Amtrak Badly Needs All Bedroom Viewliner Sleepers

[Green Maned Lion]

This years train trip next month will take us to Chicago on the Capitol Limited. It is a Superliner train and has over a dozen bedrooms available . We booked one going both ways for this trip and it was around $300 each way. As is our tradition we will soon start planning for our next trip. Among the cities we are considering visiting are New Orleans and Indianapolis, served by the Crecent and Cardinal that originate in NYC. Both are Viewliner trains and like the LSL the sleeper cars on both contain mainly Roomettes. We find that only two bedrooms per sleeper car are available and even if you book 9 months out the prices are over $500 per night while the roomettes are about $166. We have nothing against roomettes but my wife is 6' tall and I'm 5 11" which makes it a bit tight in a roomette.

My point is that Amtrak makes it very expensive to book a bedroom on these LD Viewliner trains as they keep the supply limited. I am just hoping that the next generation of Viewliners are designed with more bedrooms so that taller travelers like ourselves can book a somewhat affordable bedroom. We understand that overnight bedroom accomodations will never be cheap and we don't mind spending $300 or so extra for a room but on those Viewliner trains we've seen rooms priced at over $800. That IMO is an insane pricing level. For that little cubby hole of a room you pay more than for a suite at the Ritz Carlton.

We are just hoping that on the next generation of Viewliners, Amtrak will add a sleeper car with all bedroom so that taller passengers will be able to have a bedroom at the same price as on the Capitol, Autotrain, EB or CZ . With Amtrak there is no uniformity of price. Low bucket for one train sometimes equal high bucket for the next. Point is that Amtrak needs to make some changes if they want to continue to keep growing,

Good evening, Dlagrua, and welcome to the real world. Amtrak has been begging, pleading, down on its knees before Congress for 15 years now begging for more Viewliners to replace the rolling museum pieces they are using for baggage and dining cars. And now, they have finally gotten far enough along in that process to actually submit an RFP. Which is not a promise cars will come.

We do not know if Viewliners will be ordered within the next year. The current Viewliners are junk. I'm not sitting here wondering if they are going to get first class lounges, or all bedroom sleepers, or domes. I'm wondering if 5 or 10 years from now, Amtrak will have the equipment to offer checked baggage or full service dining on single level trains. I'm wondering if 15 years from now, when these POS Viewliners have reached the end of their life cycle (point to keep in mind: THE VIEWLINERS WERE NOT BUILT BY BUDD OR PULLMAN!) if Amtrak will have sleeper accomodations on their single level trains.

Go back and read the story on the first generation of Viewliners. They were designed to be 12-2-1 cars from the start. Why? Because careful calculations determined that this was the best revenue configuration for the cars. Now they are asking for 25 more cars. They, too, are going to be 12-2-1 cars. You want all Bedroom cars? Go ask Congress for them.

Amtrak is asking for three kinds of cars right now, all of which make no sense to politicos living in Washington, where trains are Regionals and Acelas, most of whom have never been on an overnight train! Why, they ask, do we, the people of the United States, need to subsidize the purchase of these rolling bordellos for the wealthy to frolic on the rails? Fresh cooked waited table service cars? Hot damn, they don't do fresh cooking in restaurants anymore, why do they need it on trains?

If it wasn't for some nut jobs plowing planes into the World Trade Center 10 years ago, THERE WOULD LIKELY BE NO LONG DISTANCE TRAINS. Possibly even no Amtrak at all.

First class lounge cars? Get real. Amtrak needs to go to Congress and explain cars that will pay for themselves. All bedroom cars will not do that. They are more trouble than they are worth. Amtrak wants to preserve the long distance train network. They know that if they ask for frivolities they are going to look ridiculous. And they can't do that.

Furthermore, just in case you were wondering, the beds in roomettes are, in fact, longer than the beds in the Bedrooms. So a tall person would be better off in a roomette actually. And at 5'11, 300 lbs, travelling with my 6'1" tall father who is not a light weight, I have no idea what you are talking about with this "not enough space" balderdash.

 

[MikeM]

Good evening, Dlagrua, and welcome to the real world. Amtrak has been begging, pleading, down on its knees before Congress for 15 years now begging for more Viewliners to replace the rolling museum pieces they are using for baggage and dining cars. And now, they have finally gotten far enough along in that process to actually submit an RFP. Which is not a promise cars will come.

My, we're a little cranky, aren't we? h34r:

I think this whole discussion has been a series of "wouldn't it be nice" wishes, knowing full well when we wake up in the morning, we'll be fighting to get the basics to run the trains we have. Already we're seeing articles like this recent post in a major blog discussing how high speed rail could collapse due to lack of interest and funding. Imagine how Amtrak will fare, with their limited scope, once a day network in most of the nation.

I hope we'll see some movement on new cars, it seems like current management is pushing harder to get something going, and I think the Obama administration is behind them. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the crossfire between the Democrats and Republicans in the coming months, if Amtrak is able to secure the needed capital for rolling stock, infrastructure improvements, and the like.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Please excuse my reali- er, I mean cynicism. It comes with the territory, I guess.

 

[jis]

All I'm asking for are Viewliner trains where they can offer more bedrooms than they now have and sell them at a price comparable to what they charge on the Superliners. Sure I'd like to see the lounge bedroom cars but lets shoot low. I just suggest that Amtrak does it like the Superliners with 50% roomettes and 50% bedrooms in the sleeper cars. I see no logic in the reasoning behind the two bedroom per car capacity of the Viewliners. Perhaps Amtrak believes that most people prefer roomettes???.

Amtrak actually took the trouble at one time to try to estimate what mix would be appropriate and they came up with the ratio that they have.

BTW, since when do Superliners have 50% roomette and 50% bedroom? They have 14 roomettes and 7 bedrooms including H, that is 33% bedrooms. Viewliners have 12 roomettes and 3 bedrooms including H, that is 20% bedrooms, They could have done a 10/4 instead and that would have made it 40% bedrooms, which would have been more that in the Superliners, and retrospect may have been better. Back then trains were running with 3 or 4 10/6s plus a Slumbercoach, so guess where that ratio came from!

Overall the trick is to have more cars per train, and that is not possible until Congress decides to fund the purchase of more cars. It is not like Amtrak out of spite holds the inventory low.

 

[Donctor]

Please excuse my reali- er, I mean cynicism. It comes with the territory, I guess.

And you're absolutely right. Beneath the abrasive, off-putting demeanor, there is a lot of truth. As I explained at a bogus community meeting about CTA service in a "minority" neighborhood, there are plenty of things that would be "nice" and might satisfy some riders, but with transit it will always be about the bottom line. If said transit agency does try to make real these "nice" propositions, funding will inevitably be cut due to ridiculous funding requests. And then there won't be anything for the riders to be dissatisfied with. It's pretty analogous to Amtrak's situation, at least in this respect.

 

[MikeM]

Please excuse my reali- er, I mean cynicism. It comes with the territory, I guess.

And you're absolutely right. Beneath the abrasive, off-putting demeanor, there is a lot of truth. As I explained at a bogus community meeting about CTA service in a "minority" neighborhood, there are plenty of things that would be "nice" and might satisfy some riders, but with transit it will always be about the bottom line. If said transit agency does try to make real these "nice" propositions, funding will inevitably be cut due to ridiculous funding requests. And then there won't be anything for the riders to be dissatisfied with. It's pretty analogous to Amtrak's situation, at least in this respect.

I'd agree too. I know where GML is coming from, he's as passionate about Amtrak as the rest of us fools...

 

[dlagrua]

There is a ton of info presented here and rather than respond in mico detail I will just say two things.

1. Bedrooms take up about twice the area of a roomette. If Amtrak could only fit 4 , 5 or 7 bedrooms in the next generation of Viewliners and sell them at twice the price of the roomettes, they would take in the same revenue. Instead they put two bedrooms on a car and demand zips the price up to $500-$800 per night. Right now Amtrak takes in more money per sq ft in the bedrooms than they do in the roomettes.

2. As for the space in the roomettes. Sleeping space is fine but its the sit down space, specifically legroom, that is tight, especially if you are tall or heavy set.

This is all wishful thinking anyway as the GML is right in that who knows what when or even if we will see more sleepers on the single story trains. My guess is that Amtrak will always have them as the Viewliner trains serve the major cities from NYC. I can't see Amtrak having no sleepers on the LD trains from New York City. If they did this Amtrak would lose a good portion of the ridership. Can anyone sayTalgo?

As for the future. Ridership on the rails continues to grow in popularity. The growth curve is up not down and equipment needs to be added accordingly. I believe that any investment that Amtrak will make in equipment will pay for itself in higher sales and revenue.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The ridership growth is, primarily, in day trains. We are getting LD over night growth for the first time in about 20 years now. Amtrak wants new sleepers. They'd probably LIKE to do a lot of the things we want them to do. Amtrak doesn't know they can get them.

 

[dlagrua]

The ridership growth is, primarily, in day trains. We are getting LD over night growth for the first time in about 20 years now. Amtrak wants new sleepers. They'd probably LIKE to do a lot of the things we want them to do. Amtrak doesn't know they can get them.

I guess that's the sad reality of it. We will all have to wait and see if congress will appropriate funds for Amtrak to buy new equipment.

I predict that as air travel regulations get increasingly more convoluted and the TSA imposes more intrusive and dehumanizing security measures; rail travel will become the more comfortable travel alternative. I don't see the coast to coast runs ever competitng with the airlines but the overnight runs like the AT, LSL, CL, CST, SM, CDL should experience good growth. You don't lose a whole bunch of time on those trains as on a good portion of the way you sleep.

 

[Donctor]

If they did this Amtrak would lose a good portion of the ridership. Can anyone sayTalgo?

There are Talgo sets with sleeping cars/modules. I rode TrénHotel's Pau Casals (Barcelona-Zürich) in April, and it was awful.

Consist:

Re 4/4" SBB

TG6-612 ---- Power car

TWL6g-603 -- 6-roomette sleeper

TWL6g-603 -- 6-roomette sleeper

TWL6d-623 -- 5-bedroom sleeper

TWL6d-623 -- 5-bedroom sleeper

TR6-610 ---- Diner

TC6-606 ---- Kitchen/bar

TWL6g-603 -- 6-roomette sleeper

TWL6u-604 -- 5-room couchette (4 bunks/room)

TWL6u-604 -- 5-room couchette (4 bunks/room)

TWL6u-604 -- 5-room couchette (4 bunks/room)

TWL6u-604 -- 5-room couchette (4 bunks/room)

TWL6u-604 -- 5-room couchette (4 bunks/room)

TA6l ------- Coach del clase "Preferente"

TA6l ------- Coach del clase "Preferente"

TG6z-611 --- Power car

 

[Donctor]

I don't see the coast to coast runs ever competitng with the airlines but the overnight runs like the AT, LSL, CL, CST, SM, CDL should experience good growth. You don't lose a whole bunch of time on those trains as on a good portion of the way you sleep.

The NYP Lake Shore is doing quite well right now. Auto Train might break even one day (though that would be a ways off, and more of a dream than reality). I don't see the Coast Starlight ever being much more than a tourist train (because 12 hours simply isn't practical EMY-LAX, and because UP is complete ****). In terms of the Meteor, a few people predict the return of the Silver Palm. I seriously doubt that the Cardinal will see significant growth, as its future is entirely unclear. *cough*

 

[AlanB]

How many bedrooms could you add, replacing the roomettes? Four, maybe (yielding 6 + "H"). Those four bedrooms would need to bring in 12 roomettes worth of revenue.

You could add 6 bedrooms if all 12 roomettes were taken out. That would set the car up for 1 H-room, 8 Bedrooms, 1 largely uneeded public shower, and one roomette for the attendant.

 

[AlanB]

What if instead of all this half and half business it was a full first class lounge car, but have it built so that it would transition easily to a baggage car at the last part of its life cycle. I just hate seeing money put into new baggage cars when it should be put into things the passenger will actually use.

If passengers actually don't use baggage cars for their baggage, then that argument would hold

And after watching the crew use hammers and crowbars for 15-20 minutes to open the Empire Builder's baggage car last Christmas, I agree these cars really need to be replaced.

Actually since the Viewliner cars are modular cars (meaning that the rooms or other furnishings are built else where and then just slid into the car and bolted down), such an idea is quite possible. One would only need build luggage modules, slid out the rooms, slid in the luggage moduals, and viola a baggage car.

 

[AlanB]

The ridership growth is, primarily, in day trains. We are getting LD over night growth for the first time in about 20 years now.

Actually Amtrak has been seeing growth in the LD's since at least 2003. I'm not sure about prior to that point, since Amtrak didn't start releasing the route performance stats until David Gunn's tenure as President, but every year since that point has seen an increase technically. Last year officially saw a slight decrease, thanks to the $4 gas in 2008 that distorted the normal growth paterns.

I seem to recall seeing stories pre-2003 that also touted increased ridership on the LD's, but I can't prove that.

 

[AlanB]

I don't see the coast to coast runs ever competitng with the airlines but the overnight runs like the AT, LSL, CL, CST, SM, CDL should experience good growth. You don't lose a whole bunch of time on those trains as on a good portion of the way you sleep.

The NYP Lake Shore is doing quite well right now. Auto Train might break even one day (though that would be a ways off, and more of a dream than reality). I don't see the Coast Starlight ever being much more than a tourist train (because 12 hours simply isn't practical EMY-LAX, and because UP is complete ****). In terms of the Meteor, a few people predict the return of the Silver Palm. I seriously doubt that the Cardinal will see significant growth, as its future is entirely unclear. *cough*

The LSL is doing quite well as far as ridership is concerned, but not in dollars & cents. The LSL lost $31.7 Million last year against its operating costs. Contrast that however with the Auto Train, which might not be as big of a dream as you think, as it only lost $6.6 Million against its above the rails costs.

As for the Cardinal, there is no way to predict how it would do financially, but ridership wise it would do quite well if indeed it goes daily.

 

[dlagrua]

I don't see the coast to coast runs ever competitng with the airlines but the overnight runs like the AT, LSL, CL, CST, SM, CDL should experience good growth. You don't lose a whole bunch of time on those trains as on a good portion of the way you sleep.

The NYP Lake Shore is doing quite well right now. Auto Train might break even one day (though that would be a ways off, and more of a dream than reality). I don't see the Coast Starlight ever being much more than a tourist train (because 12 hours simply isn't practical EMY-LAX, and because UP is complete ****). In terms of the Meteor, a few people predict the return of the Silver Palm. I seriously doubt that the Cardinal will see significant growth, as its future is entirely unclear. *cough*

The LSL is doing quite well as far as ridership is concerned, but not in dollars & cents. The LSL lost $31.7 Million last year against its operating costs. Contrast that however with the Auto Train, which might not be as big of a dream as you think, as it only lost $6.6 Million against its above the rails costs.

As for the Cardinal, there is no way to predict how it would do financially, but ridership wise it would do quite well if indeed it goes daily.

I made this point a while back and I'll mention it again. We keep hearing how Amtrak continually operates at a deficit but what is never mentioned is the massive billions that the government collects in federal income taxes from Amtrak employees. That money is going back into the pot, perhaps a different pot but goverment still has it. Had it not been for Amtrak, they would not have those tax dollars. Next figure in the state income taxes, sales taxes and all of the support services that Amtrak buys and needs. These keep other businesses thriving. Those businesses feed the tax revenue base as well. If you look at the big picture, it may not be a loss at all.

What is puzzling is that most of the trains that we have taken have been packed so the posted loses are hard to understand. The NEC, AT, LSL, CST, CL, & CZ are all enjoying strong ridership. Many times those trains even sell out.

 

[Joseph A. Elliot]

Two other factors that Amtrak must consider when building trains and services...1. Additional cars may require additional power, and additional power is in short supply and 2., Labor agreements dictate car staffing, so a 1/2 bedroom / 1/2 lounge would drive the labor cost per passenger up quite a bit over a full sleeping car.