Amtrak and the Cardinal

[amtrak51]

To me Amtrak has treated the cardinal like a leftover long distance train. Giving it poor standards, even for Amtrak. Keeping it limping along with poor food, equipment, and schedules. Yet over the past year I have seen Amtrak making improvements, has anyone else noticed this? For starters remember back around 05 when Amtrak would micro-wave French toast on those tiny "marble" colored plastic plates in that horizon dinette. Now the menu seem to resemble that of the standard Amtrak dining car (so do the plates and silverware) and it is severed in a diner-lounge. Amtrak also seems to be adding (and selling seats in) 2 horizon cars behind the sleeper on the IND-CHI segment. Still Amtrak keeps the Cardinal running 3-days a week. To add insult to injury Amtrak out of no were changed the 51's schedule to include a 2 hour stopover in IND making it a 10 hour ride from CIN to CHI (compared to 5 hours in a car) dropping 2007 ridership from 14,000 to 13,000 in Cincinnati (now the cardinal stops a 3am and 1am in CIN a city of over 1 million people not counting suburbs). Amtrak also keeps the cardinal as the only LD train with no baggage car.

Does any one know if more "improvements" are coming and/or whats up with those "mysterious" horizon coaches behind the Cardinal's sleeper?

 

[access bob]

To me Amtrak has treated the cardinal like a leftover long distance train. Giving it poor standards, even for Amtrak. Keeping it limping along with poor food, equipment, and schedules. Yet over the past year I have seen Amtrak making improvements, has anyone else noticed this? For starters remember back around 05 when Amtrak would micro-wave French toast on those tiny "marble" colored plastic plates in that horizon dinette. Now the menu seem to resemble that of the standard Amtrak dining car (so do the plates and silverware) and it is severed in a diner-lounge. Amtrak also seems to be adding (and selling seats in) 2 horizon cars behind the sleeper on the IND-CHI segment. Still Amtrak keeps the Cardinal running 3-days a week. To add insult to injury Amtrak out of no were changed the 51's schedule to include a 2 hour stopover in IND making it a 10 hour ride from CIN to CHI (compared to 5 hours in a car) dropping 2007 ridership from 14,000 to 13,000 in Cincinnati (now the cardinal stops a 3am and 1am in CIN a city of over 1 million people not counting suburbs). Amtrak also keeps the cardinal as the only LD train with no baggage car.
Does any one know if more "improvements" are coming and/or whats up with those "mysterious" horizon coaches behind the Cardinal's sleeper?

probably the only real reason the Cardinal still runs is the fact that it serves as a "Hospital train" to and from Beech Grove shops..

the extra cars to IND were pretty full last week when I rode the Cardinal, maybe the extra time is to try to get the train back on time, I arrived in Baltimore only 13 hours late from Chicago. (thank CSX)

Bob

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

probably the only real reason the Cardinal still runs is the fact that it serves as a "Hospital train" to and from Beech Grove shops..

That sounds to me like it might be a better description of the Hoosier State than the Cardinal.

 

[MrFSS]

Probably the only real reason the Cardinal still runs is the fact that it serves as a "Hospital train" to and from Beech Grove shops..

The reason it runs is Congress passed a law some years back that says, in so many words, that as long as Amtrak runs, The Cardinal runs.

 

[access bob]

probably the only real reason the Cardinal still runs is the fact that it serves as a "Hospital train" to and from Beech Grove shops..

That sounds to me like it might be a better description of the Hoosier State than the Cardinal.

they haul cars in both directions, just a lot more from Chicago. but it transports all the "silver service" cars to Beech Grove too.

Bob

 

[access bob]

Probably the only real reason the Cardinal still runs is the fact that it serves as a "Hospital train" to and from Beech Grove shops..

The reason it runs is Congress passed a law some years back that says, in so many words, that as long as Amtrak runs, The Cardinal runs.

I thought I knew what was in most of the Amtrak legislation but maybe I missed this, what law was that in.????

Bob

 

[the_traveler]

Probably the only real reason the Cardinal still runs is the fact that it serves as a "Hospital train" to and from Beech Grove shops..

The reason it runs is Congress passed a law some years back that says, in so many words, that as long as Amtrak runs, The Cardinal runs.

I thought I knew what was in most of the Amtrak legislation but maybe I missed this, what law was that in.????

I think it was something written in the 80's by Sen. Robert Byrd - for Amtrak to receive ANY federal funds, it must serve HIS state (of WV)! So to meet the law, the Cardinal runs 3 days a week, with the very minimum!

 

[AlanB]

Probably the only real reason the Cardinal still runs is the fact that it serves as a "Hospital train" to and from Beech Grove shops..

The reason it runs is Congress passed a law some years back that says, in so many words, that as long as Amtrak runs, The Cardinal runs.

I thought I knew what was in most of the Amtrak legislation but maybe I missed this, what law was that in.????

I think it was something written in the 80's by Sen. Robert Byrd - for Amtrak to receive ANY federal funds, it must serve HIS state (of WV)! So to meet the law, the Cardinal runs 3 days a week, with the very minimum!

We just had another recent discussion on this very topic. There was indeed a law passed by Senator Byrd that required Amtrak to run the Cardinal many years ago. IIRC we were unable to find proof positive that the law is still in effect, so it's anyone's guess right now.

 

[Rafi]

I think it was something written in the 80's by Sen. Robert Byrd - for Amtrak to receive ANY federal funds, it must serve HIS state (of WV)! So to meet the law, the Cardinal runs 3 days a week, with the very minimum!

Just to chime in...

IIRC, the provision indicated that Amtrak had to serve key cities along the Cardinal route. Just requiring WV in general would be satisfied by the Capitol Limited which makes two stops: Harpers Ferry and Martinsburg.

And to be fair, Amtrak in recent years has exhibited some desire to find ways of throwing the Cardinal some bones. Not long after it went single level, it lost the diner, of course and ran with just a Dinette, and for a month or so was actually running without a sleeper at all and just with an Amfleet Cafe when there was a Viewliner crunch. Since then they've moved the Viewliner to the back to lessen the horn noise for First Class pax, added the Diner-Lounge which was a clear step-up from the Dinette, and we've all heard the rumors of them trying to figure a way for getting the Superliners back on there without impacting the thru-passengers from the NEC too much (which added a good chunk of new riders when they went single level). I keep bugging them to put the Great Dome on the train (WAS-CHI) for peak viewing seasons in the New River Gorge. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

-Rafi

 

[access bob]

Probably the only real reason the Cardinal still runs is the fact that it serves as a "Hospital train" to and from Beech Grove shops..

The reason it runs is Congress passed a law some years back that says, in so many words, that as long as Amtrak runs, The Cardinal runs.

I thought I knew what was in most of the Amtrak legislation but maybe I missed this, what law was that in.????

I think it was something written in the 80's by Sen. Robert Byrd - for Amtrak to receive ANY federal funds, it must serve HIS state (of WV)! So to meet the law, the Cardinal runs 3 days a week, with the very minimum!

We just had another recent discussion on this very topic. There was indeed a law passed by Senator Byrd that required Amtrak to run the Cardinal many years ago. IIRC we were unable to find proof positive that the law is still in effect, so it's anyone's guess right now.

I thought that was an "understanding" with Harley Staggers and died with him

Bob

 

[Long Train Runnin']

To me Amtrak has treated the cardinal like a leftover long distance train. Giving it poor standards, even for Amtrak. Keeping it limping along with poor food, equipment, and schedules. Yet over the past year I have seen Amtrak making improvements, has anyone else noticed this? For starters remember back around 05 when Amtrak would micro-wave French toast on those tiny "marble" colored plastic plates in that horizon dinette. Now the menu seem to resemble that of the standard Amtrak dining car (so do the plates and silverware) and it is severed in a diner-lounge. Amtrak also seems to be adding (and selling seats in) 2 horizon cars behind the sleeper on the IND-CHI segment. Still Amtrak keeps the Cardinal running 3-days a week. To add insult to injury Amtrak out of no were changed the 51's schedule to include a 2 hour stopover in IND making it a 10 hour ride from CIN to CHI (compared to 5 hours in a car) dropping 2007 ridership from 14,000 to 13,000 in Cincinnati (now the cardinal stops a 3am and 1am in CIN a city of over 1 million people not counting suburbs). Amtrak also keeps the cardinal as the only LD train with no baggage car.
Does any one know if more "improvements" are coming and/or whats up with those "mysterious" horizon coaches behind the Cardinal's sleeper?

Im not sure what was answered in the rest of the thread but i rode the Cardinal a few months ago and I didnt think it was that bad. The new Diner-Lite/lounge were ok but certainly do able. The cars that are added in Indy are extra cars since on the days the cardinal doesnt run there is the Hoosier State that goes from Indy to Chi Just my two cents

 

[jphjaxfl]

[i thought that was an "understanding" with Harley Staggers and died with him

Bob]

The Cardinal was actually discontinued for a brief period in the 1980s. It was then that Senator Byrd included legislation tacked on to another bill that required restoration of service along the Cardinal route. At one time West Virginia had two other long distance trains crossing the state which were the effort of Congressman Staggers. They were the West Virginian on the former B&O route from Washington to Cincinnati and the Mountaineer which later became the Hilltopper on the former N&W route from Norfolk (Mountaineer) to Petersburg (Hilltopper) to Lynchburg, Roanoke, Bluefield, Williamson to Cattletsburg, KY where they connected with the Cardinal route.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The Hilltopper went from New York to Washington as 66/67 with a sleeper, cut off the sleeper, and continued to Petersburg, Roanoke, and ultimately the grandiosely named "Tri-State Station" in Cattlettsburg, KY. It was the infamous "Train To Nowhere". In many ways, it was the perfect train to back up any criticisms of Amtrak. Indeed, it was indicative of everything that was wrong with Amtrak in its early years.

It was politically motivated, as was the Mountaineer. It served no major population bases after its leaving Washington. It provided a Washington connection to the Cardinal, sure- except the Cardinal already went through Washington. It served a few towns that the Cardinal didn't, but in general most of them were near enough to the Cardinal's stations that they could easily serve most or all the people who would have taken the Cardinal.

Now, I am all in favour of more trains, but I think they should be more spread out. People talk about a second frequency for, say, the Southwest Chief. I disagree with these people. I think Amtrak should first create a broad, spread out network that eliminates various empty areas before we create distinct second frequencies on various routes. BTW: the Southwest/Super Chief/Limited route was briefly served by a second frequency, the Chief, in 1972.

Rather, I think we should have several different trains passing through the same population bases. For example, the California Zephyr could be supplemented by a "City of San Francisco, a "San Francisco Chief", or both, each running over their original route- better than it could be served by a second train running the California Zephyr's route.

The Hilltopper was a poor use of resources. Amtrak in the late 70s had the northeast-to-midwest map criss-crossed by more than a half-dozen trains- Cardinal, Hilltopper, National Limited, Broadway Limited, Lake Shore Limited, Shenandoah, Niagara Rainbow, many of which served stations within minutes of each other.

Meanwhile, all of South Dakota, most of Wyoming, Colorado, Nevada, Iowa and Nebraska saw few trains.

Now, we'd all like to see more trains. I know I would. But their location and implementation needs to be better suited to serving America as a whole, and creating an overall system, then to benefit somebody like Stagger's own constituents.

 

[PRR 60]

As far as I know the specific legal requirement for Amtrak to serve the Cardinal cities was removed about 10 years ago.

 

[MattW]

What amuzes me to no end is that there is no North-South rail linkage except on the coasts, and the CONOL. You'd think that Amtrak would institute connecting routes so people wouldn't have to go all the way to Chicago or California, or the NEC to go North or South.

 

[JohnF]

What amuzes me to no end is that there is no North-South rail linkage except on the coasts, and the CONOL. You'd think that Amtrak would institute connecting routes so people wouldn't have to go all the way to Chicago or California, or the NEC to go North or South.

Well I don't think there ever were very many that did not originate or terminate at Chicago. We had the Texas Zephyr from Dallas to Denver. A route that Amtrak should have restored years ago. And we had the Twin Star Rocket from Houston-Dallas/Ft Worth/Kansas City to Minneapolis/St Paul. A remenant of this exists as the Hearland Flyer. Then there was the Texas Chief from Houston-Ft Worth-KC-Chicago. It lasted into Amtrak only to be killed by the Carter Admin. Farther West you had the Pioneer and Desert Wind through SLC which Amtrak killed. East there were the Chicago-Florida trains. That's about all I can think of that were important. You can see that Texas has been pretty much devastated by Amtrak with little service. Missing also is a St Louis-Colorado connection.

You forget the Texas Eagle which links Texas and St Louis and Chicago. Other than the CONOL it is pretty much the only other north-south connection left through mid-America.

 

[the_traveler]

What amuzes me to no end is that there is no North-South rail linkage except on the coasts, and the CONOL. You'd think that Amtrak would institute connecting routes so people wouldn't have to go all the way to Chicago or California, or the NEC to go North or South.

Yes, I agree. And with the timing of the Crescent and the fact that the SL runs 3 times a week, the routing given (not that I would complain :lol: ) for SDL-MEM goes via WAS and CHI!

 

[access bob]

What amuzes me to no end is that there is no North-South rail linkage except on the coasts, and the CONOL. You'd think that Amtrak would institute connecting routes so people wouldn't have to go all the way to Chicago or California, or the NEC to go North or South.

Well I don't think there ever were very many that did not originate or terminate at Chicago. We had the Texas Zephyr from Dallas to Denver. A route that Amtrak should have restored years ago. And we had the Twin Star Rocket from Houston-Dallas/Ft Worth/Kansas City to Minneapolis/St Paul. A remenant of this exists as the Hearland Flyer. Then there was the Texas Chief from Houston-Ft Worth-KC-Chicago. It lasted into Amtrak only to be killed by the Carter Admin. Farther West you had the Pioneer and Desert Wind through SLC which Amtrak killed. East there were the Chicago-Florida trains. That's about all I can think of that were important. You can see that Texas has been pretty much devastated by Amtrak with little service. Missing also is a St Louis-Colorado connection.

You forget the Texas Eagle which links Texas and St Louis and Chicago. Other than the CONOL it is pretty much the only other north-south connection left through mid-America.

need a NW-SE route such as a Portland-Salt Lake-Denver-Dallas train maybe via WY

also a Thru the Center train such as WAS-KC-SL-Denver

plenty of convienent connections too

Bob

 

[the_traveler]

also a Thru the Center train such as WAS-KC-SL-Denver

A train that runs from Washington then to KC then to St Louis then to Denver is a little roundabout - and doesn't make sense - even for Amtrak! :lol: (Maybe WAS-SL-KC-Denver would be better? )

 

[access bob]

also a Thru the Center train such as WAS-KC-SL-Denver

A train that runs from Washington then to KC then to St Louis then to Denver is a little roundabout - and doesn't make sense - even for Amtrak! :lol: (Maybe WAS-SL-KC-Denver would be better? )

;P

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Not long after it went single level, it lost the diner, of course and ran with just a Dinette, and for a month or so was actually running without a sleeper at all and just with an Amfleet Cafe when there was a Viewliner crunch. Since then they've moved the Viewliner to the back to lessen the horn noise for First Class pax, added the Diner-Lounge which was a clear step-up from the Dinette, and we've all heard the rumors of them trying to figure a way for getting the Superliners back on there without impacting the thru-passengers from the NEC too much (which added a good chunk of new riders when they went single level). I keep bugging them to put the Great Dome on the train (WAS-CHI) for peak viewing seasons in the New River Gorge. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Was there a heritage crew dorm car when they ran without a revenue sleeping car?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

No, there would be no need for one.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Okay, so if I win the mega millions jackpot, can I buy a new consist for the cardinal?

 

[AlanB]

Not long after it went single level, it lost the diner, of course and ran with just a Dinette, and for a month or so was actually running without a sleeper at all and just with an Amfleet Cafe when there was a Viewliner crunch. Since then they've moved the Viewliner to the back to lessen the horn noise for First Class pax, added the Diner-Lounge which was a clear step-up from the Dinette, and we've all heard the rumors of them trying to figure a way for getting the Superliners back on there without impacting the thru-passengers from the NEC too much (which added a good chunk of new riders when they went single level). I keep bugging them to put the Great Dome on the train (WAS-CHI) for peak viewing seasons in the New River Gorge. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Was there a heritage crew dorm car when they ran without a revenue sleeping car?

No, there would be no need for one.

I've no idea if there actually was a Heritage crew dorm on the trains that ran without Viewliner sleepers, but there definately would be a need for one. Without one, Amtrak would actually be in violation of the contract with the OBS crew. The LSA in the lounge car, as well as any coach attendants have to be provided with sleeping accomodations.

Therefore I have to assume that Amtrak provided a dorm car, or somehow otherwise compensated the employees who worked those trains until such time as the Viewliner sleepers started to run and they could be assigned rooms in that car.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Not long after it went single level, it lost the diner, of course and ran with just a Dinette, and for a month or so was actually running without a sleeper at all and just with an Amfleet Cafe when there was a Viewliner crunch. Since then they've moved the Viewliner to the back to lessen the horn noise for First Class pax, added the Diner-Lounge which was a clear step-up from the Dinette, and we've all heard the rumors of them trying to figure a way for getting the Superliners back on there without impacting the thru-passengers from the NEC too much (which added a good chunk of new riders when they went single level). I keep bugging them to put the Great Dome on the train (WAS-CHI) for peak viewing seasons in the New River Gorge. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Was there a heritage crew dorm car when they ran without a revenue sleeping car?

No, there would be no need for one.

I've no idea if there actually was a Heritage crew dorm on the trains that ran without Viewliner sleepers, but there definately would be a need for one. Without one, Amtrak would actually be in violation of the contract with the OBS crew. The LSA in the lounge car, as well as any coach attendants have to be provided with sleeping accomodations.

Therefore I have to assume that Amtrak provided a dorm car, or somehow otherwise compensated the employees who worked those trains until such time as the Viewliner sleepers started to run and they could be assigned rooms in that car.

Yup- I don't see any of the OBS crew sleeping next to me so it must be true- lol.