Ryan
Court Jester
Landmarks don’t do a bit of good if you’re not paying attention, which was the real cause of QZ214.
maybe you should provide your expert services to FAA. You might save so many livesMy understand is the airport approach is over water which of course has a lack of landmarks. One of the factors in the crash of 214. The water approach is why it's tricky.What do you feel makes San Francisco airport especially tricky? What lesson do you feel should have been learned by the last crash?
Asiana Airlines 214 that crash. One of the factors was the aircraft was on visual. Several other issues also helped in that crash.
The recurring issues is the aircraft is on visual. If we invented a radio beacon, a radar, or a guy on the ground providing a signal that could tell the pilot that there approached is good. Well then this mess would not happen nor would of Asiana Airline.
Oh wait we have said systems we just don't use them.
Profits above safety. A winning combination.
Well, very often, fatigue is a much bigger factor than almost anything else.Landmarks don’t do a bit of good if you’re not paying attention, which was the real cause of QZ214.
Any competent commercial pilot should be able to manage a visual approach to a major airport with massive lighted runways, a visual glide slope, and active instrument landing system. Yes you're approaching over water, but it's not over the open ocean. There are visual cues all around you night and day. Heavy fog is possible but in that case you'd be following instrument flight rules anyway. The two primary lessons I learned from the OZ 214 crash are that some pilots need better training on how autopilots respond to unusual and contradictory command inputs and that some emergency ground services need to be taught to avoid blindly driving large commercial vehicles into firefighting foam. Watching the footage of the ground services blindly running over the bodies like clueless morons was extremely aggravating to me. If you want SFO to always activate the ALS/LDIN during low light conditions I'd support that proposal.My understand is the airport approach is over water which of course has a lack of landmarks. One of the factors in the crash of 214. The water approach is why it's tricky. Asiana Airlines 214 that crash. One of the factors was the aircraft was on visual. Several other issues also helped in that crash. The recurring issues is the aircraft is on visual. If we invented a radio beacon, a radar, or a guy on the ground providing a signal that could tell the pilot that there approached is good. Well then this mess would not of happened. Oh wait we have said systems we just don't use them. Profits above safety. A winning combination.What do you feel makes San Francisco airport especially tricky? What lesson do you feel should have been learned by the last crash?
We do not lose 1-2 planes out of every 100,000.It seem to maximize the airport capacity we are making trades. Safety vs Profit. By using the visual approach we can land more planes. The lost of one or two out of the hundreds of thousands is worth it.
Was not try to use a exact number just point out that a safety system was not in use. Someone is make a business decision to maximize the aircraft per hour. At some point you have a failure. If the cost worth it?We do not lose 1-2 planes out of every 100,000.It seem to maximize the airport capacity we are making trades. Safety vs Profit. By using the visual approach we can land more planes. The lost of one or two out of the hundreds of thousands is worth it.
The U.S. averages 26,527 passenger flights every day**. By your math, we'd "lose" 1-2 planes every four days. If we increase the number to 900,000, that's still 1-2 planes every 33 days. That's not happening. At all. Anywhere.
** Source: Federal Aviation Administration, 2017 - https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/by_the_numbers/
Then drive, where you're significantly more likely to die in an accident. But as I pointed out above, reducing the capacity of the safest mode of transportation, in the name of safety, just puts more people onto a less-safe mode of transportation.Was not try to use a exact number just point out that a safety system was not in use. Someone is make a business decision to maximize the aircraft per hour. At some point you have a failure. If the cost worth it?We do not lose 1-2 planes out of every 100,000.It seem to maximize the airport capacity we are making trades. Safety vs Profit. By using the visual approach we can land more planes. The lost of one or two out of the hundreds of thousands is worth it.
The U.S. averages 26,527 passenger flights every day**. By your math, we'd "lose" 1-2 planes every four days. If we increase the number to 900,000, that's still 1-2 planes every 33 days. That's not happening. At all. Anywhere.
** Source: Federal Aviation Administration, 2017 - https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/by_the_numbers/
Not to me.
I'm not sure where the needle is located, but the way you described it makes me think of driving on a local interstate late at night.As they approached the taxiway, the needle would move slightly farther away, but by this time they are short final, and the runway/taxiway is easily in view and the pilots are simply fixated on it, probably not noticing how far the needle is off. You might be thinking that how could they not notice the needle being off?! Well it's hard to explain but it's super easy for even the most experienced.
Thank you! That does help.Sarah,
Not a good anology. Imagine a car had two drivers and two steering wheels and two dashboards, and one od the drivers had to monitor what the other was doing when they were steering, including specifically the speedomoter. And nit only that, the speedometer needle changed colors and flashed at you when you were even slighhtly off parameters.
Mercury News said:Federal aviation investigators released stunning video footage and data Wednesday showing the near-disastrous landing of an Air Canada flight at San Francisco International Airport came as close as 5 feet from striking a Philippine Airlines jet lined up on a taxiway last July. The National Transportation Safety Board found the crew felt fatigued during the flight, that the first officer was twice rejected in his application for promotion, and that another pilot landing at SFO that night complained about too-bright construction lights that made it difficult to find the proper runway. Aviation experts have said the close call could have led to one of the worst aviation disasters in history with the fully loaded planes carrying upward of 1,000 passengers and crew.
I don't think attempted landing on a taxiway that has three planes on it is a common occurrence at all.As terrible as this would have been, really it's just an everyday occurrence @ the overcrowded skies around the Major Airports!
Not an every day occurence, but more common than you might think jis,especially among Private Aircraft!I don't think attempted landing on a taxiway that has three planes on it is a common occurrence at all.As terrible as this would have been, really it's just an everyday occurrence @ the overcrowded skies around the Major Airports!
I did not say they don't happen. But they are quite uncommon. Probably more people get injured falling off a ladder by a wide margin than two planes come close enough for it to become a reportable incident. I have a good friend who worked for several years at the Newark Airport Tower. Stories, sure, there are many. But reportable incidents according to him are far fewer than hair raising stories. He claims that it is so because the system works most of the time. when a pilot forgets to deploy his landing gear before landing someone else notices and gets him straightened out before anything bad happens, and similar stuff.Not an every day occurence, but more common than you might think jis,especially among Private Aircraft!I don't think attempted landing on a taxiway that has three planes on it is a common occurrence at all.As terrible as this would have been, really it's just an everyday occurrence @ the overcrowded skies around the Major Airports!
I know of instances where Airliners landed @ the wrong Airport, and even on Highways ( Houston Bush was involved in this when first opened since it was known as "The Black Hole of Calcuta" when planes landed on I45 several times!( my Uncle, the Retired TWA Captain, can tell some real Hair curling stories!)
As someone who has about 8,000 flight hours on a consumer grade but very realistic flight simulator, I will say that if you get too low with gear up, the cockpit gives you a multitude of warnings and alerts that are pretty much impossible to miss. On older retractable gear aircraft, the alerts were often pretty ambiguous and often didnt effectively communicate or specify that the gear was still up. Therefore, it was not uncommon for pilots to misunderstand the alerts, fail to address the problem, and crash land with their landing gear up. So now, airliners have clearer and more specific alerts to make it very clear to pilots that the issue is that landing gear, and from that gear up landings have become for the most part a thing of the past.He claims that it is so because the system works most of the time. when a pilot forgets to deploy his landing gear before landing someone else notices and gets him straightened out before anything bad happens, and similar stuff.Not an every day occurence, but more common than you might think jis,especially among Private Aircraft!I know of instances where Airliners landed @ the wrong Airport, and even on Highways ( Houston Bush was involved in this when first opened since it was known as "The Black Hole of Calcuta" when planes landed on I45 several times!( my Uncle, the Retired TWA Captain, can tell some real Hair curling stories!)I don't think attempted landing on a taxiway that has three planes on it is a common occurrence at all.As terrible as this would have been, really it's just an everyday occurrence @ the overcrowded skies around the Major Airports!
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