Adirondack June '23 cancellation, and September restoration, state of Upstate NY service

[Amtrak25]

Through Sep 10 to Montreal.
Through Jul 23 to Saratoga Springs

No one who has been following this should be surprised. I made alternative arrangements on Adirondack Trailways for north of Albany last week for late July as well as moved my initial hotel stay to be closer to the bus terminal than the train station.

Smartphone App has notification. But nothing by e-mail or phone-mail as of yet. Buyer beware.

 

[JoeBas]

Yeah, it's their ball and their bat. They can take it and go home, which they did.

It is indeed. However, perchance they should be reminded that they like to do their business in the US, and we have balls and bats too.

I mean, it'd be a real shame if some track inspection discovered a need for better signal infrastructure on the route of the CONO for them to have the capability to operate light engines with active crossing protection. All in the name of safety, of course...

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Through Sep 10 to Montreal.
Through Jul 23 to Saratoga Springs

No one who has been following this should be surprised. I made alternative arrangements on Adirondack Trailways for north of Albany last week for late July as well as moved my initial hotel stay to be closer to the bus terminal than the train station.

Smartphone App has notification. But nothing by e-mail or phone-mail as of yet. Buyer beware.

Would you let us know how Adirondack Trailways works out? I didn’t realize Trailways buses were still around—unless this is a different company with a similar name?

I have friends who live in upstate New York along the Adirondack route so am interested in other transit options there. Thanks.

 

[Amtrak25]

CN holds the cards in the US too. Michigan needs them in the Battle Creek area. Then we have axle count requirements to Carbondale and unlike other axle count areas on UP and BNSF, only bi-level cars can contribute toward it.

Best thing we can do in Canada is reroute and get off from them ASAP.

Would you let us know how Adirondack Trailways works out? I didn’t realize Trailways buses were still around—unless this is a different company with a similar name?

Trailways is a franchise with many member bus companies, 3 of which are in upstate NY under Trailways of New York conglomerate.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Trailways is a franchise with many member bus companies, 3 of which are in upstate NY under Trailways of New York conglomerate.

Thank you. That was very helpful. The bus looked clean, and the driver sounded very helpful. I looked up the timetable, and I could see myself using it from, for example, Albany to Glens Falls during the day.

 

[Amtrak25]

Thank you. That was very helpful. The bus looked clean, and the driver sounded very helpful. I looked up the timetable, and I could see myself using it from, for example, Albany to Glens Falls during the day.

Don't be tempted by the lower fares and use Greyhound. For one thing, there is no higher fare option for refundable tickets. They are also very unreliable, turning themselves into Flixbus. I monitored a daytime frequency from Montreal last weekend, first posted as 2 hours late, then cancelled.

Greyhound kicked Trailways out of their Albany terminal last December. Just as well. Trailways moved to a vacant lot up the street at 66 Green Street. There's a Holiday Inn Express right next to the Greyhound terminal. Recent Google reviews of that hotel have gone down to one star over the last month. Greyhound and that Holiday Inn is the place for Albany-based asylum seekers. There are half dozen security guards at the hotel, groups of people making a lot of noise late at night, their breakfast is gone, garbage bags laying around the elevator, tobacco smoke scents, pool has been closed, guests are afraid to leave their rooms.

Trailways terminal lies just north of all this. The CDTA 114 & 214 buses runs there from Amtrak.

 

[JoeBas]

CN holds the cards in the US too. Michigan needs them in the Battle Creek area. Then we have axle count requirements to Carbondale and unlike other axle count areas on UP and BNSF, only bi-level cars can contribute toward it.

Best thing we can do in Canada is reroute and get off from them ASAP.

The whole reason for the axel count cars to Carbondale is because their grade crossing signals won't trigger. Talk about treating the symptom and not the disease...

 

[Fenway]

https://montrealgazette.com/busines...r-suspension-of-daily-montreal-new-york-train

“We have recently seen an inconsistent application of CN’s historical heat order policy, and are concerned that if we continue to operate trains, there’s potential our customers could be stranded in place or add 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 hours of delays during their trip,” Jason Abrams, a spokesperson for Amtrak in New York, said Thursday via email.

In the meantime, Amtrak is “continuing our conversations with CN and exploring all possible solutions with New York state, and look forward to resuming Adirondack service north of Albany,” Abrams added, without offering a target date.

CN has a different point of view.

Amtrak “is responsible and has failed to pay for the maintenance required to keep the track at a level that accommodates its service,” Abecassis said. “If Amtrak agrees to make that investment, CN could upgrade the track to a level that would reduce heat restrictions.”

Asked for a reaction to those comments, Abrams said Amtrak “has been fulfilling all of its financial commitments and obligations” specified by its agreement with CN — including payments of $3.2 million to the Canadian railroad since the Canada-U.S. border reopened to help prepare for resumed Adirondack service.

 

[zephyr17]

Honestly, that looks like spin from both sides. Amtrak/NYS have to pay CN for access. That probably did not include upgrade of the tracks back to the condition they were pre-COVID, as evidenced by the longer running times. Yes, Amtrak paid what it agreed to with CN. CN likely quoted a higher figure for higher track maintenance and Amtrak/NYS refused. Someone dropped (Amtrak) or hid (CN) the ball about the consequences in just moderately hot weather, possibly both.

I still contend that this is not going to have a quick resolution if a resolution is even reached. I think the chances of the Adirondack being suspended indefinitely (see the Sunset East) or cancelled are uncomfortably high.

Fortunately, NYS and its governor have far more reasonable attitude towards public transit than MS, AL, and FL (plus the Adirondack is state-funded), so there will be more pressure to restore it than there was for the Sunset East.

Although CN in Canada, where the problem is, is largely immune to such pressure since they are not under the statutory regimen that applies to railroads hosting Amtrak in the US. New York and Amtrak also may find it difficult get grants to be able to spend in Canada to fund necessary capital improvements in excess of direct operational expenses. New York may be willing, but Quebec and the Canadian Federal government are at least as disinterested in the Adirondack as Mississippi, Alabama and Florida were in the Sunset. The most straightforward method of funding improvements would be for Canadian entities to step up and help fund improvements in Canada for the service as New York has in the US. But they are very clearly on the sidelines.

I agree the problems the Adirondack faces are somewhat different from those on the Sunset East, but they may well prove equally insurmountable.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Fortunately, NYS and its governor have far more reasonable attitude towards public transit than MS, AL, and FL (plus the Adirondack is state-funded), so there will be more pressure to restore it than there was for the Sunset East.

According to a post on Train orders ( can't verify its Validity???)the Adirondack to Montreal is Cancelled till September, and will only run between NYP and Saratoga during the Racing Season there!

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Don't be tempted by the lower fares and use Greyhound. For one thing, there is no higher fare option for refundable tickets. They are also very unreliable, turning themselves into Flixbus. I monitored a daytime frequency from Montreal last weekend, first posted as 2 hours late, then cancelled.

Greyhound kicked Trailways out of their Albany terminal last December. Just as well. Trailways moved to a vacant lot up the street at 66 Green Street. There's a Holiday Inn Express right next to the Greyhound terminal. Recent Google reviews of that hotel have gone down to one star over the last month. Greyhound and that Holiday Inn is the place for Albany-based asylum seekers. There are half dozen security guards at the hotel, groups of people making a lot of noise late at night, their breakfast is gone, garbage bags laying around the elevator, tobacco smoke scents, pool has been closed, guests are afraid to leave their rooms.

Trailways terminal lies just north of all this. The CDTA 114 & 214 buses runs there from Amtrak.

No argument from me! When I go to Albany, I take the Ethan Allen and stay at the Hilton (with points if the rates are high).

When I was growing up, we had Trailways and Greyhound, and Trailways was considered better. Then they seemed to disappear—perhaps bought out by Greyhound—which is why I was delighted to hear they’ve come back.

Back to the main topic —it seems we have two Adirondack uses: basic transportation for people in upstate New York, and a scenic ride along Lake Champlain that National Geographic called one of the 10 most scenic train rides in the world.

One possibility is to use the bus for basic transportation—the Trailways one seems reliable and clean and has more than one departure time a day—and for the people who want a scenic ride along Lake Champlain, how about—instead of trying a daily train—doing something like the Autumn Express in (I think) West Virginia.

Run it in the fall as far as Plattsburgh, with an overnight there, then a return trip the next day, with people still able to get on or off at the stops they have now. I did it in the fall from FED to Plattsburgh and back a couple of days later, and I could not stop looking at the gorgeous scenery. I think it’s a route that would be a popular vacation option for people — just like the tourist boats that go out on the lakes up there.

Yes there are a lot of logistics to deal with, but why not work on them instead of sitting around wringing our hands at how the Adirondack may never come back?

 

[Amtrak25]

Amtrak is in the intercity transportation business, not the sightseeing tour business. Most people heading north of the Capital District are going to Montreal. They are not going to ride a bus, especially overnight.

There are alternatives to bringing the Adirondack back (run overnight, reroute on the CP). CN and Amtrak are too busy pointing fingers. Amtrak knew of the deteriorating circumstances for 4 years, did nothing, and said nothing. State DOT seems to be nothing more than a bunch of bookkeepers.

Greyhound ate Continental Trailways 40 years ago. Nothing happened to the rest of them, some have grown, others have collapsed on their own, like Capitol Trailways in Pennsylvania.

The buses don't do a great job serving the North Country. Saratoga, Glens Falls, and Plattbsurgh are it, and most of them are bypassed on the overnight buses.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Yes, you’re absolutely right about Amtrak being transportation and not sightseeing.

I wasn’t clear—I meant see if a private company would be interested in doing a few excursions a year.

 

[Amtrak25]

Yes, you’re absolutely right about Amtrak being transportation and not sightseeing.

I wasn’t clear—I meant see if a private company would be interested in doing a few excursions a year.

Once in a while, someone puts PV's on the Adirondack. But Amtrak is not the Alaska Railroad. Look at Amtrak's attitude, ongoing since Anderson, in restrictions, costs, and procedures in hauling PV's around.

 

[west point]

Time for Amtrak to have Trailways operate dedicated thruway bus(es) connecting at Albany station both ways up and back. Set up number of buses based on confirmed reservations at say 2000 night before. Any reservations after only to fill bus. Mabe Plattsburgh when it is operating? Here I am grinding my teeth and using bad words.
EDIT: New York state could purchase a very nice fleet of buses.

 

[zephyr17]

Time for Amtrak to have Trailways operate dedicated thruway bus(es) connecting at Albany station both ways up and back. Set up number of buses based on confirmed reservations at say 2000 night before. Any reservations after only to fill bus. Mabe Plattsburgh when it is operating? Here I am grinding my teeth and using bad words.
EDIT: New York state could purchase a very nice fleet of buses.

That would be up to New York State, not Amtrak.

I am also unsure of regulatory situation of setting up competing State supported bus services to independent bus companies in New York. Many states have limits on that.

 

[MARC Rider]

It seems to me that terminating the train in either Saratoga Springs or Plattsburgh and running a Thruway bus to Montreal is the way to go until this gets resolved.

 

[blueman271]

Why couldn’t NYS and Amtrak do what was done with the International back in 04? Cancel the international portion, rename the train, and make its terminus Rouses Point or Plattsburgh?

 

[John Bredin]

Why couldn’t NYS and Amtrak do what was done with the International back in 04? Cancel the international portion, rename the train, and make its terminus Rouses Point or Plattsburgh?

It would be nice, but if NY State DOT was inclined to run a strictly intrastate service like Michigan and the Blue Water, it wouldn't have waited over two years to restore the Adirondack north of Albany. Ironic considering the name of the train, but there we are. The thing that would change that, IMO, is political pressure from NY State residents to NY State elected officials to in turn pressure or command NYSDOT to run an intrastate Adirondack.

 

[fdaley]

It seems to me that terminating the train in either Saratoga Springs or Plattsburgh and running a Thruway bus to Montreal is the way to go until this gets resolved.

I remember one trip on the Adirondack about 1990 when we were bused from Montreal to Plattsburgh, then transferred to the previous day's northbound, which for some reason had terminated there. So it is possible. Of course the equipment then was a Turboliner, so it was easy to reverse direction. But the Ethan Allen now runs with a locomotive at each end to reverse direction, so the Adirondack could too.

Plattsburgh-Montreal would be a tolerable bus ride, actually considerably faster than the train, and would still keep the train running on the most scenic portion of its route. Busing all the way from Saratoga Springs seems much longer, misses the best part of the train ride and is probably not any faster than busing right from Albany.

 

[jis]

I looked at the 2019 number of riders in Amtrak's State Fact Sheet for New York State. Interestingly Saratoga Springs with two trains serving it had 41611 riders, while all stations North of Saratoga except Montreal and on the Adirondack had 35,685 riders.

Maybe the Adirondack should be operated as an Albany - Plattsburgh service with cross platform connection from Empire Service train from/to New York at Albany using FRA compliant Stadler FLIRT. Similar equipment can be deployed on the Southern Tier too if NY State really cared about running a credible upstate passenger rail service, which unfortunately from all indications suggests that they really don't.

 

[demonizedwater]

Run to at least Plattsburgh, then bus. Don't bustitute from Saratoga or Albany. The more of the route is bustituted, the worse precedent is set for future return of full service.

Or just use the old rail routing to Lucien l'Allier.

 

[railiner]

When I was growing up, we had Trailways and Greyhound, and Trailways was considered better. Then they seemed to disappear—perhaps bought out by Greyhound—which is why I was delighted to hear they’ve come back.

As what was explained by others, Greyhound purchased Continental Trailways, which was one large company that wholly owned several former independent companies, but there were several other independent companies that were also members of the Trailways association, that remained independent.

Three of those companies were owned by the same family, under the Trailways of New York banner, Adirondack, Pine Hill, and New York Trailways. In the late1990’s, Adirondack and New York Trailways entered a revenue sharing agreement with Greyhound, (as did other independent’s like Peter Pan), coordinating schedules and stations, and in some cases operating interline trips with pooled equipment.
It worked fairly well for a time, but in recent years, due to a difference in philosophy, to put it diplomatically, the independent’s and Greyhound had a “parting of the ways”.
So Adirondack never really went away, but they are now free to conduct business to their own standards…

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

As what was explained by others, Greyhound purchased Continental Trailways, which was one large company that wholly owned several former independent companies, but there were several other independent companies that were also members of the Trailways association, that remained independent.

Three of those companies were owned by the same family, under the Trailways of New York banner, Adirondack, Pine Hill, and New York Trailways. In the late1990’s, Adirondack and New York Trailways entered a revenue sharing agreement with Greyhound, (as did other independent’s like Peter Pan), coordinating schedules and stations, and in some cases operating interline trips with pooled equipment.
It worked fairly well for a time, but in recent years, due to a difference in philosophy, to put it diplomatically, the independent’s and Greyhound had a “parting of the ways”.
So Adirondack never really went away, but they are now free to conduct business to their own standards…

Thank you! An excellent and very clear explanation!

 

[Amtrak25]

It is clear that neither Amtrak nor DOT are much interested in any service north of Albany if they cannot get to Montreal because even Saratoga Springs does not seem worth their while unless and until it is racing season, July 27th.

Fort Edward - Westport patronage does not amount to much.
There is no point in NYS buying DMU's for a Plattsburgh shuttle. That money would be better spent on fixing CN's track or rerouting on CP to go after the Montreal business.

Trailways' Montreal buses won't serve the Amtrak Rennselaer station. Why would they want to surrender their NYC - Albany passengers and revenue on Plattsburgh and Montreal itineraries to Amtrak.

As what was explained by others, Greyhound purchased Continental Trailways, which was one large company that wholly owned several former independent companies, but there were several other independent companies that were also members of the Trailways association, that remained independent.

This contains the long current list of Trailways companies:
https://trailways.com/our-carriers/
Continental Trailways was itself a group of companies. Edwards Motor Transit in Williamsport ran the coast-to-coast I-80 route east of Cleveland, though owned a maintenance facility in Omaha. Safeway Trails ran the I-95 route. Certificate lettering was on the bottom flanks of the buses. Companies like Fullington Autobus (Fullington Trailways), Capitol Trailways (Capitol Bus Company of Penna - out of business) and Carolina Trailways picked up some of the pieces after Greyhound ate it and spit most of it out. The federal regulators allowed the takeover since Continental was about to collapse anyway. New York Trailways bought the remaining assets (several MC-9 buses) from Western New York bus company (Empire Trailways) when they were going out of business.

In any case, let's be grateful that Trailways of New York does not make an issue of state Amtrak subsidies, especially the Adirondack route. The State may also subsidize some of their local runs out of Syracuse like to to Ithaca and Massena, so they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them. Note the Montreal frequencies just added all run overnight, a couple of which don't stop anywhere between Longueuil, PQ and NYC. The only stop they ever make between Plattsburgh and Albany is Glens Falls, which goes to show how weak the North Country market is, and they don't like to waste time getting off the Interstate.