Amtrak still takes private cars on routes that it makes sense for them operationally. So they are still making money with private cars (in theory). 

But what annoys me is all the railfans whining because they can't piggy-back on Amtrak's insurance anymore. That was a pretty strange loop hole from the start, and I'm really surprised it lasted as long as it did. 

Yes... if you want to run a passenger train on a mainline railroad in the USA you'll have to pay for the insurance. It's not a right to be able to use Amtrak's insurance, that's not why they exist.

I'm not saying that it's a bad idea for Amtrak to have some kind of special especially luxurious service à la PV. What I am saying is that it isn't just Jon "No longer getting paid to play train on his railroad."  Do you dispute this point?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

You are trying to make my earlier post more broad than it was meant to be.  I quoted  Seaboard saying "Nor do they care about all of us who are unemployed because of their actions. And we're the ones who are successful in getting multiple first time riders on board. Unlike a political train on the corridor where they likely use it already." 

That's the only thing I was commenting on. I thought it was silly that anyone at Amtrak would care if Private Operators (or those who work for them) are out of a job. That's irrelevant to Amtrak's business. 

 

[Thirdrail7]

Now what Amtrak SHOULD be doing is offering their own version of Private Car Service.

They have neither the brains nor the foresight.Even VIA has a Prestige Class on the Canadian.

Yes...I can't imagine anything that would make Congress happier: Amtrak operating their own brand of private cars on the taxpayer's dime.

Yeah.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Yes...I can't imagine anything that would make Congress happier: Amtrak operating their own brand of private cars on the taxpayer's dime.

Yeah.

Well.. they already operate 1 that is 100% on the taxpayers dime. At least these would be partially paid for by the passengers! 

But yes, you are correct.. politically it really wouldn't work.  And even if it could work politically, I'm not sure Amtrak knows how to provide a truly first class product consistently.