Airline Meals - Why Not?

[zephyr17]

I've been lucky enough to fly international business and fly "transcontinental" first class in a three-class flight, which is touted as equivalent to international first. While the meals were good considering how they were prepared, and better than I expected, and were certainly not the mystery entrees that were that hallmark of the old coach meals, not one of them was as good as a mediocre dining car meal. The only dining car meal they beat was the emergency beef stew and rice.

Can you explain what precisely you believe is better about Amtrak dining car food compared to international first class airline food? Because in my experience international first class food vastly exceeds the taste, quality, selection, and preparation of today's Amtrak meals.

Maybe not the meals, which are still reheated, but when I flew first class international there was caviar and Dom Perignon. Those would have been had to screw up.

Some airlines still serve caviar (I'd be happy to give you mine) along with unlimited Dom or Krug on premium routes, but it's becoming rarer over time.

Number one, it is a matter of taste. While the business class airline meals were pretty good, my experience you could very much tell that they were not freshly prepared. Neither one did great with the veggies, but the meat entrees have been consistenly better on Amtrak. As to selection, it was somewhat greater than Amtrak's.

Maybe it was the airline, my miles were all on American and all the flights international business (not first) class flights were on American, as was the JFK-LAX first class on a three-class transcon flight just this past March.

In any case, the American did a good job, but it wasn't particularly impressive. I did the upgrades for the seats, not the food.

The meal while traveling experience that WAS impressive was VIA's Canadian. Beat both American and Amtrak by miles. And maybe my experience on American's JFK-LAX transcon was colored by that, as that was the return leg when the Canadian had been the outbound. I did go out of the way to experience their transcon First, as I routed JFK-LAX-SEA to do it, instead of just going JFK-SEA in regular domestic First. I wanted to be impressed.

 

[jis]

The only train on which VIA produces extraordinary dining fare in Diners is on the Canadian, which is operated primarily as a tourist operation which also incidentally fulfills the role of providing some essential transportation. If an operation is willing to eat the kind of losses that it eats you can do all sorts of things. Indian Railways also operates the various Tourist operations which cost an extraordinary amount and provide food service that far surpasses anything that VIA provides and also provides no transportation service at all. So is it possible to serve incredible meals on trains? Of course! Is it practical as a matter of day to day transportation service? I am not sure. What is necessary is to provided good quality food with some variety and that is where Amtrak is progressively failing and where the airlines are starting to reverse the long downhill trend. However on international first class and business class they never sank to a level below where Amtrak finds itself today. They did sink lower in domestic FC, but have now started recovering quite smartly.

 

[Seaboard92]

I can't remember back to the menu say in 2000 does anyone have the old menus posted anywhere similar to the timetable museum. That way I can better compare the offerings. I'm all for beefing up the dining car. Pardon my pun

 

[zephyr17]

In 2000 the menus at least varied by route and direction, I recall at least that much.

 

[Anderson]

I'll say that I've been pleased with the meals on Virgin America. I wouldn't take them over my steak in the diner, but (quirky menu notwithstanding) they'd be a step up from the cafe and definitely a passable option on a 12-16 hour train ride.

Basically, I suspect that the Western LD trains have to have a diner because of the time involved in the longer trips (CHI-LAX, SEA-LAX, etc.); the eastern trains are a mixed bag (Florida probably needs a diner on at least one train). With that being said, allowing the purchase of a meal like this on some of the longer Regional/day train runs would definitely be a boon (8 hours on the present Amcafe selection? Not fun).

 

[BCL]

I'll say that I've been pleased with the meals on Virgin America. I wouldn't take them over my steak in the diner, but (quirky menu notwithstanding) they'd be a step up from the cafe and definitely a passable option on a 12-16 hour train ride.

Basically, I suspect that the Western LD trains have to have a diner because of the time involved in the longer trips (CHI-LAX, SEA-LAX, etc.); the eastern trains are a mixed bag (Florida probably needs a diner on at least one train). With that being said, allowing the purchase of a meal like this on some of the longer Regional/day train runs would definitely be a boon (8 hours on the present Amcafe selection? Not fun).

Not necessarily. I could imagine multiple cafe cars could suffice to keep people fed - especially if there was more storage capacity. However - I had the dining car Angus burger for lunch and the cafe car version for dinner and it was no contest which was the better one.

I would have liked fries though, although I realize that's not happening on a train.

 

[Eric308]

For reference, Amtrak's eggs for the scrambled eggs and the omelette are actual eggs, no additives; I've checked on this and managed to get information. There's your additional griddle item, on top of the steaks and burgers. I think the sausage also goes on the griddle. Eggs and sausage are significantly simpler to cook than steak, of course.

Having experienced both actual eggs and liquid milk carton egg product on Amtrak Ive come to the conclusion that they probably stock both and then use the milk carton eggs as a backup if they run out or something unfortunate happens to the actual eggs. Once you know what to look for its easy to spot the differences.

I think crabby was just curious as to what airlines provide incredible meals. I was curious as well. Also, I'm not so sure about your ticket price comparison between Amtrak and first class on the airlines. I'm traveling from Chicago to Portland soon with a booked roomette for just over $400. First class airline (Delta) in the same time period is over $800.

In my experience Amtrak sleeping compartments are at least as much if not more expensive than domestic first class flights when comparing identical dates. One thing Ive noticed here on AU is that people who claim otherwise sometimes stack the deck by comparing an early Amtrak purchase with a last minute airline purchase, or by cherry picking dates and locations or by splitting a cheaper round trip airline ticket into multiple one way tickets. Personally I wish Amtrak was cheaper but in my experience thats rarely the case.

I've had a top-5 steak on one of the Silvers before, so a great (perhaps falling short of amazing) meal is possible in the dining car. And railroads like Via prove that non-airline style meals can be amazing from a dining car. It's all in what the company wants to offer.

Ive noticed that as the menu has shrunk over and over again most of the pro-AmChow supporters have been forced circle the wagons around a tiny little steak island surrounded by a sea of precooked frozen trash.

I had to really laugh hard yesterday when United announced the return of "free" low grade snacks in Coach and the media jumped on it like they had just cut fares by 90%. Don't you know William A. Patterson is going 'round and 'round somewhere in his grave!

Just imagine if it was Amtrak announcing free low grade snacks instead of United. Maybe Amtrak would have finally received some widespread positive press for a change. Too bad Boardman had already promised to slash and burn the food and beverage service into perpetual obscurity at the behest of bean counters and fellow party members.

Devils' Advocate...in my case I booked the roomette last Sunday, 12/5 and I'm leaving on 12/12. Total $425...Delta First Class (on 12/5) was almost $800. So, in my case I used identical dates. However, your point is valid in other booking scenarios.

 

[zephyr17]

I would never make the case that sleepers on Amtrak are cheaper than domestic First, at least not any kind of consistent basis. My very unscientific opinion is they are in the same general ballpark. Depending on deals, advance purchase, etc, etc one could be higher than the other in one case, the opposite in another. One thing I will say pretty definitely, because I've done both, Alaska Airlines' advance purchase/non-refundable First class fare from Seattle to Southern California airports is is cheaper than a roomette (for one) even at low bucket.

 

[BCL]

I would never make the case that sleepers on Amtrak are cheaper than domestic First, at least not any kind of consistent basis. My very unscientific opinion is they are in the same general ballpark. Depending on deals, advance purchase, etc, etc one could be higher than the other in one case, the opposite in another. One thing I will say pretty definitely, because I've done both, Alaska Airlines' advance purchase/non-refundable First class fare from Seattle to Southern California airports is is cheaper than a roomette (for one) even at low bucket.

When I've flown they typically had an offer for $50 to upgrade to first class from whatever economy ticket I had. It wasn't bad considering it came with two pieces of checked in luggage ($25 each), a bigger seat, and meals/snacks/alcohol.

 

[Eric308]

I would never make the case that sleepers on Amtrak are cheaper than domestic First, at least not any kind of consistent basis. My very unscientific opinion is they are in the same general ballpark. Depending on deals, advance purchase, etc, etc one could be higher than the other in one case, the opposite in another. One thing I will say pretty definitely, because I've done both, Alaska Airlines' advance purchase/non-refundable First class fare from Seattle to Southern California airports is is cheaper than a roomette (for one) even at low bucket.

When I've flown they typically had an offer for $50 to upgrade to first class from whatever economy ticket I had. It wasn't bad considering it came with two pieces of checked in luggage ($25 each), a bigger seat, and meals/snacks/alcohol.

Is that with all the airlines you've flown with? I'd jump all over that every time. That's even less than the upgrade to "Delta Comfort" from economy. The "comfort" is about 2 extra inches of legroom and maybe an inch wider seat? Not even sure of that. You do get gratis alcohol.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I would never make the case that sleepers on Amtrak are cheaper than domestic First, at least not any kind of consistent basis. My very unscientific opinion is they are in the same general ballpark. Depending on deals, advance purchase, etc, etc one could be higher than the other in one case, the opposite in another. One thing I will say pretty definitely, because I've done both, Alaska Airlines' advance purchase/non-refundable First class fare from Seattle to Southern California airports is is cheaper than a roomette (for one) even at low bucket.

When I've flown they typically had an offer for $50 to upgrade to first class from whatever economy ticket I had. It wasn't bad considering it came with two pieces of checked in luggage ($25 each), a bigger seat, and meals/snacks/alcohol.

Is that with all the airlines you've flown with? I'd jump all over that every time. That's even less than the upgrade to "Delta Comfort" from economy. The "comfort" is about 2 extra inches of legroom and maybe an inch wider seat? Not even sure of that. You do get gratis alcohol.

Never saw a $50 upgrade to first or business on Air Asia, Air Canada, America West, American Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Cebu Pacific, Chautauqua Airlines, Colgan Air, Continental Airlines, Delta Airlines, Dragonair, EasyJet, ExpressJet, Frontier Airlines, Jalways, Japan Airlines, Deutsche Lufthansa, Mesa Airlines, Northwest Airlines, Philippine Airlines, Republic Airlines, Shuttle America, Singapore Airlines, SkyWest Airlines, Southwest Airlines, Ted, Thai Air Asia, Thai Airways, United Airlines, or US Airways.

Must be exclusive to Washington Alaska Airlines, but I'd probably take it in a heartbeat, mainly for the legroom but also to stick it to the DYKWIA non-revs.

 

[BCL]

I would never make the case that sleepers on Amtrak are cheaper than domestic First, at least not any kind of consistent basis. My very unscientific opinion is they are in the same general ballpark. Depending on deals, advance purchase, etc, etc one could be higher than the other in one case, the opposite in another. One thing I will say pretty definitely, because I've done both, Alaska Airlines' advance purchase/non-refundable First class fare from Seattle to Southern California airports is is cheaper than a roomette (for one) even at low bucket.

When I've flown they typically had an offer for $50 to upgrade to first class from whatever economy ticket I had. It wasn't bad considering it came with two pieces of checked in luggage ($25 each), a bigger seat, and meals/snacks/alcohol.

Is that with all the airlines you've flown with? I'd jump all over that every time. That's even less than the upgrade to "Delta Comfort" from economy. The "comfort" is about 2 extra inches of legroom and maybe an inch wider seat? Not even sure of that. You do get gratis alcohol.

Alaska Airlines was mentioned, and that optional upgrade was offered at online checkin time by them. Of course there isn't always availability. They would prefer to sell them at a higher premium before trying to extract $50. The price of the upgrade depends on the length of the flight - from $50 to $200. I was going Oakland to Seattle, which is listed as 683 miles, which is well under their 1,250 mile max for a $50 uncharge to first class.

https://www.alaskaair.com/content/mileage-plan/earn-use-miles/first-class-upgrades.aspx

Never saw a $50 upgrade to first or business on Air Asia, Air Canada, America West, American Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Cebu Pacific, Chautauqua Airlines, Colgan Air, Continental Airlines, Delta Airlines, Dragonair, EasyJet, ExpressJet, Frontier Airlines, Jalways, Japan Airlines, Deutsche Lufthansa, Mesa Airlines, Northwest Airlines, Philippine Airlines, Republic Airlines, Shuttle America, Singapore Airlines, SkyWest Airlines, Southwest Airlines, Ted, Thai Air Asia, Thai Airways, United Airlines, or US Airways.

Must be exclusive to Washington Alaska Airlines, but I'd probably take it in a heartbeat, mainly for the legroom but also to stick it to the DYKWIA non-revs.

Apparently Delta used to offer first class upgrades at checkin time. Other airlines might have chosen passengers randomly for an offer to upgrade. This article was from 2005:

http://www.smartertravel.com/travel-advice/better-seat-Upgrade-from.html?id=13366

When flying a major U.S. carrier, your best chance of getting a cheap upgrade is by flying Delta. On the day of departure, Delta offers standby upgrades that allow passengers to upgrade at the departure gate for as little as $50 if your flight has extra room in the forward cabin. Upgrades are available to both members and non-members of Delta's SkyMiles frequent flyer program, and are only offered on domestic and Caribbean routes. (Upgrades are not available on fares in the L, T, and U range, however, which are the most deeply discounted.)

 

[jebr]

Sun Country does something similar, though the prices range from $89 to $189.

 

[zephyr17]

I would never make the case that sleepers on Amtrak are cheaper than domestic First, at least not any kind of consistent basis. My very unscientific opinion is they are in the same general ballpark. Depending on deals, advance purchase, etc, etc one could be higher than the other in one case, the opposite in another. One thing I will say pretty definitely, because I've done both, Alaska Airlines' advance purchase/non-refundable First class fare from Seattle to Southern California airports is is cheaper than a roomette (for one) even at low bucket.

When I've flown they typically had an offer for $50 to upgrade to first class from whatever economy ticket I had. It wasn't bad considering it came with two pieces of checked in luggage ($25 each), a bigger seat, and meals/snacks/alcohol.

I've used it, too. But was I was talking about was being ticketed into First class from the start on a restricted, non-refunable fare, not an upgrade at check-in. Alaska is the only airline that I've noticed that they offer discounted, advance purchase, First class fares.

Availability of those $50 upgrades seems to have gotten few and far between.

 

[jis]

United offers upgrade at checkin - both cash as well as cash and points sometimes. I have used them many times on international flights. Domestic more often than not I just get comp upgrades.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

United offers upgrade at checkin - both cash as well as cash and points sometimes. I have used them many times on international flights. Domestic more often than not I just get comp upgrades.

Oddly enough many United Airlines airport counters no longer take actual cash regardless of the currency. I've seen many airlines offer last minute purchasable upgrades to Premium Economy, Business, and even First Class, including on United Airlines. What I've never once seen is an upgrade to First or Business Class for fifty dollars. I'm not saying it's never happened; I'm just saying I've never seen such a thing.

 

[jis]

Yeah I have never seen $50 upgrade. And true they only take cards now for money. No cash anywhere AFAIK. You can get some pretty good points only upgrades too if you strike lucky. Careful selection of flights at unpopular times of course increases the chances of all kinds of upgrade whether it be comp, points, money or money and points.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

The last time I saw an upgrade to First for $50 was on Reno Air, where you could actually upgrade per segment for $25. But, of course, that was many years ago.

 

[jis]

Actually I have not been tracking what United asks for domestic upgrades in money. I do those mostly on international and on those I don't believe there is anything below $500 and is usually more in the vicinity of a thousand or more.

 

[BCL]

The last time I saw an upgrade to First for $50 was on Reno Air, where you could actually upgrade per segment for $25. But, of course, that was many years ago.

Ah Reno Air. I remember flying them to Las Vegas because Southwest was too expensive for my employer. Then there was the kicker that my return flight to San Jose was through Reno. I think I took a quick exit and got back on the plane, and there were slots at the terminal, although nothing like in Vegas.

I guess the closest I've come to that was on Hawaiian Airlines inter island on Boeing 717s with the 2+3 layout.

 

[cirdan]

When I'm flying on my own dollar I'm always in economy, but I have flown Business on my employer's dollar.

The food there is quite Ok, although mileages may vary by airline or even by the dedication of the cabin crew.

On an airline you need a certain number of crew anyway, especially for safety reaons. Normally they are busy during certain times of the flight but otherwise have little to do. This makes it easy to give them additional tasks during lull times and thus airline catering can be done on the cheap because the personell costs attached are being piggypacked by another cost center.

On a train you would still need dedicated staff for the catering and the cost would thus be higher and maybe the same as they are at present.

 

[Anderson]

Good point on the fact that, for example, FAs have to be there regardless of whether there's OBS. The closest conceptual example would be an Assistant Conductor manning the cafe. For example, on VX I believe that you wind up with at most a single "extra" FA for on-board services vis-a-vis what you'd get if there were no OBS.

 

[BCL]

Or it could be like USAF VIP aircraft flight attendants. Apparently they have security protocol where the food must be prepared by the on-board staff. Also, all onboard staff require a clearance level to serve the President, even if it's on a corporate style jet, which could serve as Air Force One if needed.

http://archive.airforcetimes.com/article/20120209/NEWS/202090309/Air-Force-preps-flight-attendants-VIP-trips

 

[jis]

The FAA requirement is one cabin crew per 50 passengers on planes with more than 100 seats (FARS Part 121 Section 391) So typically a 737 requires 4 cabin crew to satisfy FAA and depending on the load and how much OBS needs to be provided they carry anywhere between 4 and 6, naturally with the heavy OBS case carrying 5 or 6 or 25% to 50% more than required by FAA. This is on short haul.

On wide body intercontinentals heavy with first and business class it gets more interesting. A 777 per FAA typically requires 6, but that many or more may be required just to serve the first and business class sections. Like trains OBS costs are higher on longer flights, but the fares also can be spectacularly higher to support such.

For ULH flights usually upto two complete sets of crew are carried on board with one crew working a shift while the other rests.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Which raises the question: Why can Airline Crews " rest" on LH Flights and Amtrak Crews can't?

I don't mean why is it a rule, I mean why does this not compute? Don't most people sleep much better in a Train Sleeper than on a plane?