No more charters & special moves: 3/28/18 Memo fr Anderson

[Thirdrail7]

There should be an affordable way to move private passenger cars over America's railroad infrustructure. If Amtrak was providing that, fine. But if Amtrak doesn't provide it I think someone should.

I've always believe Amtrak continues to exist to shield operators from liability that others can't afford. No other private railroad REALLY wants to deal with the liability issues that arise from accidents and incidents. If you notice, the companies that typically take on passenger operations are a multi-layered consortium of companies that have deep financial reserves. These reserves are typically shielded but they exist.

it is no wonder that private car operators would like to latch on to Amtrak. Do you think CSX will give them the same deal? I remember NJT wanted to explore operations to Allentown or somewhere deep into NS. I'm paraphrasing the story, but NS basically told them "We welcome the thought, however don't count on the Amtrak formula. You will pay and you will be responsible for everything and anything that happens to your train and our property." The one quote I remember is "Don't assume our assets are readily available or come for free."

After that, NJT didn't even operate the inspection train!

 

[cpotisch]

The one quote I remember is "Don't assume our assets are readily available or come for free."

That's borderline ominous! The Class Is never fail to surprise me at how hard they work to be for all the passenger operators.

 

[Seaboard92]

Now here's the difference between Germany and the United States for charters. And I bring this up because I'm putting together a charter in Germany this December and now have first hand knowledge of both countries.

Germany

Step 1: send the railroad the time, date, desired route, amount of passengers, and type of locomotive.

Step 2: if they can make it happen Deutsche Bahn sends out a binding contract. With penalties both for the operator and Deutsche Bahn if the train doesn't run.

Step 3: Market the trip.

Step 4: operate the trip.

United States

Step 1: send your proposal of a trip in. Include the same basic information to Amtrak. You may or may not get a response on it.

Step 2: if it's doable you receive preliminary approval. Meaning you can market it but Amtrak hasn't set up the contract yet. With a preliminary price.

Step 3:market the trip

Step 4: usually a week out sometimes even on the day of. A final quote (usually higher) and the actual contract.

Step 5: operate the train.

As you can see the German Deutsche Bahn is far better to operate a charter on because they stick to the initial price, and contract to run before a week out. It's a much less stressful situation for operators.

Also of note is the fact Deutsche Bahn operates over 24,000 passenger trains a day with over 80 percent of them being on time within five minutes. And on some days they will have up to twenty plus charter steam trains, and other trains plying their 20,000 ish miles of track.

 

[jis]

What is the amount of German Federal and State financial support that DB gets? AFAIK the LD network has to pretty much cover its costs, but for short/medium distance the subsidy leve is something like 23% to 24%

What is their staffing level? How easy or difficult is it for them to find spare staff? How much equipment do they have? How much from that pool are they easily able to spare?

It really is an Apples to Hippopotamus comparison.

 

[seat38a]

Oh Seaboard92, I really hope Amtrak changes their mind on PV's. The thought of you going into teaching high school as you stated previously you would do if your employment in the PV market ends, scares the kaka out of me.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

In Europe you can just hire yourself a fleet of railcars.

https://www.euro-express.eu/

No apples here. Just free market at work.

 

[Seaboard92]

I think you each missed the point I was after. The point I was getting at was Amtrak sometimes won't issue a contract till the week prior, or even day of. While Deutsche Bahn issues one immediately upon the first approval.

And mostly the charters have to price a lot higher due to an unknown raise we might get on the final contract.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Amtrak doesn't have enough money to commit to a contract more than a week out. - AU

 

[jis]

No. Amtrak is unpredictable incompetent in many things it does. One can guess that since it does not view Charter Trains as one of its core functions it is particularly more incompetent. I suspect (and I could be wrong) that it has little to do with money overall, but a lot to do with choices made in using the money that they have, for various purposes. It still has very little to do with what DB, which operates in a completely different legal, social and financial environment, is able to do or not. Amtrak, America and its political, social and legal environment stands all by itself in its own glory.

 

[NorthShore]

When I get rich and have a PV with an open porch, I'm putting it on the front of the train open porch first.

I'll get a toy control stand and pretend I'm the engineer.

Just have to watch out for those grade crossings.

I decided a couple years ago that when I grow up, instead of buying a house, I'll just buy an old dining car and sleeper instead.

You really just need one car to make a decent little house. Three bedrooms the size of a VIA prestige room and then a open plan lounge.

That and land....or a track to keep it on.

 

[NorthShore]

Go for broke. Get one of the HiLiners (ex-Santa Fe El Cap) cars, and rearrange the furnishing in it - Kitchen, laundry etc, downstairs, and Bedroom, Drawing Room, Dining Room upstairs

I once considered buying a Metra Bi-Level and retrofitting it as a home, complete with look over balcony into the living room.

 

[NorthShore]

No. Amtrak is unpredictable incompetent in many things it does. One can guess that since it does not view Charter Trains as one of its core functions it is particularly more incompetent. I suspect (and I could be wrong) that it has little to do with money overall, but a lot to do with choices made in using the money that they have, for various purposes. It still has very little to do with what DB, which operates in a completely different legal, social and financial environment, is able to do or not. Amtrak, America and its political, social and legal environment stands all by itself in its own glory.

I nominate Seaboard to hold a position at Amtrak overseeing charter trips.

 

[CHvision]

If this is suitable for this thread: Cedar Rapids and the Super Dome will be on the Empire Builder on the 20th.

 

[cirdan]

Now here's the difference between Germany and the United States for charters. And I bring this up because I'm putting together a charter in Germany this December and now have first hand knowledge of both countries.

Germany

Step 1: send the railroad the time, date, desired route, amount of passengers, and type of locomotive.

Step 2: if they can make it happen Deutsche Bahn sends out a binding contract. With penalties both for the operator and Deutsche Bahn if the train doesn't run.

Step 3: Market the trip.

Step 4: operate the trip.

United States

Step 1: send your proposal of a trip in. Include the same basic information to Amtrak. You may or may not get a response on it.

Step 2: if it's doable you receive preliminary approval. Meaning you can market it but Amtrak hasn't set up the contract yet. With a preliminary price.

Step 3:market the trip

Step 4: usually a week out sometimes even on the day of. A final quote (usually higher) and the actual contract.

Step 5: operate the train.

As you can see the German Deutsche Bahn is far better to operate a charter on because they stick to the initial price, and contract to run before a week out. It's a much less stressful situation for operators.

Also of note is the fact Deutsche Bahn operates over 24,000 passenger trains a day with over 80 percent of them being on time within five minutes. And on some days they will have up to twenty plus charter steam trains, and other trains plying their 20,000 ish miles of track.

I think it also helps that in Germany there is a legal distinction between DB as operator of trains and DB Netz as owner and operator of the infrastructure. DB Netz is by its own charter required to deal with all operators equally. So even if they may actually think a charter is a bunch of foamers playing trains, they cannot discriminate against them on those grounds, provided the charter operator acts professionally and files all the paperwork correctly.

In the USA on the other hand, there is nothing to stop freight railroads from discriminating, and even on its own tracks Amtrak discriminates against third parties..

 

[cirdan]

What is the amount of German Federal and State financial support that DB gets? AFAIK the LD network has to pretty much cover its costs, but for short/medium distance the subsidy leve is something like 23% to 24%

What is their staffing level? How easy or difficult is it for them to find spare staff? How much equipment do they have? How much from that pool are they easily able to spare?

It really is an Apples to Hippopotamus comparison.

No.

DB is split into different entities.

DB Netz owns and maintains the land, tracks and buildings, and dispatches the operations. DB netz does not receive a direct subsidy for normal operations (but things such as high speed lines or major upgrades may be supported by government loans at favotable rates, or even nominal loans that don't actually need to be repaid).

DB (Bahn) operates the inter city services. These pay their own way. I guess there is some cross subsidy with the stronger lines transferring money to the weaker ones. However, some under-performing lines have been eliminated.

DB Cargo / DB Schencker operates freight trains. These are not subsidized. They are in direct competition to a plethora of foreign and independent operators also operating freight trains. On the other hand, DB Scencker also operates in other countries, in some cases competing with local railroads, in some cases having taken them over.

DB Regio operates all local and regional passenger services. Schedules, fares and levels of service are defined by local and regional authorities, who pay (subsidize) DB Regio to operate the service. This is the only direcvtly subsidized part of DB.. DB Regio needs to compete with a plethora of foreign and local operators every time the contracts come up for renewal. On the other hand, through its internationl arm, Arriva, DB Regio also competes for contracts in other countries.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

I think you each missed the point I was after. The point I was getting at was Amtrak sometimes won't issue a contract till the week prior, or even day of. While Deutsche Bahn issues one immediately upon the first approval.

And mostly the charters have to price a lot higher due to an unknown raise we might get on the final contract.

Oh I got your point of view. Thank you for sharing insider information on the PV scene. My point was free market where you can run a train with out the need to buy the railroad tracks. In your case DB Rail is getting agreement out several months in advance, where Amtrak signs the contract as your leaving the station. No other reason than a monopoly. Customer vs Inconvenience. Sorry but Amtrak is just been short sighted with the charters and PV moves, and the money to be made. You have to know your cost of doing business in order to make money at your business. Just dont think Amtrak has internal accounting reports. So many decisions made with out good accounting to back them up.

 

[railiner]

What is the amount of German Federal and State financial support that DB gets? AFAIK the LD network has to pretty much cover its costs, but for short/medium distance the subsidy leve is something like 23% to 24%

What is their staffing level? How easy or difficult is it for them to find spare staff? How much equipment do they have? How much from that pool are they easily able to spare?

It really is an Apples to Hippopotamus comparison.

No.

DB is split into different entities.

DB Netz owns and maintains the land, tracks and buildings, and dispatches the operations. DB netz does not receive a direct subsidy for normal operations (but things such as high speed lines or major upgrades may be supported by government loans at favotable rates, or even nominal loans that don't actually need to be repaid).

DB (Bahn) operates the inter city services. These pay their own way. I guess there is some cross subsidy with the stronger lines transferring money to the weaker ones. However, some under-performing lines have been eliminated.

DB Cargo / DB Schencker operates freight trains. These are not subsidized. They are in direct competition to a plethora of foreign and independent operators also operating freight trains. On the other hand, DB Scencker also operates in other countries, in some cases competing with local railroads, in some cases having taken them over.

DB Regio operates all local and regional passenger services. Schedules, fares and levels of service are defined by local and regional authorities, who pay (subsidize) DB Regio to operate the service. This is the only direcvtly subsidized part of DB.. DB Regio needs to compete with a plethora of foreign and local operators every time the contracts come up for renewal. On the other hand, through its internationl arm, Arriva, DB Regio also competes for contracts in other countries.

That is very interesting...after reading your comments, I couldn't help thinking of 'what if' in the future, the US rail system evolved into that sort of scenario?

Just imagine what passenger service would exist (or not).......

 

[bretton88]

What is the amount of German Federal and State financial support that DB gets? AFAIK the LD network has to pretty much cover its costs, but for short/medium distance the subsidy leve is something like 23% to 24%

What is their staffing level? How easy or difficult is it for them to find spare staff? How much equipment do they have? How much from that pool are they easily able to spare?

It really is an Apples to Hippopotamus comparison.

No.

DB is split into different entities.

DB Netz owns and maintains the land, tracks and buildings, and dispatches the operations. DB netz does not receive a direct subsidy for normal operations (but things such as high speed lines or major upgrades may be supported by government loans at favotable rates, or even nominal loans that don't actually need to be repaid).

DB (Bahn) operates the inter city services. These pay their own way. I guess there is some cross subsidy with the stronger lines transferring money to the weaker ones. However, some under-performing lines have been eliminated.

DB Cargo / DB Schencker operates freight trains. These are not subsidized. They are in direct competition to a plethora of foreign and independent operators also operating freight trains. On the other hand, DB Scencker also operates in other countries, in some cases competing with local railroads, in some cases having taken them over.

DB Regio operates all local and regional passenger services. Schedules, fares and levels of service are defined by local and regional authorities, who pay (subsidize) DB Regio to operate the service. This is the only direcvtly subsidized part of DB.. DB Regio needs to compete with a plethora of foreign and local operators every time the contracts come up for renewal. On the other hand, through its internationl arm, Arriva, DB Regio also competes for contracts in other countries.

That is very interesting...after reading your comments, I couldn't help thinking of 'what if' in the future, the US rail system evolved into that sort of scenario?Just imagine what passenger service would exist (or not).......

Under such a scenario, this would probably eliminate or significantly alter the LD network (just like DB got rid of it's sleeper trains). You'd have the NEC/other Amtrak holdings being run by Amtrak, but owned by a subsidiary (Amtrak holdings?). Then you'd have whatever corridors the states want to run up for bid, so some might be run by Amtrak, some might be run by private entities.

 

[CHvision]

Previously, on the 17th, the Empire Builder to Chicago was over an 1 hr. However, reaching to St. Paul, the cars took less than 15 minutes to couple to the Builder. Later, the lateness dropped to to 20 mins to Chicago.

 

[seat38a]

Previously, on the 17th, the Empire Builder to Chicago was over an 1 hr. However, reaching to St. Paul, the cars took less than 15 minutes to couple to the Builder. Later, the lateness dropped to to 20 mins to Chicago.

Just imagine if they didn't spend the 15 minutes coupling. That could have been only 5 minutes late into Chicago.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I can't speak for the German operation but let's expand and help you out with the United States operation:

United States
Step 1: send your proposal of a trip in. Include the same basic information to Amtrak. You may or may not get a response on it.

STEP 1(A): Wait as Amtrak contacts EVERY HOST railroad and EVERY DIVISION and facility your special little train will touch and wait to see if they will support the move
Step 2: if it's doable you receive preliminary approval. Meaning you can market it but Amtrak hasn't set up the contract yet. With a preliminary price.

Step 2(A):Wait for every host railroad to draw up THEIR contracts, waivers and operating plans and send them to Amtrak. Sometimes, they don't get back to Amtrak in a timely fashion either. Additionally, wait for the facilities and manpower reports from the impacted facilities
Step 3:market the trip

Step 3(A): While that is going on, the very small Special Movements, Groups and Charters desk is still working on follow up with the host railroads for you special trip and the 50 other groups, private car operators and special movements, including our own freight services and equipment moves...which they are also in charge of.
Step 4: usually a week out sometimes even on the day of. A final quote (usually higher) and the actual contract.

Step 4(A) Receive the final costs for the expense since things have changed since this was proposed. To support your move to the middle of nowhere, we have to bring in an extra crew. That is because there was a service disruption in the middle of the week and now crews and back up forces have to be brought on overtime. In some cases, we have to bring in support, including equipment from other crew bases, driving up costs and depleting work forces from other locations.
Step 5: operate the train.
Step 5(A): People complain about the last minute operations and manipulations and even want penalties for last minute changes.

Step 5(B) A high ranking official seethes for years but Mr. Boardman thinks it is important part of the railroad.

Step 5© Mr Boardman retires yet this seething high ranking official still works here.

Step 5(D) Mr. Anderson arrives, hears about this operation, says something like "this is ridiculous" and says "Don't operate the trains unless manpower is normally available and there is no impact to our trains, equipment or power. We'll find other ways to make up for the missing revenue."

Step 5(E) Don't operate the train unless there is a long standing agreement in place

As you can see the German Deutsche Bahn is far better to operate a charter on because they stick to the initial price, and contract to run before a week out. It's a much less stressful situation for operators.

This is probably the song involved while the Germans draft their operating plan, which probably doesn't involve multiple railroads with multiple operating rules and procedures:

You're welcome, Seaboard. You're welcome!

 

[jis]

As I said, Apples to Hippopotamus comparison

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

I agree with Charters part, but why screw the PV bit?

How hard is it to tack a extra car on?

If Amtrak is getting rid of outside charters are they getting rid of there inside charters? What about the school special from Florida. What about a Congress special? A football special?

 

[Thirdrail7]

I agree with Charters part, but why screw the PV bit?

How hard is it to tack a extra car on?

If Amtrak is getting rid of outside charters are they getting rid of there inside charters? What about the school special from Florida. What about a Congress special? A football special?

Who said they were getting rid of outside charters? Who said they are getting rid of inside charters? Only buffs on boards and the initial "sound the alarms without information" even suggested that,

As previously stated, exceptions to the general private car and charter/special guidelines will be decided on a case by case basis.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

So add the [Case by Case review] part to the above expanded [How it gets done]. The question become when does Amtrak determines the [Case by Case Review] part. The day before or within 7 days of the initial application. Makes a small difference....

Side note DB Rail has a service that will get you paths for your train both inside of and outside of Germany. A one stop shopping service for a fee of course.