St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

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Amtrak25 said:
Horizon cars are fine. The CHI-MSP-DUL "North Star" used Amfleet.

Could the 3 California Horizon dinette cars, idle since 2020 that Amtrak supposedly wants back for some reason, be used for this ?

Aurora Broealis: "A display of colored lights in the sky, also called northern lights, caused by the interaction of particles from the sun with the upper atmosphere near the North Pole."
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Good question about the California dinette cars. No idea but it would be really nice for the service. Somehow doubt they'll be used for this service, though.

If the Borealis name is indeed final, when this service and the (knock on wood) Northern Lights Express between Mpls - Duluth are running, there will be three routes in MN named for either stars or northern atmospheric phenomena 😆 (With the third, of course, being the Northstar commuter rail line from Mpls to Big Lake, MN).

TransitTyrant said:
The Great River Rail Commission was throwing a fit over Amtrak trying to copyrighting the name “Great River” so that’s probably why the name was changed.
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Yes, I heard that as well! Between that issue with the GRRC (still don't understand their unhappiness) and (apparently) MnDOT and WisDOT flat-out not liking the name, I'm not shocked at the change!
 
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OmahaRoad said:
Good question about the California dinette cars. No idea but it would be really nice for the service. Somehow doubt they'll be used for this service, though.

If the Borealis name is indeed final, when this service and the (knock on wood) Northern Lights Express between Mpls - Duluth are running, there will be three routes in MN named for either stars or northern atmospheric phenomena 😆 (With the third, of course, being the Northstar commuter rail line from Mpls to Big Lake, MN).
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If you Google "borealis", you get, almost exclusively, hits on "aurora borealis", but "borealis' does not mean the Northern Lights. "Borealis" is an adjective meaning "northern". There also exist the "Borealis Basin", a very large, very ancient depression or crater on Mars which includes its north polar region, and the "boreal forest" (aka taiga), the large cold forest covering much of Canada, Alaska, northern Europe and Russia.

Aurora was the Greek goddess of the dawn, and borealis is Greek for northern, so the aurora borealis is the Northern Sky Glow. The ancient Greeks did not know about charged particles, the solar wind, or the Earth's magnetic field. The sky in the east glows before sunrise, and they thought the aurora borealis was a variation of the same phenomenon.

So technically, a train called the "Borealis" is not named for either stars or an atmospheric phenomenon, but just the fact that it goes north.

A trip that long definitely requires and deserves decent meal service.
 
Since Amtrak's route to St Paul doesn't go through Aurora, IL, they can't call it "Aurora Borealis". If they called it "Twin Cities Borealis", that might offend Wisconsin, who is partly paying for it, and also implies the train goes to Minneapolis.

Wonder if they will place a Cabbage-40 on one end of it, not that Chicago has a good record in keeping their 5 on the road.
 
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John Santos said:
If you Google "borealis", you get, almost exclusively, hits on "aurora borealis", but "borealis' does NOT mean the Northern Lights. "Borealis" is an adjective meaning "northern". There also exist the "Borealis Basin", a very large, very ancient depression or crater on Mars which includes its north polar region, and the "boreal forest" (aka taiga), the large cold forest covering much of Canada, Alaska, northern Europe and Russia.

Aurora was the Greek goddess of the dawn, and borealis is Greek for northern, so the aurora borealis is the Northern Sky Glow. The ancient Greeks did not know about charged particles, the solar wind, or the Earth's magnetic field. The sky in the east glows before sunrise, and they thought the aurora borealis was a variation of the same phenomenon.

So technically, a train called the "Borealis" is not named for either stars or an atmospheric phenomenon, but just the fact that it goes north.

A trip that long definitely requires and deserves decent meal service.
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I love your historical and technical explanation, John! Very interesting, especially the explanation about the ancient Greeks! So you are definitely right in a technical sense :)

However, I am 98% sure that those who named this train were not thinking of the real meaning or origin of borealis, and mean the train to be named after the aurora borealis due to it traversing two states where that phenomenon can be seen. (Plus, the name Northern Lights name was taken) Of course, I'd love to be proven wrong and have someone at a ribbon cutting say "And we named this train Borealis meaning Greek for Northern!" We'll just have to wait and see😉
 
OmahaRoad said:
I love your historical and technical explanation, John! Very interesting, especially the explanation about the ancient Greeks! So you are definitely right in a technical sense :)

However, I am 98% sure that those who named this train were not thinking of the real meaning or origin of borealis, and mean the train to be named after the aurora borealis due to it traversing two states where that phenomenon can be seen. (Plus, the name Northern Lights name was taken) Of course, I'd love to be proven wrong and have someone at a ribbon cutting say "And we named this train Borealis meaning Greek for Northern!" We'll just have to wait and see😉
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Giving it a Greek name may result in a protest from the Turkish government.
 
Amtrak25 said:
I suppose they could have used historical Milwaukee Road train name like Twin Cities Hiawatha, but maybe that would have enfringed on copyrights, possibly owned by CP now.
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Good question--no idea about if the Twin Cities Hiawatha name is actually copyrighted or otherwise owned by CP. But when they made clear that the "Great River" name wasn't being kept, I did think that they might try to name it the TC Hiawatha, especially since the Borealis will simply be an extension of an existing Hiawatha trip, so it would keep with the existing branding. I guess either the name truly wasn't available, or the partners on the service wanted to go with something distinctly different!
 
jis said:
Yep. I have traveled on that. Arrived in Fairbanks in the evening. Temp was -36F when we arrived. And got to see the actual Aurora.
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My first ride on the ARR, was back in 1970, when their primary day train was the AuRoRa…

In its consist were several ex-US Army former hospital cars, converted to other use. One was a lounge car containing a jukebox!
No domes on the ARR back then. Alaska cruising was in its infancy.
 
Amtrak25 said:
suppose they could have used historical Milwaukee Road train name like Twin Cities Hiawatha, but maybe that would have enfringed on copyrights, possibly owned by CP now.
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That I doubt, since Amtrak already uses the name Hiawatha, and the term "twin cities" surely is public domain.
 
railiner said:
My first ride on the ARR, was back in 1970, when their primary day train was the AuRoRa…

In its consist were several ex-US Army former hospital cars, converted to other use. One was a lounge car containing a jukebox!
No domes on the ARR back then. Alaska cruising was in its infancy.
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I traveled by the Winter Aurora which ran only on weekends Anchorage to Fairbanks on Saturday and return on Sunday. It had no dome cars or anything like that. It was a very utilitarian trains which was waved down several times by people by the wayside with the sleds and what not between Talkeetna and Hurricane. It was very cold and snowing most of the way. The cars were the new Korean Hyundai stock. It had a Cafe Counter Car and no Diner.
 
west point said:
At any time in the past did more than 1 RR have the same name for a train? Do not count the multi RR thru trains.
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Both the Southern Railway and the Missouri Pacific had a train named the Southerner. Southern's ran from New York to New Orleans; MoPac's from St. Louis to San Antonio with a section from Texarkana to El Paso named the Westerner which also operated on the T&P.
 
You can't copyright names. (I worked in publishing for many years and dealt with copyrights and trademarks, along with other work.) You could trademark them, but to keep the trademark, you have to register and defend it. Many trademarks have been lost and become generic words (for example, aspirin, cellophane, escalator, and trampoline). "Great River" doesn't sound like it's worth seizing and defending.
 
Amtrak25 said:
Since Amtrak's route to St Paul doesn't go through Aurora, IL, they can't call it "Aurora Borealis". If they called it "Twin Cities Borealis", that might offend Wisconsin, who is partly paying for it, and also implies the train goes to Minneapolis.

Wonder if they will place a Cabbage-40 on one end of it, not that Chicago has a good record in keeping their 5 on the road.
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Best that Amtrak keep this in a neutral zone since the MSP-CHI route will cover 3 states Illinois Wisconsin
and Minnesota.
The Hiawatha exists between Chicago and Milwaukee and could be extended to the Green Bay area -OR-
to the Twin Cities which in my opinion would be the best selection since it is part of the original route.
Naming train names is bad enough with Minnesota recently redoing the state flag and its issues.
The Duluth service could best use the Northern Lights Express name since the North Star is already is in use
with the Minneapolis Big Lake commuter line which should have gone to St. Cloud in its inception.

AND then there is the issue of which Depot Boarding Point to use - not so great Target Field and the issue
of restoring the old Midway Depot site which is used as a storage yard for grain cars and the Commercial
Rail operation headquarters - lastly SPUD (St. Paul Union Depot) which can handle two trains (2 tracks) at
a time but is near an extremely high traffic point the Division Street WYE with some 50-60 trains of various
lengths transit daily.

Naming trains will be a small issue compared to where to locate a common Depot to integrate the
planned trains. There are 3 routes the Short line used presently by Amtrak - and then the 2 Midway
routes used by CP UP BNSF and others --- between the ends of the line Target and SPUD.
Having one depot and a common connection point should be the goal - if not establish some form
of *rapid* transit between the points other than existing light rail bus Uber Lyft cab taxi.
 
Minneapolis - St Paul transportation reminds me of the Emeryville - San Fransisco situation. There needs to be Thruway buses so anybody from any train can get to get to any other train.

I never thought SPUD was operationally a great idea, vanity winning the day. Doesn't Amtrak have to jump across a former Chicago Great Western track and engage the UP dispatcher in Omaha to get in and out of there ? Better to have spent money on a light rail station near Midway station, but that ship has sailed.
 
WWW, in case you haven't seen elsewhere, it is already decided that this service--the Borealis--will be an extension of an existing Hiawatha trip. So that is set in stone. The current terminus for the Borealis is SPUD, which is also set in stone. Not saying it can't/won't change to terminate at Target Field Station or elsewhere in the future, but it's ending at SPUD for the foreseeable future (once it actually starts running, that is!).

If you look up in this thread (maybe you have already) there has been discussion here (and also on the NLX thread, and on a separate thread related to Twin Cities transportation) about making future connections between the Borealis, the NLX, and any other possible future Amtrak service in the Twin Cities.

Thankfully, there's a lot of work and at least ~4 to 5 years between now and whenever the NLX would actually begin service. So, there's lots of time in coming years to address this. Not holding my breath for NLX being soon, since the it failed to get federal funding for construction with other projects last November; that sets the timeline even further back, despite finally having state matching funding.
 
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Aurora was the Greek goddess of the dawn, and borealis is Greek for northern...
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Boreas was the god of the north wind. It's about time he got a train named after him. His brother Zephyrus got much luckier, in that respect. And it's been almost 100 years now since you could ride a train over Boreas Pass in Colorado, though you can still drive the old roadbed.
 
Alaska Railroad also has an excursion called the Borealis I just discovered. https://www.alaskarailroad.com/travel-planning/packages/the-borealis Looks like it runs once this spring, 8 nights, $2000.

The Schooner would have been a good name. Just don't call it a Schooner Barge.

A schooner barge is a type of ship; a schooner converted as a barge. Schooner barges originated on the Great Lakes in the 1860s and were in use until World War II, although a few survived into the 1950s.

Even though steamboats were used for time-critical routes such as for passengers and mail, schooners were still economical to use for bulk cargoes such as grain, wood, or iron ore.
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