St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

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Amtrak25 said:
I suppose they could have used historical Milwaukee Road train name like Twin Cities Hiawatha, but maybe that would have enfringed on copyrights, possibly owned by CP now.
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Good question--no idea about if the Twin Cities Hiawatha name is actually copyrighted or otherwise owned by CP. But when they made clear that the "Great River" name wasn't being kept, I did think that they might try to name it the TC Hiawatha, especially since the Borealis will simply be an extension of an existing Hiawatha trip, so it would keep with the existing branding. I guess either the name truly wasn't available, or the partners on the service wanted to go with something distinctly different!
 
jis said:
Yep. I have traveled on that. Arrived in Fairbanks in the evening. Temp was -36F when we arrived. And got to see the actual Aurora.
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My first ride on the ARR, was back in 1970, when their primary day train was the AuRoRa…

In its consist were several ex-US Army former hospital cars, converted to other use. One was a lounge car containing a jukebox!
No domes on the ARR back then. Alaska cruising was in its infancy.
 
Amtrak25 said:
suppose they could have used historical Milwaukee Road train name like Twin Cities Hiawatha, but maybe that would have enfringed on copyrights, possibly owned by CP now.
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That I doubt, since Amtrak already uses the name Hiawatha, and the term "twin cities" surely is public domain.
 
railiner said:
My first ride on the ARR, was back in 1970, when their primary day train was the AuRoRa…

In its consist were several ex-US Army former hospital cars, converted to other use. One was a lounge car containing a jukebox!
No domes on the ARR back then. Alaska cruising was in its infancy.
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I traveled by the Winter Aurora which ran only on weekends Anchorage to Fairbanks on Saturday and return on Sunday. It had no dome cars or anything like that. It was a very utilitarian trains which was waved down several times by people by the wayside with the sleds and what not between Talkeetna and Hurricane. It was very cold and snowing most of the way. The cars were the new Korean Hyundai stock. It had a Cafe Counter Car and no Diner.
 
west point said:
At any time in the past did more than 1 RR have the same name for a train? Do not count the multi RR thru trains.
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Both the Southern Railway and the Missouri Pacific had a train named the Southerner. Southern's ran from New York to New Orleans; MoPac's from St. Louis to San Antonio with a section from Texarkana to El Paso named the Westerner which also operated on the T&P.
 
You can't copyright names. (I worked in publishing for many years and dealt with copyrights and trademarks, along with other work.) You could trademark them, but to keep the trademark, you have to register and defend it. Many trademarks have been lost and become generic words (for example, aspirin, cellophane, escalator, and trampoline). "Great River" doesn't sound like it's worth seizing and defending.
 
Amtrak25 said:
Since Amtrak's route to St Paul doesn't go through Aurora, IL, they can't call it "Aurora Borealis". If they called it "Twin Cities Borealis", that might offend Wisconsin, who is partly paying for it, and also implies the train goes to Minneapolis.

Wonder if they will place a Cabbage-40 on one end of it, not that Chicago has a good record in keeping their 5 on the road.
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Best that Amtrak keep this in a neutral zone since the MSP-CHI route will cover 3 states Illinois Wisconsin
and Minnesota.
The Hiawatha exists between Chicago and Milwaukee and could be extended to the Green Bay area -OR-
to the Twin Cities which in my opinion would be the best selection since it is part of the original route.
Naming train names is bad enough with Minnesota recently redoing the state flag and its issues.
The Duluth service could best use the Northern Lights Express name since the North Star is already is in use
with the Minneapolis Big Lake commuter line which should have gone to St. Cloud in its inception.

AND then there is the issue of which Depot Boarding Point to use - not so great Target Field and the issue
of restoring the old Midway Depot site which is used as a storage yard for grain cars and the Commercial
Rail operation headquarters - lastly SPUD (St. Paul Union Depot) which can handle two trains (2 tracks) at
a time but is near an extremely high traffic point the Division Street WYE with some 50-60 trains of various
lengths transit daily.

Naming trains will be a small issue compared to where to locate a common Depot to integrate the
planned trains. There are 3 routes the Short line used presently by Amtrak - and then the 2 Midway
routes used by CP UP BNSF and others --- between the ends of the line Target and SPUD.
Having one depot and a common connection point should be the goal - if not establish some form
of *rapid* transit between the points other than existing light rail bus Uber Lyft cab taxi.
 
Minneapolis - St Paul transportation reminds me of the Emeryville - San Fransisco situation. There needs to be Thruway buses so anybody from any train can get to get to any other train.

I never thought SPUD was operationally a great idea, vanity winning the day. Doesn't Amtrak have to jump across a former Chicago Great Western track and engage the UP dispatcher in Omaha to get in and out of there ? Better to have spent money on a light rail station near Midway station, but that ship has sailed.
 
WWW, in case you haven't seen elsewhere, it is already decided that this service--the Borealis--will be an extension of an existing Hiawatha trip. So that is set in stone. The current terminus for the Borealis is SPUD, which is also set in stone. Not saying it can't/won't change to terminate at Target Field Station or elsewhere in the future, but it's ending at SPUD for the foreseeable future (once it actually starts running, that is!).

If you look up in this thread (maybe you have already) there has been discussion here (and also on the NLX thread, and on a separate thread related to Twin Cities transportation) about making future connections between the Borealis, the NLX, and any other possible future Amtrak service in the Twin Cities.

Thankfully, there's a lot of work and at least ~4 to 5 years between now and whenever the NLX would actually begin service. So, there's lots of time in coming years to address this. Not holding my breath for NLX being soon, since the it failed to get federal funding for construction with other projects last November; that sets the timeline even further back, despite finally having state matching funding.
 
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Aurora was the Greek goddess of the dawn, and borealis is Greek for northern...
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Boreas was the god of the north wind. It's about time he got a train named after him. His brother Zephyrus got much luckier, in that respect. And it's been almost 100 years now since you could ride a train over Boreas Pass in Colorado, though you can still drive the old roadbed.
 
Alaska Railroad also has an excursion called the Borealis I just discovered. https://www.alaskarailroad.com/travel-planning/packages/the-borealis Looks like it runs once this spring, 8 nights, $2000.

The Schooner would have been a good name. Just don't call it a Schooner Barge.

A schooner barge is a type of ship; a schooner converted as a barge. Schooner barges originated on the Great Lakes in the 1860s and were in use until World War II, although a few survived into the 1950s.

Even though steamboats were used for time-critical routes such as for passengers and mail, schooners were still economical to use for bulk cargoes such as grain, wood, or iron ore.
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Though it's not technically wrong to reference the Mississippi River with a name like Great River (and Amtrak has surprisingly little trackage along it) only about 1/3 of this CHI-STP routing is along the Mississippi. And the coloquial associations most people have of the mighty Mississippi and river lore are much farther downstream...St Louis, Memphis, Natchez, Baton Rouge, New Orleans, etc. It would kind of be like naming a rail line between Syracuse and Watertown the Emprie State Limited. It's not...wrong...but it's not really what most people would think for that name.

As for Borealis....it will take some time to grow on me. Of course I know about the Aurora Borealis but the name still makes me think of Boron and Lavoris (old mouthwash brand). Whatever they call it I just want it to S T A R T already! :)
 
I share your feelings, @moselman66 ! The name will take a bit to grow on me and I also just want the service to start. People who are interested can read this agenda (linked below) for the next Great River Rail Commission meeting on March 7, along with the minutes from the last GRRC meeting. Greg Mathis of MnDOT will be providing an official update on the status of the Borealis/second train, which should be interesting.

The minutes from the January GRRC meeting double-confirm what some have said here: There was a weird spat between the GRRC and Amtrak on trademarking the name "Great River Service." Basically, the GRRC got cold feet and was unhappy when Amtrak asked them to sign a consent agreement about the name, which Amtrak was trying to trademark. And now the issue of trademarking etc. is moot since the different name was chosen (probably in part due to this spat). All's well that ends well, I guess?
 
Kramerica said:
I guess it should be no surprise that Amtrak got two bites at the naming apple, and screwed up both of them.

The name should have Hiawatha in it, period. It is so simple even a caveman could do it. But not Amtrak.
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Are you sure that it is Amtrak that chose the name and not Minnesota and/or Wisconsin DOT? If so could you provide some evidence that it is Amtrak alone that chose the name?
 

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