Thanks. That means I won’t be traveling by Amtrak to Vancouver anytime soon. I would have considered it if Talgo or even Venture large-windowed stock was operating the route.
Amtrak Cascades Service discussion
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west point
Engineer
Willbridge: Can you put the information to Cascades service that the Gulf coast service is going to be delayed. Maybe it can get the probable Horizons that were going to gulf coast for this winter to instead to go to make an extra car for the Cascades trains?
I'll pass the idea along.
Just recently watched the video by doc7austin of his trip from Seattle to Vancouver BC where he referred to the Horizon cars as the "prison cars". Although I think that had as much to do with the alleged "prison guard" mentality of the conductor he interacted with as the cars themselves. Otherwise the video was pretty interesting. I hadn't realized that ride was so scenic.
sitzplatz17
Lead Service Attendant
Seattle to Vancouver, BC is probably the prettiest section of coastal route in the US now. Until the Point Defiance bypass I would have argued that Tacoma - Olympia was the best, but now that that's not a thing anymore I'd say SEA-VAC wins it. Though that also depends on your taste, the California sections of coast are pretty great too!
As an aside, it looks like 503 departed with a Talgo set this morning! Haven't seen the Talgo on 503 in awhile. It's been running on the 500/505 pair since at least April.
moselman66
Train Attendant
Just out of curiosity (and hopefully not going OT too much) what underlies the distaste for the Horizon cars? Just that they are kind of tired and old? I don't think they behave the best in winter conditions but that's less of a concern in the PNW than in the Chicago state-supported markets.
I've ridden Horizons on the Hiawatha a couple of times. The interiors are pretty much the same as an Amfleet 1 coach, except that the restrooms aren't as nice as the Amfleets. The ride at 80 mph was perfectly fine and on a par with the Amfleets. Everybody says they're no good in the winter, but there was a time in the 2000s when they had a Horizon coach in the consist of the Vermonter during some winter rides I took in pretty snowy weather. (I didn't ride in it, because I was in business class, which was an Amfleet 1.)
Not sure if it was updated in the refresh, but many people did not like the lighting.
The Horizons have harsh, direct lighting, whereas the Amfleets have softer, more indirect lighting (it still keeps the car just as well lit, but instead of the lights shining right at you, they reflect off the ceiling to create, in my opinion, a more subdued atmosphere).
Beyond that, the rider experience between the two types is pretty similar.
jis
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I think there is an additional factor that at least I notice. Because of the color of the reflective surface in the Amfleet, the spectrum of the ambient light is warmer in the Amfleets than that in the Horizons with direct fluorescent light as it used to be. They could have fixed this when moving to LED. I don't know if they did. It used to be really harsh and cold feel of the light in the Horizons IIRC.
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If they did indeed change the lighting to LED (haven't been on one) it would not have been difficult to spec a lower color temperature light.
Keep in mind that regular customers are comparing the Horizon fleet with the Talgos. When Oregon and Washington show pictures of trains, they don't show Horizon equipment. They blurred the cars in this October 2023 poster art for a one-time attraction in Eugene.
But otherwise, Talgos.
My first choice would be Talgo, the second Amfleet, and third Horizon. I've ridden six-axle heavyweights on the PDX<>SEA segment and they were better lit and the scenery was easier to watch than in the Horizon cars. Ditto with 1950's coaches with incandescent lighting.
But otherwise, Talgos.
My first choice would be Talgo, the second Amfleet, and third Horizon. I've ridden six-axle heavyweights on the PDX<>SEA segment and they were better lit and the scenery was easier to watch than in the Horizon cars. Ditto with 1950's coaches with incandescent lighting.
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Chris I
Service Attendant
Compared to the Talgos, it's the tiny windows, generally clunky/old feel, and lack of tilting on our very curvy corridor makes it less comfortable both for sitting and walking around. Talgos also have a better bistro/dining car area. But yes, the seats on the Horizons are perfectly comfortable.
In this evening's WSDOT briefing on the Cascades Corridor Service Development Plan the staff projected getting two more SEA<>PDX turns in service by the end of the year. (Or one by the end of the year and the second early next year). So, given that detailed work is underway, it may be that any additional cars for existing trains won't be requested until the new trains are in service and loads are redistributed.
I've attached a pdf of the previous six-train Cascades schedule, which was only in effect for one-day. It might give you an idea of what the parties involved are thinking.
trimetbusfan
OBS Chief
I'm glad WSDOT has announced that. Based on what I've heard from the crews that work this route, they have already pushed back the restoration date at least one. (Was initially supposed to open 10/2). Supposedly due to lack of equipment.
I'm not sure if they have the additional horizon equipment needed, but also the Cascades service is short on at least one NPCU. The 503/508 trainset has not regularly run with a cabbage car in many months. They either have had a diesel engine on both ends, or a diesel engine on one end (making crews have to wye the train at each terminal). Additionally, they have started to run a Viewliner baggage car on this train to support checked bags.
The changes aren't even loaded onto the reservation system yet (which in the past has been done around a month or so before the service change), which makes me start to doubt the end-of-year date.
west point
Engineer
Willbridge. Noted that only one round trip to Vancouver BC can allow for passengers to go to stations south of Seattle. Do you have any idea how that traffic is? Any thoughts if in future a connections to the other RT to VAN would be worth operating.
The pair of trips north in the morning and south in the evening has done well, but as you noted, they have no connections with points south of Seattle. To my knowledge the only time under Amtrak that there has been a connection was when an "overnight" special was run for Thanksgiving or Christmas to balance equipment.
If it were up to me, I would provide a bus connection, similar to the night Surfliner service between Los Angeles and San Diego. The only problem that I could see with that is keeping Portland Union Station open for two dozen or so passengers. It could run "discharge only" south from Tacoma.
Until 1959 or so there was an overnight train on the PDX<>SEA pool line, which made every stop for mail and express purposes. It linked the SP trains at Portland with the GN trains at Seattle with sleepers and walk-over seat coaches on a six-hour running time. My dad rode it as a standee in WWII. That would drive people crazy now.
In modern times the Coast Starlight has been the top candidate for a mirror image train on a two night-one day schedule, daylight through the Cascades and the Shasta country. That could fit nicely with the orphan SEA<>VAC Cascades.
Some of the five alternatives under the WSDOT lens include a third train between Seattle and Vancouver, BC. That would make an added PDX<>VAC train possible and might make it EUG<>VAC. They also are looking at additional SEA<>BEL trains with BEL<>VAC bus connections. They could run through SEA.
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JWM
Service Attendant
A midday departure from both Vancouver and Seattle would be good and would strengthen ridership.
Would you elaborate? I do not understand why you won't be traveling - Taigo or venture mean nothing to me.
Talgos are European Styled Consists that were used heavily on the Cascade Route, and Venture Cars are new Cars( based on a European desigh) just starting to enter service on several Corridor Routes in the US.
Lots of us prefer them over the Horizon Cars, which are Older,Tired and not very comfortable.
Here's a Talgo train, in the "Starbucks" colors seen on the Cascades equipment.
Here's a Horizon train, in generic Amtrak colors.
Here's an artist's conception of a train of the 2025/2026 Venture cars in a Cascades paint scheme.
In the meantime, publicity art is waffling on what the trains look like, as you might ride in a Horizon car one time and a Talgo the next. This one promoted travel to Eugene for the eclipse. 
If they intend to go back to the 2017 6-train schedule, I think that was to be run with the same size fleet as the 4-train schedule. The added trains were on the edges of the day. I've been meaning to calculate that, but have been busy with other projects.
According to ODOT, in addition to the two Talgos, there are four sets of Horizon cars. They don't expect much chance of additional cars until the new cars come in 2025/2026.
In looking at the 2017 schedule vs. the present, what was added were 6:00 a.m./6:20 a.m. departures in both directions, a 5:40 p.m. departure from Portland, and a 7:45 p.m. last train out of Seattle. The only one in prime time is 5:40 p.m. from Portland (long ago covered by NP407). However, in following the high bucket/sold-out patterns on this corridor, it looks as though some price-sensitive passengers are willing to shift to marginal hours. And those early morning trips should attract riders from the intermediate cities who want to get into PDX or SEA before lunch.
I had an error in my msg above. The Cascades pool has six Horizon train-sets, so with the Talgos that makes eight. The current schedule appears to require five trainsets. If they go back to a schedule similar to the 2017 times (albeit five minutes slower PDX>SEA or SEA>PDX) it looks as though that will require seven trainsets, leaving one spare. Perhaps they have not gone after more cars until they can see how loads and revenues redistribute when the additional trips are in service.
Some layovers are pretty long, but they probably don't have the servicing staff size that could turn NP408 into NP407 in Portland in 45 minutes -- with all the seats facing forward. With the 2017 schedule, it looks as though a round-trip SEA<>BEL could be inserted or an 11:45 p.m. train in both directions SEA<>PDX. Not very promising.
One weakness that likely is an accommodation for Sounder is the nearly four hour gap south from SEA bracketing the PM peak hours. With the restoration of Train 509 at 7:45 p.m., Train 507 could depart SEA earlier than its current and 2017 time of 6:10 p.m.
Some layovers are pretty long, but they probably don't have the servicing staff size that could turn NP408 into NP407 in Portland in 45 minutes -- with all the seats facing forward. With the 2017 schedule, it looks as though a round-trip SEA<>BEL could be inserted or an 11:45 p.m. train in both directions SEA<>PDX. Not very promising.
One weakness that likely is an accommodation for Sounder is the nearly four hour gap south from SEA bracketing the PM peak hours. With the restoration of Train 509 at 7:45 p.m., Train 507 could depart SEA earlier than its current and 2017 time of 6:10 p.m.
I'm thinking of doing a Cacades turn to Tacoma tomorrow, if I can have the opportunity to ride a Talgo. Anyone know whether any trains regularly use them?
trimetbusfan
OBS Chief
From what I've heard from some of the employees that work this crew base is that they have the equipment, but are waiting on Sound Transit to sign off on it.
