5 Killed: Michigan Collision with Wolverine (2009)

[George Harris]

The chances of a short passenger train being derailed due to going into emergency braking is almost nil. The possibility of wheel flat spots from the brake locking up the wheelset is much higher. The brake line propgation time and draft gear run in issues are near insignificant in a train as short as the one in this case.

The stopping distance of a long freight train is much longer due to brake line propgation time and greater mass per wheel. the one mile commonly quoted is normally stated as "up to a mile" but somehow those first few words seem to be forgotten.

However, even short freights can stop in will under one mile There is an example, quite a few years back now, of a short freight that hit a school bus (the driver did not stop and open her door as required by law) moving at near 60 mph and stopping in something like 1500 feet distance.

 

[DET63]

What street was the train crossing when the accident took place? The news reports usually give the location simply as "Canton Township, 20 miles west of Detroit," which doesn't tell very much.

Hannan Road. Use the links I provided in the 1st post to see it.

According to Google Maps, Hannan Road is in Wayne. I don't know if Wayne (or part of it) is in Canton Township, if Google Maps is wrong about the city, or if it's another example of sloppy reporting.

If the Google Maps picture of the crossing is correct, there is a plate below the signals that reads "STOP ON RED SIGNAL," but I suppose the driver might have been going a bit too fast to read it.

 

[AAARGH!]

If the Google Maps picture of the crossing is correct, there is a plate below the signals that reads "STOP ON RED SIGNAL," but I suppose the driver might have been going a bit too fast to read it.

I would think the gate down across the road would be an obvious indication to stop. If the gate on his side was obscured by the SUV, he certainly should have seen the gate on the other side of the tracks blocking the other lane. Not to mention the blinking lights at the top of the RR crossing pole and the vewry loud train horn blowing. Somebody would really have to not be paying attention to miss all the indications that a train is about to cross.

 

[wayman]

If the Google Maps picture of the crossing is correct, there is a plate below the signals that reads "STOP ON RED SIGNAL," but I suppose the driver might have been going a bit too fast to read it.

I would think the gate down across the road would be an obvious indication to stop. If the gate on his side was obscured by the SUV, ...

... he should have certainly seen the SUV, too! Swerving into the oncoming-traffic lane to go around a stopped vehicle at high speed is rather widely regarded as unsafe and is under most circumstances blatantly illegal, too, regardless of whether there's a railroad crossing involved or not.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

If the Google Maps picture of the crossing is correct, there is a plate below the signals that reads "STOP ON RED SIGNAL," but I suppose the driver might have been going a bit too fast to read it.

I would think the gate down across the road would be an obvious indication to stop. If the gate on his side was obscured by the SUV, ...

... he should have certainly seen the SUV, too! Swerving into the oncoming-traffic lane to go around a stopped vehicle at high speed is rather widely regarded as unsafe and is under most circumstances blatantly illegal, too, regardless of whether there's a railroad crossing involved or not.

What looks weird (on camera on least) is how fast he's going in the wrong lane to pass the gate and SUV, however, the driver would (if not for the train) need to make a very shard right-hand turn to clear the gate that would be directly across from them. That is a very tight turn to make at that speed-- It doesn't mean anything except that s/he's a very wreckless driver. Even without a train he could have front-ended any person waiting in the lane across the tracks with that gate in front of them!

 

[PetalumaLoco]

Did you notice as the trailing engine comes into view there's a cloud of debris following the train as it exits left.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Did you notice as the trailing engine comes into view there's a cloud of debris following the train as it exits left.

Indeed. It was a nasty accident.

 

[Spokker]

There are people complaining on the site where the video is being shown that it should not indeed be shown. It should absolutely be released. Maybe some people will get it rammed through their thick skulls that you stop when you see flashing lights and hear bells at railroad crossings, or they'll get a train rammed through their thick skulls instead.

 

[jis]

I think that video together with the picture of the car being removed by the towing company should be shown as part of Operation Lifesaver and in various schools when they talk about traffic safety. Due to the circumstances the video does not contain any gore at all and it is yet patently obvious what happened.

 

[JayPea]

There are people complaining on the site where the video is being shown that it should not indeed be shown. It should absolutely be released. Maybe some people will get it rammed through their thick skulls that you stop when you see flashing lights and hear bells at railroad crossings, or they'll get a train rammed through their thick skulls instead.

I couldn't agree more. Seeing something like this might just be what it takes for some drivers to stop at a crossing rather than telling someone to.

 

[creddick]

If the Google Maps picture of the crossing is correct, there is a plate below the signals that reads "STOP ON RED SIGNAL," but I suppose the driver might have been going a bit too fast to read it.

I would think the gate down across the road would be an obvious indication to stop. If the gate on his side was obscured by the SUV, ...

... he should have certainly seen the SUV, too! Swerving into the oncoming-traffic lane to go around a stopped vehicle at high speed is rather widely regarded as unsafe and is under most circumstances blatantly illegal, too, regardless of whether there's a railroad crossing involved or not.

What looks weird (on camera on least) is how fast he's going in the wrong lane to pass the gate and SUV, however, the driver would (if not for the train) need to make a very shard right-hand turn to clear the gate that would be directly across from them. That is a very tight turn to make at that speed-- It doesn't mean anything except that s/he's a very wreckless driver. Even without a train he could have front-ended any person waiting in the lane across the tracks with that gate in front of them!

The driver's license had been suspended the day before for bad driving. Again, no sympathy for him, he got what he deserved. For EVERYONE else, however...

 

[Green Maned Lion]

If the cop was right, and the train was going 67 mph (not 79 mph or whatever others have speculated), how long should it have taken the train to stop? A mile, as the cop suggested?

Many people are trained to think a train takes a mile to stop because that's a figure that is thrown around to prove a point. Remember that the media will think anything over a half-mile is equal to "nearly a mile".

According to the account a truck pulled over and people went over to offer assistance. If that is the case, they were probably only a few hundred yards at most from the crossing.

Not to mention the increased deceleration of hitting an object and lodging it under your snowplow.

 

[DET63]

What looks weird (on camera on least) is how fast he's going in the wrong lane to pass the gate and SUV, however, the driver would (if not for the train) need to make a very shard right-hand turn to clear the gate that would be directly across from them. That is a very tight turn to make at that speed-- It doesn't mean anything except that s/he's a very wreckless driver. Even without a train he could have front-ended any person waiting in the lane across the tracks with that gate in front of them!

"That is a very tight turn to make at that speed-- It doesn't mean anything except that s/he's a very wreckless driver."

That should be reckless. A reckless driver is likely to be anything but "wreckless."

As for the other points made, it's unlikely that the driver was thinking of them at the time--or had ever thought of them. That's one of the reasons teenage drivers have high insurance rates.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

What looks weird (on camera on least) is how fast he's going in the wrong lane to pass the gate and SUV, however, the driver would (if not for the train) need to make a very shard right-hand turn to clear the gate that would be directly across from them. That is a very tight turn to make at that speed-- It doesn't mean anything except that s/he's a very wreckless driver. Even without a train he could have front-ended any person waiting in the lane across the tracks with that gate in front of them!

"That is a very tight turn to make at that speed-- It doesn't mean anything except that s/he's a very wreckless driver."

That should be reckless. A reckless driver is likely to be anything but "wreckless."

As for the other points made, it's unlikely that the driver was thinking of them at the time--or had ever thought of them. That's one of the reasons teenage drivers have high insurance rates.

... Thanks. <_<

Personally, I would avoid lumping teenage drivers into one loop-- but have it your way.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Personally, I would avoid lumping teenage drivers into one loop-- but have it your way.

Gotta say, most teenage drivers are pretty reckless and very rarely wreckless. Thinking of people I knew in school at the time, their parents had all gotten them new cars, mostly BMWs, Mercedes, Lexuses. Spoiled brats. Anyway, only one of them that I'm thinking of, out of 15 people, didn't total their car within the course of senior year. I totalled my car, too, actually. But my car was an ancient heap of junk (a rusted hulk of a misfiring 240D) and the reason was the other guy ran a red.

Not to say I wasn't reckless. That came later when I had a car that actually had some performance. Still don't trust myself, one of many reasons I drive a slow car once again.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Personally, I would avoid lumping teenage drivers into one loop-- but have it your way.

Gotta say, most teenage drivers are pretty reckless and very rarely wreckless. Thinking of people I knew in school at the time, their parents had all gotten them new cars, mostly BMWs, Mercedes, Lexuses. Spoiled brats. Anyway, only one of them that I'm thinking of, out of 15 people, didn't total their car within the course of senior year. I totalled my car, too, actually. But my car was an ancient heap of junk (a rusted hulk of a misfiring 240D) and the reason was the other guy ran a red.

Not to say I wasn't reckless. That came later when I had a car that actually had some performance. Still don't trust myself, one of many reasons I drive a slow car once again.

Well you have five years on me... so when your premiums increase at 65, I'll be 60. I'll laugh then.

 

[Amtrak839]

Personally, I would avoid lumping teenage drivers into one loop-- but have it your way.

Thinking of people I knew in school at the time, their parents had all gotten them new cars, mostly BMWs, Mercedes, Lexuses. Spoiled brats.

That's how it is at my high school. God forbid that anyone should have to take a bus to get anywhere. I actually have a 16 YO friend who is allowed to drive on the Beltway, but his parents think the bus is too dangerous.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Personally, I would avoid lumping teenage drivers into one loop-- but have it your way.

Gotta say, most teenage drivers are pretty reckless and very rarely wreckless. Thinking of people I knew in school at the time, their parents had all gotten them new cars, mostly BMWs, Mercedes, Lexuses. Spoiled brats. Anyway, only one of them that I'm thinking of, out of 15 people, didn't total their car within the course of senior year. I totalled my car, too, actually. But my car was an ancient heap of junk (a rusted hulk of a misfiring 240D) and the reason was the other guy ran a red.

Not to say I wasn't reckless. That came later when I had a car that actually had some performance. Still don't trust myself, one of many reasons I drive a slow car once again.

Well you have five years on me... so when your premiums increase at 65, I'll be 60. I'll laugh then.

Due to rust issues on my current car, I've been thinking of downgrading to a 10-speed bike. Then I'll laugh when I pay no premiums at all.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

i also saw on the news that there's one crossing in the whole USA or world that has these polls that come out of the ground so you can't go around the gates. it takes 6 seconds for them to deploy. while it would be prohibitively expensive to install at all crossings. maybe just install them at the crossings that have the most accidents.

 

[AlanB]

i also saw on the news that there's one crossing in the whole USA or world that has these polls that come out of the ground so you can't go around the gates. it takes 6 seconds for them to deploy. while it would be prohibitively expensive to install at all crossings. maybe just install them at the crossings that have the most accidents.

Yes, that's a test that's currently being run. If sucessful, which it most likely will be, then you may start to see that type of system deployed at other extremely dangerous crossings. But it will take a while, as it is more expensive than a traditional system.

 

[PetalumaLoco]

i also saw on the news that there's one crossing in the whole USA or world that has these polls that come out of the ground so you can't go around the gates. it takes 6 seconds for them to deploy. while it would be prohibitively expensive to install at all crossings. maybe just install them at the crossings that have the most accidents.

Here's a Florida study that used inexpensive flexible posts , with good results.

 

[wayman]

As for the other points made, it's unlikely that the driver was thinking of them at the time--or had ever thought of them. That's one of the reasons teenage drivers have high insurance rates.

... Thanks. <_<

Personally, I would avoid lumping teenage drivers into one loop-- but have it your way.

Well, it's not so much DET63 lumping teenage drivers here as auto insurance companies lumping teenage drivers--statistically, 16-24 year olds (roughly) get into a lot more accidents, and a lot more very expensive accidents, than other drivers. It's not that all 16-24 year olds are bad drivers, but there are a lot more bad apples in the bunch proportionately (compared with other age groups), and insurance companies base their rates on statistical categories, not individual personalities. Young? More expensive. Male? More expensive. No college degree? More expensive. No drivers ed? More expensive. Red car? More expensive.

Very unfortunate for all the good young drivers

Perhaps the best way to lower your insurance rate is to volunteer for Operation Lifesaver, to help educate the drivers who might otherwise be stupid. No, it won't directly lower your insurance rates, because changing the statistics will take a long time, but it may help future young drivers in the long run.... And if you can help prevent even a single accident, you may save somebody's life and you'll certainly save many, many people a lot of emotional trauma. I suppose I'll put this on my list (my long list...) of things to do... hopefully I'll get around to it someday.

 

[creddick]

The driver's license had been suspended the day before the crash for bad driving. According to the Detroit Free Press, he had six tickets in the two years he had his license. They were for causing an accident, speeding, running a stop sign, etc. His friends say he would never put anybody in harm's way intentionally. Passing a stopped car and ignoring flashing lights and down gates sounds intentional to me. He was 18. His girlfriend who was also killed was 14.

 

[Gord]

The chances of a short passenger train being derailed due to going into emergency braking is almost nil. The possibility of wheel flat spots from the brake locking up the wheelset is much higher. The brake line propgation time and draft gear run in issues are near insignificant in a train as short as the one in this case.
The stopping distance of a long freight train is much longer due to brake line propgation time and greater mass per wheel. the one mile commonly quoted is normally stated as "up to a mile" but somehow those first few words seem to be forgotten.

However, even short freights can stop in will under one mile There is an example, quite a few years back now, of a short freight that hit a school bus (the driver did not stop and open her door as required by law) moving at near 60 mph and stopping in something like 1500 feet distance.

Agreed. Passenger cars and locos have type H, Tightlock couplers and much less slack action than freight consists on top of typically being much shorter. I can't think of a paasenger train derailment in recent times caused solely by an emergency reduction, lots of slid flats, but no derailments.

I would expect a conventional Amtrak or Via train should easily be able to stop within a half mile or less at 60-70 mph. I was on the Crescent a couple of years back where the hose bags hit the pavement at a crossing and dumped the air at roughly 60 mph. I would estimate the stopping distance at about 1/4 to 1/3 of a mile. Those composite brake shoes sure stink and smoke when they get that hot!

Gord

 

[wayman]

The driver's license had been suspended the day before the crash for bad driving. According to the Detroit Free Press, he had six tickets in the two years he had his license. They were for causing an accident, speeding, running a stop sign, etc. His friends say he would never put anybody in harm's way intentionally. Passing a stopped car and ignoring flashing lights and down gates sounds intentional to me. He was 18. His girlfriend who was also killed was 14.

Many of us here have rightly been saying the driver's actions were stupid... but sadly, given the circumstances I have to say that his passengers were also not making a good decision to ride in a car with him, given that he not only had a terrible driving record but was even--that day--illegally driving a vehicle. It doesn't matter that he might have been a "nice guy" or whatever who would never think "I'm going to play chicken with this train, just to scare my friends!"; they knew he was a very bad decision-maker and a serious risk-taker behind the wheel with disregard for the law and for safety, regardless of his "intentions", and still they all willingly let him drive them around. All five of them made bad decisions that day