Adirondack discussion

[fdaley]

Amtrak has notified that Adirondack service will be suspended north of Saratoga Springs from May 20th to June 30th (2024) for unspecified reasons.

Where was this notification given? When I checked yesterday there was no mention of it in the "service alerts" section of the website.

 

[Amtrak25]

There's an Amtrak Fans Facebook. You also can't make reservations.

As usual, Amtrak enjoys not being forthcoming.

 

[jis]

Where was this notification given? When I checked yesterday there was no mention of it in the "service alerts" section of the website.

You just can't make any reservation. Otherwise I have not seen anything official, but then I have not looked too hard either. Not being able to make reservations is good enough notification for me from past experience.

The announcement actually appeared on Facebook this time, of all places, apparently.

 

[west point]

It is almost like Amtrak's lack of transparency on small issues such as this covers up its larger issues of non transparency?

 

[jis]

It is almost like Amtrak's lack of transparency on small issues such as this covers up its larger issues of non transparency?

Never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be adequately explained by incompetence.

 

[Railvt]

Rider reports are widely circulating today that Amtrak is suspending the ADIRONDACK again, this time from May 20 to June 30. Service is apparently continuing as far north as Saratoga Springs. I emphasize that at present this is just a report of notices riders received. There is still no formal announcement at Amtrak.com. But I suspect this is not just a rumor.

Hopefully this is for trackwork which, when completed will preclude another summer of 10mph speed restrictions on the CN north of the border--but none of the on-line chat shows any explanation.

More to the point why isn't NYDOT funding the running of a replacement bus service north of Saratoga this year? At a minimum the start of the peak resort summer season will again be missed.

With engines on both ends (or a cab car and one engine in a "top and tail" arrangement perhaps using one of the just redone former HHP units just converted to cab car status) and the seats now arranged 50/50 front-rear facing, the train could have been turned at either Plattsburgh or Rouses Point with a much shorter bus connection to Montreal and service maintained to the resort and local communities.

Obviously a full announcement and explanation is due on this ASAP! If this is not the case Amtrak needs to restore ADIRONDACK space to its reservations system north of Saratoga during this period. Currently potential riders get a "No trains Available" response.

 

[jis]

Strangely, NYSDOT has almost without fail refused to serve upstate NY on the Adirondack route when service had to be curtailed to Montreal for whatever reason. Even though they claim to the NY Legislators that the Adirondack needs to be funded to serve the Adirondack Region, when push comes to shove they tend not to do what is necessary to meet the goals for running it as stated to the New York Legislature and somehow those folks in Albany don;t care either way apparently.

 

[MARC Rider]

Strangely, NYSDOT has almost without fail refused to serve upstate NY on the Adirondack route when service had to be curtailed to Montreal for whatever reason. Even though they claim to the NY Legislators that the Adirondack needs to be funded to serve the Adirondack Region, when push comes to shove they tend not to do what is necessary to meet the goals for running it as stated to the New York Legislature and somehow those folks in Albany don;t care either way apparently.

Well, at least this time, they're running it to Saratoga Springs. And now that they seem to be considering running top and tails on Amfleet 1 consists such as the Northeast Regionals, there's really no reason why they couldn't run it up to Plattsburgh or even Rouse's Point even if the Canadians are making trouble with the route into Montreal.

 

[Amtrak25]

Run to Plattsburgh and then what ? Train cannot sit there or in the yard several miles south of Plattsburgh overnight. It is 4pm by the time the northbound gets there, too late to come back.

There's plenty of Greyhound, Trailways, and Flix bus service between NYC, Albany, and Montreal. 75% of the Amtrak ridership north of Saratoga is for Montreal. NYSDOT needs to run a minibus from Saratoga to Plattsburgh to serve the Amtrak-only towns that are not served by bus, but Amtrak and DOT do not care. Spending $2 Billion on rerouting I-81 around Syracuse is much more fun.

NYS-DOT has a staff of two who write checks, build train stations, and not much else. This is a flaw of PRIIA-209 as it was for 403b - State DOT's are almost entirely highway outfits while their Amtrak staff are in a couple of cubicles.

In NY, I think an intercity rail subsidiary should be placed under MTA, have DOT's rail budget moved there to have MTA's expertise and competency at their disposal within their organizational structure, i.e. they know how to call up chartered buses at the blink of an eye. MTA knows how and wants to run trains.

 

[zephyr17]

In NY, I think an intercity rail subsidiary should be placed under MTA, have DOT's rail budget moved there to have MTA's expertise and competency at their disposal within their organizational structure, i.e. they know how to call up chartered buses at the blink of an eye. MTA knows how and wants to run trains.

That is a great idea!

 

[glensfallsse]

Bite the bullet, get up 3 hours later, and take Trailways all the way. It is still a very professionally run outfit. My bus didn't need to stop at Longueil, so arrived Montreal a half hour early just before 8pm. There's a meal stop in Fort Edwards. The thru fare will also be cheaper than Amtrak to Albany + Bus Albany to Montreal. They are more expensive than Amtrak.

Fort Edward is not on the Northway, which Greyhound/Trailways use on the run to Plattsburgh and Montreal. Used to be they stopped at a diner in Saratoga Springs, but that diner has been gone for years. I've seen buses stopped at Fastrac off Exit 18 in Glens Falls ... that may be where they stop now. There's a McDonald's and a Taco Bell.

I went to Plattsburgh State 1977 to 1981 and took Greyhound many, many times to get to Montreal for the day. If you didn't have a bag, you didn't even have to get off the bus at the border going north. Ah, the olden days.

 

[glensfallsse]

Btw, for whatever it’s worth, the Southbound Adirondack yesterday had 10 cars plus engines.

 

[Amtrak25]

Btw, for whatever it’s worth, the Southbound Adirondack yesterday had 10 cars plus engines.

Of course. Wednesday's train never left Montreal due to mechanical, though passengers were bussed. Somehow they scrounged up equipment for 69 on Thursday.

 

[Septa9739]

https://www.news10.com/news/local-news/upcoming-closure-to-amtrak-adirondack-line/

Local media confirming the aforementioned outage. No technical details provided

 

[Railvt]

Update from ESPA which clarifies the reasons for the pending ADIRONDACK suspension.

Amtrak confirmed in a Press Statement issued May 9, 2024, that Adirondack Route service between Saratoga Springs, NY & Montreal, QC is being suspended from Monday, May 20 through Sunday, June 30 to accommodate necessary trackwork.
It is ESPA's understanding that the trackwork to be completed is on an approximately 25-mile segment of the Canadian National-owned line north of the US-Canada border used by the Adirondack to reach Montreal.

In the summer of 2023 CN imposed 10mph speed restrictions on this segment which forced Amtrak to institute an unplanned service suspension from late June through early September. The upcoming trackwork should prevent future widespread CN speed restrictions and Amtrak service suspensions.


While ESPA appreciates that the required trackwork will be completed before the start of the peak mid-summer travel season, we are concerned that alternative transportation is not being provided between Saratoga Springs & Montreal during the planned suspension period. We urge Amtrak & NYSDOT to explore all available options to accommodate passengers wishing to travel north of Saratoga Springs during the six-week outage.


The Adirondack will continue to operate on a daily basis between New York City & Saratoga Springs, including for the running of the Belmont Stakes on Saturday, June 8th at the Saratoga Race Track.

And also from the Montreal La Presse:

Here (with Google translation) is the text from an article in the Montreal La Presse newspaper on the ADIRONDACK suspension. Track-work is indeed the cause and as all the discussion is about the situation with CN hopefully that is where the work will take place, but that is not clearly stated. The translation is a bit stilted, but clear enough.

"The Amtrak rail carrier will not offer any replacement for the service, which will only connect New York to the city of Saratoga Springs, “until July”.

“The service was cancelled due to rail maintenance work,” Amtrak said in response to a customer service request. “We apologize for any impact. We have taken this decision to offer more pleasant and safe journeys to our customers. ”

The cancellation “turns into force on 21 May” and “there is no alternative transport”, continued Amtrak’s customer service. The media relations department, for its part, did not recall La Presse.

Saratoga Springs is halfway along the usual route of the Adirondack – the name of the route. The train usually takes about 11 hours to connect Montreal to New York. Some 117,000 passengers used it in 2019.

The situation “rehas a clear indication of the importance attached to intercity services,” said Sarah V. Doyon, spokesperson for the public transport users' defence organization Trajectoire Québec. “This lack of interest in offering alternatives speaks for itself. ”

“It doesn’t give much hope for other rail transport projects,” she said.
“Long-term solution”

The Adirondack has gone through extremely difficult years since 2020.

Its service was interrupted with the start of the pandemic and resumed only three years later, in 2023.

Two months later, however, the train was immobilized for weeks: the arrival of the hot weather created difficulties on part of the railway. Canadian legislation required a significant reduction in speed for trains due to the state of the rail.

“Unfortunately, Amtrak, CN and the New York State Department of Transportation have not found a feasible solution for this summer,” Amtrak said last July. The company stated that continuing to operate the line during the summer could lead to “significant delays of up to four hours.”

Amtrak claimed that discussions were continuing "to develop a long-term solution so that Amtrak trains can run to and from Montreal in the coming summers".

Without an answer from Amtrak, it was not possible to know whether it was the “long-term solution” that caused the cancellation of the service from 21 May.

The service resumed last autumn.

With Henri Ouellette-Vézina, La Presse

L'argent et le bonheur"

 

[lordsigma]

In NY, I think an intercity rail subsidiary should be placed under MTA, have DOT's rail budget moved there to have MTA's expertise and competency at their disposal within their organizational structure, i.e. they know how to call up chartered buses at the blink of an eye. MTA knows how and wants to run trains.

That's been suggested a number of times in Mass with putting intercity rail projects and managing Amtrak under the MBTA but MassDOT has always cited the differences in grant writing as the reason for keeping it separate - essentially in that the transit agencies are normally writing grants to FTA while intercity projects and all Amtrak projects go through FRA and they wanted to keep MBTA's grant writing focus strictly on transit projects. FTA is not allowed to fund projects that exclusively benefit Amtrak service as Amtrak is outright exempted from what FTA's legal definition of public transit is. They can fund non Amtrak regional intercity services that use a contracted operator and operate outside the national network (even if Amtrak is the contracted operator like with CTDOT's Shore Line East service), but the FTA has stricter cost ridership benefit requirements than what FRA has for Amtrak projects and you're going up against all other modes of public transit if you try to finance an intercity rail project in that manner. Also they wanted to keep the MBTA focused on their region of jurisdiction. Those are possible reasons they won't do it, but of course whether it's the same in NY I don't know for sure.

 

[west point]

Is the route on CN al stick Rasil? "IF" so, ;it would appear that CN or even CP could provide replaced rail that was replaced on high traffic areas. I would suggest that the rail, tie plates, & spikes if replaced on main line could be used on the CN portion. Even cross ties that still have life might be used on a route that has almost no freight traffic? Would suggest that rial lengths be reduced to 300 - 400 feet to mitigate any heat kinks. With marginal cross ties that would probably be wise. Now more ballast might be needed for the ties and rail anchors?

 

[Amtrak25]

The majority of it is welded rail. I once read somewhere there are no rail anchors at all on this route regardless. There are 10 freights a week each way.

Notice the remote Quebec VIA trains operate on the northern portions in the middle of the night (to avoid the daytime heat ?).

 

[west point]

"IF" welded rail, no anchors, older ties, not ballasted for welded rail, and add in higher temps . That is definitely a receipt for track problems! Not even all of those need be present.

 

[Railvt]

The ADIRONDACK shares no track mileage with the remote VIA services. Those trains run into the Laurentian Mountains on the north shore of the St. Lawrence. The Amtrak service(s) are South Shore to the Victoria Bridge into Gare Central. The CN line to the border has a mix of welded and jointed rail. There is a daily Montreal to St.Albans freight. The short stem from the Richelieu River bridge to Rouses Point routinely only sees Amtrak.

I have attached a couple of shots I took in June last year of the CN line's St. Albans stem just north of the border. The track condition here is typical of the segments without welded rail on the overall route including that served by the ADIRONDACK. Someday (please before I get my last call) the sections I photographed will host the VERMONTER..

 

[Amtrak25]

The point made about the remote Quebec trains is they had been over-nighted to avoid high daytime temperatures on CN's other lousy trackage as well.

Cantic - Rouses Pt also sees an NS freight train bridged from the CN via the CP/D&H to the NS NY Southern Tier.

Notice this trackage has no anchors, but mostly all spike holes filled, rather than the usual 2, as though they compensated for the lack of anchors. That doesn't work very well, especially on old ties, like a thumb tack on an old bulletin board. A spike is merely a pin.

I think Vermont should look into relaying a mile of track straight west from Cantic to the CP Lacolle line, and running on CPKC into Lucien L'Allier as well, rather than keep dealing with CN for 45 miles and praying for Gare Centrale Preclearance that is unlikely ever to happen either. They have been dithering for 13 years with repeated contractors' construction paper and crayons. Neither the Ottawa government nor Quebec Province are actually interested. Given how they removed the Mt Royal tunnel and its approaches from the national railway network with $C7B REM, what passes for transportation planning and coordination up there is comical.

 

[west point]

In the second photo it appears that the ties gradually getting longer toward the camera was at a CP maybe that was removed? The isolation joint bars may have been part of a CP?

 

[jis]

The ADIRONDACK shares no track mileage with the remote VIA services. Those trains run into the Laurentian Mountains on the north shore of the St. Lawrence. The Amtrak service(s) are South Shore to the Victoria Bridge into Gare Central. The CN line to the border has a mix of welded and jointed rail. There is a daily Montreal to St.Albans freight. The short stem from the Richelieu River bridge to Rouses Point routinely only sees Amtrak.

I don;t think the Montreal - St. Albans freight goes to Rouses Point. I think you meant to say Cantic above, not Rouses Point. Cantic is where there is a hand thrown switch which is normally set towards St. Albans. When the Adirondack passes by there the Conductor gets off the train throws the switch to clear the track from Rouses Point. The train crosses and then the Conductor resets the switch towards St. Albans before the train proceeds.

I have attached a couple of shots I took in June last year of the CN line's St. Albans stem just north of the border. The track condition here is typical of the segments without welded rail on the overall route including that served by the ADIRONDACK. Someday (please before I get my last call) the sections I photographed will host the VERMONTER..

That insulated joint appears to be the track circuit boundary for CV - CN. The next rail join is upto which CV apparently maintained the track. The track to the South of it is well anchored and has longer ties. North of there the track is stick rail with one set of anchors adjacent to each rail joint.

@Railvt I am surmising that this railroad crossing that you were at while taking those photos is just north of the border where Chem. Wolf Ridge (as identified in Google Maps) crosses the railroad.

 

[Amtrak25]

The CV/NECR side of the insulated rail joints and longer cross ties has the grade crossing, yet the crossing sign says to call CN for emergencies.

 

[Railvt]

I don;t think the Montreal - St. Albans freight goes to Rouses Point. I think you meant to say Cantic above, not Rouses Point. Cantic is where there is a hand thrown switch which is normally set towards St. Albans. When the Adirondack passes by there the Conductor gets off the train throws the switch to clear the track from Rouses Point. The train crosses and then the Conductor resets the switch towards St. Albans before the train proceeds.


That insulated joint appears to be the track circuit boundary for CV - CN. The next rail join is upto which CV apparently maintained the track. The track to the South of it is well anchored and has longer ties. North of there the track is stick rail with one set of anchors adjacent to each rail joint.

@Railvt I am surmising that this railroad crossing that you were at while taking those photos is just north of the border where Chem. Wolf Ridge (as identified in Google Maps) crosses the railroad.

The CN ine used to reach the uS borderr splits at Cantic. The Rouses Point line used by the ADIRONDACK heads west (and slightly southh) there to reach the CPKC junction at Rouses Point. The "mainline" goes east over the Richelieu River and a bit south to cross the border at East Alburgh, VT. From there it continues to St. Albans. The freighht goes that way, as e\we hope eventually will the VERMONTER.

While CN crews operate the freight all the way to the Italy Yards in St Albans the line becomes the New England Central RR at the border. But in general the NECR runs its own freights only as far north of St. Albans as Swanton, VT. Historically CN crews handled the MONTREALER north of St. Albans as well--but all current plans focus on Amtrak crews. But there may be hours in service issues if the current Amtrak VERMONTER is served by the current crew all the way. At a minimum some schedule change is likely.